No commercial games have had a swastika for as long as I can remember. I understand why but purists of the WWII genre have complained for years about the lack of Nazi symbols in games related to the era.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple Removes Civil War Games From App Store Over Confederate Flag Usage [Updated]
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
No commercial games have had a swastika for as long as I can remember. I understand why but purists of the WWII genre have complained for years about the lack of Nazi symbols in games related to the era.
The recognizable rectangular full field Dixie Cross became the "final, historically accurate, recognizable flag of the Confederacy" in the 1950's to support segregation, jim crow, the KKK (version 2.0) and lynching. No one said the Dixie Cross wasn't a historically accurate feature of the Confederacy, what it was not was the catch-all representation of the Confederacy in the 1860s that it is often depicted as. That's an "even if that matters". MUCH more important is what the Dixie Cross came to mean, and what it means today as a symbol from the 1950s and 60s.
Let them come after me. Hate speech is free speech. In the history of Lenny Bruce, George Carlin and even Steve Jobs, all of those guys had plenty to say that got them in a lot of trouble and they ended up on top.
First they came for the Confederate Flag bearers but I did not have a Confederate Flag so I did not speak up ...
It all depends on how much good history is placed upon a symbol as weighed against the bad. Every flag in history has represented at least some atrocities. But when that flag, that symbol, becomes intrinsic to a hateful ideal, none of its positive attributes will ever be able to outweigh it.
The Swastika is a good example of this. You could argue a ton of positive aspects to it, but most people will immediately think of hate pogroms and the Holocaust when they lay eyes on it. Same with the Confederate flag. You could argue it represents the fight for state rights against a tyrannical federal government, while others see it as symbol of hypocrisy, the fight against a government that refused to allow one human being to own another as disposable property. Since most people see it as the latter, you'll never be able to argue its positive aspects to them.
I've been quietly reading every post for pages now. I must say I'm a bit astonished at Apples decision here and I'm surprised that there are those that agree with this decision. I have a question to those who agree with Apple here. In your opinion, how does this differ from films such as Selma, 12 years a Slave, or American History X? Would you have films of that nature be banned as well?
You can't delete history! This feels like a scene in Family Guy regarding how Germany allegedly deals with the holocaust.
Brian: why is there nothing in the history book between 1939 and 1945?
German: we were on vacation! Ask Poland!
Brian: why is there nothing in the history book between 1939 and 1945?
German: we were on vacation! Ask Poland!
...or people could just not get so worked up about abstract symbols (with the rest of us socially obliged to indulge others' hypersensitivity), but hey, I can always dream.
Do you have any peer reviewed studies you can cite on national perception of the Confederate Flag?
Easy. Nothing has been "banned." A private company has made a private decision to not sell items that it feels have a symbol used in an inaccurate and offensive way. I happen to support their decision and think more highly of them for it. My opinion is based, in part, on my assumption that they would allow the re issuance of games with historically accurate symbols without the Dixie Cross being unnecessarily and prominently displayed outside the correct context. Just like Tim Cook's stance on gay marriage, it's a private decision to exercise a private opinion and any who wants can agree, disagree, protest, picket, boycott or whatever. Or they can learn something, get on Apple's bandwagon and contribute to educating and healing a terribly divided, sick nation.
The second succession is coming, and it will start in Texas over Wind Turbine subsidies. Waco will become the Capital of the 2nd Confederacy. 
Interesting idea.
For the record I think the best bet for these games is to change all the flags to blue or red. Otherwise they should be historically accurate, as should the colour of the skin of all of the combatants.
I still live in NoVA. There are national parks dedicated to many of the battles that occurred in VA (Bull Run being a prominent one). I understand removing the flag from government buildings, and other products, but removing it from products that are related to history of the civil war is an extreme move.
The KKK, Dixiecrats, and other groups who supported oppression of African Americans, were successful in associating the Confederate battle flag in question with their cause. Not enough people protected the image of the flag as a symbol of inclusion to counteract the hate groups. So they won. Google pictures of people waving the flag, and you'll see either hate groups, or smiling groups of nearly 100% white skin expressing "southern pride". There is the odd picture of a black person with a Confederate flag (e.g., Ru Paul), but they are few and far between.
On the other hand, civil rights groups adopted the American flag, and prevented it from becoming a symbol that is associated with oppression.
The Confederate flag in question is not falling out of favor "simply because some mindless bigots use it". It's because the rest of us did nothing to dilute the meanings of oppression that those mindless bigots gave it.
I think you're giving those groups too much power. The choice of this as the flag is one of the biggest no-brainers ever. The same choice would have been made in 1866, absent any committees to craft something new.
Considering we're having this conversation now over the bodies of 9 dead churchgoers, you could maybe realize that the reason why some people get so worked up over silly abstract symbols is because others take them so seriously.
You mean the year after the defeat and total disbanding of the only remaining vestige of the Confederacy - a unit that had a modified version of it as its standard? "Would have in 1866"
First they came for the mass murderer, but I was not a mass murderer, so I did not speak up.
Then they came for the flags of the mass murderer on public buildings, but I didn't have a flag on a public building that looked like the flag the mass murderer posed with, so I did not speak up.
Then they came for the people who sell those flags. Well, actually the people who sold those flags decided not to sell them any more, but I thought that was perfectly within the rights of those people to decide what they would and wouldn't sell, so I spoke up in favor of their rights.
Then they came for the flag bearers. Well that hasn't actually happened yet...
This!
Speech and expression should not be replaced/censored. Media and content should not be stifled. The flag is not responsible. The ideas that have surrounded the flag are-attack those ideas-educate against the flaws in those ideas.
The fact that someone's uses a flag, symbol, or image, could offend someone, so all these flags, symbols, or images must be replaced is asinine. Anyone can find offense in any given piece, whether art, literature, theater, media, games, or any other communication of an idea. Again, anyone can find offense in any given piece. Banning and eliminating an idea is never a good idea. It sets easy precedence for such issues to run amuck.
Your posts are almost incoherent to me and you have a tendency to really pick at unimportant details. When I said "banned" I meant by Apple. Apple is a public, not private company, but I don't want to nitpick unimportant details. Regardless I'm aware that they are free to ban what they like from the app store. I assumed that was implied. The question is would you also support a ban, by Apple, from the iTunes store on films such as Selma, American History X, and 12 years a slave?
Last edited:
It seems as though context was not taken into account here. This seems motivated purely by current events and the politically-charged national climate. Are they removing WWII games that feature the Nazi flag as well? Nope.
The implied point was that your hypothetical makes no sense, because Apple hasn't done anything like that. IF Apple banned such movies (because why?), I would not "support" that act, and I would be annoyed. They have not done that, and they won't. And you know it.
The "slippery slope" is the last philosophical resort when you can't find any other justification. In this case, your attempted use of it is entirely non-sequitur, and much less coherent than anything I have said.
Clear enough?
Muting discriminating statements like flags, symbols or paroles is not such a bad thing as you might think. In Switzerland, racism is not only intolerable, it is forbidden by law and can be punished with fines or prison. Meaning the citzcens have voted to cut freedom of speech in order to silent those few annoying people speaking loudest and hence being able to calm down alltogether.
20 years after that law has been passed, you start to understand that it actually works.
20 years after that law has been passed, you start to understand that it actually works.
No, not particularly clear. You're post seems to me to be a denial of reality and an attack on a straw man.
In reality Apple has done something exactly like that. They have banned not just a symbol but multiple games from their store because it contains a symbol that they view as a sign of hatred. American History X contains many symbols that could be viewed as a sign of hatred. It literally contains a scene of a white supremacist curb stomping a black man.
When mass murderers are allowed to appropriate symbols to the point where society must be cleansed of them for the good of the social fabric, we all lose. It gives them entirely too much power, but we live in a shallow, image-obsessed culture where a lot of people have a lot of time and not much to do, so here we are.
"A denial of reality" says the guy that raises the impossible straw man of a total banning of graphic depictions of upsetting things.
The prominent display of the full field rectangular Dixie Cross, today, has one central meaning. Recent events drove that fact center stage and a lot of people, including me, came to some realizations about the bigger meaning of the widespread acceptance of the symbol. The use of this specific symbol in a widespread context that is not actually particularly historically accurate is not acceptable, and that is why Apple made this particular call and why I support it.