Apple Removes Fortnite From App Store [Update: Epic Files Lawsuit Against Apple]

[sigsegv]

Here’s the thing I feel many people are not seeing.

The iOS App Store is home to a ton of developers, many of which produce free apps that don’t earn them any revenue (or at least, not the sort that Apple can levy a 30% tax on).

I don’t think the annual $100 developer fee comes anywhere close to covering the cost of hosting and vetting and supporting the app. So the rest of the money has to come from somewhere (assuming we don’t want the App Store to be run at a loss).

So Apple could either increase the annual fee (which would penalise your small developers, especially if they are still in school and are coding for fun or as an experiment), or tax a percentage of everyone’s earnings (so the more successful ones pay more, which in turn goes towards offsetting the costs incurred by the less profitable apps).

Increasing the fee would serve to drive away the very developers that Apple is trying to attract to their platform, so I can see why Apple is hesitant to do so. Larger companies like amazon or Uber or even Epic have no problems paying a few hundred dollars a year, and Apple doesn’t need to court them. They will be on iOS by virtue of iOS being home to the best customers, so this platform is impossible for them to ignore.

Second, US antitrust law focuses on whether harm has been done to the consumer. Developers by definition are not Apple’s customers, so I don’t think any developer has a case. Not in the US at least.

Epic wants to break away from the control Apple has over their own App Store by introducing their own App Store, but if you think developers will pass on reduced App Store fees to consumers if and when this happens , then you clearly don’t understand how businesses work. Or what happens when taxes are cut for the wealthy.

I am willing to go out on a limb and say that Epic will be the one to end up on the wrong side of history, as is anyone who takes their side on this day. If you are upset about Apple pulling Fortnite from the App Store for violating App Store guidelines, direct your anger at Epic Games / Fortnite, not Apple, because Epic is the one who knowingly and wilfully broke the rules in the first place.

Like I said - if it’s a fight epic wants, it’s a fight I hope Apple will give them. Expect no quarter, and give none.

Completely missing Apple's (and many others) business model.

They want to attract developers, so they make tools and APIs essentially free. They want developers because they want apps. They want apps because they want CONSUMERS. It's the end users that give Apple their dollars; the cost side of keeping developers is just a marketing expense. It's not a big factor in the overall scheme of things.

The biggest apps on the store are all free. Facebook, Youtube, Instagram, Netflix, etc.

Edit: in case it's not clear - Apple sees developers as a way to extract money from Apple customers. The cost of enabling developers is not the point. Thought exercise: Would Apple rather have the top 5 free apps (they get no store fees from) or Epic? You know the answer, and that's why they cut Epic loose.

 

[sirozha]

So let me ask people who are demanding Apple change or that Epic is in the right. I sign up for a Squarespace account. It is stated in their terms that I cannot have any adult material on their site. If I add it one day, and my site gets taken down, can I sue?

It’s a web site. You can host it with someone else. Apple doesn’t allow any other App Stores to be used with their iOS platform.

This would not be an issue for Google because Google allows third-party App Stores to be used with Android. So, this argument wouldn’t hold water with Google because Epic could move their app to another app Store on the Android platform.

 

[cmaier]

It’s a web site. You can host it with someone else. Apple doesn’t allow any other App Stores to be used with their iOS platform.

This would not be an issue for Google because Google allows third-party App Stores to be used with Android. So, this argument wouldn’t hold water with Google because Epic could move their app to another app Store on the Android platform.

Developers have no inalienable constitutional right to sell software on iOS, or any other platform.

 

[Ethosik]

It’s a web site. You can host it with someone else. Apple doesn’t allow any other App Stores to be used with their iOS platform.

This would not be an issue for Google because Google allows third-party App Stores to be used with Android. So, this argument wouldn’t hold water with Google because Epic could move their app to another app Store on the Android platform.

But I won't be able to have my site on Squarespace. Just like me going to another host, you can go to Android.

 

[psingh01]

But I won't be able to have my site on Squarespace. Just like me going to another host, you can go to Android.

This is a terrible analogy. moving to a different host than squarespace doesn’t make you lose customers. Your customers couldn’t care less what you use on the back end...

 

[Ethosik]

This is a terrible analogy. moving to a different host than squarespace doesn’t make you lose customers. Your customers couldn’t care less what you use on the back end...

I would actually get more customers on Android. And that is not the discussion here. I would have broke the terms of use with Squarespace. JUST like what Epic did.

 

[ArPe]

Someone should ask Tencent how many Uighurs get to play games in the detention camps.

Then we can talk about Epic’s dumb 1984 video.

 

[MyopicPaideia]

It’s a web site. You can host it with someone else. Apple doesn’t allow any other App Stores to be used with their iOS platform.

This would not be an issue for Google because Google allows third-party App Stores to be used with Android. So, this argument wouldn’t hold water with Google because Epic could move their app to another app Store on the Android platform.

So why exactly did Epic sue Google for the exact same thing? Greed. They make money off of pre-teens who are syphoning hundreds or thousands of mommy’s and daddy’s currency every year! Fortnite the game is by itself a billion dollar business. This is not about anything but Epic wanting to make more money off unwitting children and adolescents. Nothing more.

Rewind 20 years and Epic would be paying 60-70% just to get their game distributed at all and be happy to pay it!

 

[sigsegv]

Developers have no inalienable constitutional right to sell software on iOS, or any other platform.

Antitrust laws have nothing to do with constitutional rights; quite the opposite, they restrict rights in cases of market dominance.

Take a look at the AT&T antitrust case, or Standard Oil, or maybe even Microsoft in the 1990's. Nothing to do with the constitution.

 

[jetrois]

So let me ask people who are demanding Apple change or that Epic is in the right. I sign up for a Squarespace account. It is stated in their terms that I cannot have any adult material on their site. If I add it one day, and my site gets taken down, can I sue?

feels like you either dont get it or ur just stirring the pot. If i dont like my webhost becuse i wanna put up porn than i can just change hosts to someone who allows it Period U cant do that with apple devices apple makes it impossible to juust build a store. please read and have an understanding of the actual situation this is about choice not about making apple do something with the app store they own it and can do whatever they please but they dont OWN ddevices after u purches one from the store the moment u walk out of the apple store they have gotten your money and u have ownership of a device

 

[jetrois]

So why exactly did Epic sue Google for the exact same thing? Greed. They make money off of pre-teens who are syphoning hundreds or thousands of mommy’s and daddy’s currency every year! Fortnite the game is by itself a billion dollar business. This is not about anything but Epic wanting to make more money off unwitting children and adolescents. Nothing more.

Rewind 20 years and Epic would be paying 60-70% just to get their game distributed at all and be happy to pay it!

who the **** cares that 20 years ago bull shet that was 20 years ago. and 20 years from now the software landscape will be much diffrent from how it is now. its irrelevant a developer should be able to peddle there wares to whoever wants to buy it wheater it be an app porn or IAP skins for a stupid game the consumer should decide whats good for them

 

[Ethosik]

feels like you either dont get it or ur just stirring the pot. If i dont like my webhost becuse i wanna put up porn than i can just change hosts to someone who allows it Period U cant do that with apple devices apple makes it impossible to juust build a store. please read and have an understanding of the actual situation this is about choice not about making apple do something with the app store they own it and can do whatever they please but they dont OWN ddevices after u purches one from the store the moment u walk out of the apple store they have gotten your money and u have ownership of a device

It seems you do not get what happened today. That is not the point of what happened. Let me spell this out for you.

Fortnite, for months and years, was following the guidelines of Apple App Store by using In-App purchases. They changed this today to have direct purchases which broke those guidelines. So the app was removed because they broke those guidelines.

A site on Squarespace, for months and years, was following the guidelines of their terms of use. That side changed by offering adult material which broke those guidelines. So the website was taken down because that site broke those guidelines.

This has nothing to do about "only one App Store on iOS". Fortnite got removed because they broke the rules. That is it.

And people really need to stop with this "I bought my iPhone so I should own it". You do. You can throw it in a swimming pool and leave it there. What you do NOT own is the Operating System.

I own my Xbox, does that mean I can hack it to play pirated games legally? Does that mean I should force Microsoft to let me install Linux on it because I own the Xbox device?

 

[jetrois]

To be fair, what developers REALLY want is access to user data. Data they can’t get to because of Apple’s requirements. However, 30% is a nice number to rally folks around. Until, of course, you realize pretty much every store has similar or higher rates.

It’s not even defending Apple, it’s defending the idea that you should do your homework and ONLY sign contracts/enter into agreements that you are willing to accept. If you don’t like some of the terms and you can’t negotiate anything better, well, then you’ve got a decision to make.

Amazon didn’t do anything without obtaining agreement from Apple first. Epic can claim whatever they want, but right up front, Apple can claim Epic is not adhering to the rules. Kicking them off the App Store is what I expected, just like other non-compliant apps.

I think this is just like all the other “loud” apps recently. They know they’ll back down quickly and eventually because they know Apple’s terms with them is binding. They just want to make a little noise that they’re hoping eventually gets Apple to change their tune.

are you a dev? Not all of us want data too much hastle to store too many problems keeping it safe I 'd rather build my app charge a fee and keep it moving process everything on device so i dont have to jump the EU Privacy rules but there are no free trials unless its a ****** subscriptlion or IAP there are no upgrade prlices there is so much apple dosnt want to do because they make more money via subs than it weould be to brilng up a fair system so devs can be paid without harvesting data its real simple apple will do what the devs want or get replaced simple as that they sell hardware its thier bread and butter everything else is icing. the app store services all of it ICING on top they dont need it

 

[jetrois]

It seems you do not get what happened today. That is not the point of what happened. Let me spell this out for you.

Fortnite, for months and years, was following the guidelines of Apple App Store by using In-App purchases. They changed this today to have direct purchases which broke those guidelines. So the app was removed because they broke those guidelines.

A site on Squarespace, for months and years, was following the guidelines of their terms of use. That side changed by offering adult material which broke those guidelines. So the website was taken down because that site broke those guidelines.

This has nothing to do about "only one App Store on iOS". Fortnite got removed because they broke the rules. That is it.

And people really need to stop with this "I bought my iPhone so I should own it". You do. You can throw it in a swimming pool and leave it there. What you do NOT own is the Operating System.

I own my Xbox, does that mean I can hack it to play pirated games legally? Does that mean I should force Microsoft to let me install Linux on it because I own the Xbox device?

I seem to get it better than most epic picked a fight I know this isnt about winning a lawsuit its about changing legislation


and your analogy still sucks that isn't the point you keep bringing useless analogy the only way ur analogy would hold water is if the xbox was DIGITAL only. I can buy disks any major store and they will work however should legal precedent be set xbox may be facing some of this as well as PlayStation


for example like what was hlappening a few years ago with sony banning ps4s having pirate material it was found that banning accounts can prove false I do remember a user bought a used ps4 and updated it and went online and then had his account banned all of his LEGAL purcheses were down the toilet and sony hemmed and hewed about it but they couldnt really prove anything does that sound good to u it was anti consumer anti resell mentality

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Fortnite is not a store.

Fortnite sells things. Apple sells things. They’re both stores.

PLUS, I think 12% is wayyy too much. Time for the government to take action to change that.

 

[cmaier]

Antitrust laws have nothing to do with constitutional rights; quite the opposite, they restrict rights in cases of market dominance.

Take a look at the AT&T antitrust case, or Standard Oil, or maybe even Microsoft in the 1990's. Nothing to do with the constitution.

Owning a store is not a monopoly. I can’t walk into walmart and start selling stuff on my own.

 

[Ethosik]

I seem to get it better than most epic picked a fight I know this isnt about winning a lawsuit its about changing legislation


and your analogy still sucks that isn't the point you keep bringing useless analogy the only way ur analogy would hold water is if the xbox was DIGITAL only. I can buy disks any major store and they will work however should legal precedent be set xbox may be facing some of this as well as PlayStation


for example like what was hlappening a few years ago with sony banning ps4s having pirate material it was found that banning accounts can prove false I do remember a user bought a used ps4 and updated it and went online and then had his account banned all of his LEGAL purcheses were down the toilet and sony hemmed and hewed about it but they couldnt really prove anything does that sound good to u it was anti consumer anti resell mentality

You were saying that you do not own the device after you buy it from the store. People need to stop saying these things. I fail to see why my comparison is invalid. It does not need to be digital only for it to work. I don't truly 100% "own" the Xbox I buy just like people do not truly 100% "own" the iPhone they buy.

 

[jetrois]

It seems you do not get what happened today. That is not the point of what happened. Let me spell this out for you.

Fortnite, for months and years, was following the guidelines of Apple App Store by using In-App purchases. They changed this today to have direct purchases which broke those guidelines. So the app was removed because they broke those guidelines.

A site on Squarespace, for months and years, was following the guidelines of their terms of use. That side changed by offering adult material which broke those guidelines. So the website was taken down because that site broke those guidelines.

This has nothing to do about "only one App Store on iOS". Fortnite got removed because they broke the rules. That is it.

And people really need to stop with this "I bought my iPhone so I should own it". You do. You can throw it in a swimming pool and leave it there. What you do NOT own is the Operating System.

I own my Xbox, does that mean I can hack it to play pirated games legally? Does that mean I should force Microsoft to let me install Linux on it because I own the Xbox device?

oh and about owning the OS thats debateable at this juncture it would take a judge some serious time to debate that as when u buy a phone such as this u cannot use another os its tied to the hard ware it could be said that since a proper functioning phone as demonstrated by apples commercials that the software and hardware are merged and it could be extrapolated that all MOBile phone EULAs are null and void and unenforceable. that is the kind of thing that COULD be decided becouse of this case which has a **** ton of appplications say a telsa or a johndeer tractor all of it its exciting that we could possiblelly see the begenning of say outright ban on certain EULAs

I say this as a DEV

 

[jetrois]

Common misconception, but not true. There are tons of discussion about this in context of PWA, as this was the first reaction by many developers. Retention policy is built to prevent cross site tracking, not to cripple web apps.

PWA are crap. most cant hold a candle to native apps. Shudder Electoron monstrosity.

 

[jetrois]

Their case is pretty clear and listed in their documentation for the App Store. Other than that, Apple doesn’t need to do anything.

it dosntn matter about how their document state or that eplic agreed to what ever this will challenge the ever precent EULA if epic wins the game will change. and everyone saying apple wont be as secure they couold bring gatekeeper to ios

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Apple has claimed they are all about "making great products".

Making the most money would be more accurate.

30% commission is ridiculous.

Well, to be fair, if they were making CRAPPY products and selling, like 100 iPhones a year, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. It’s only because they were unfortunate enough to create products and design an app store that makes purchasing apps securely a breeze, attracted people that like that ecosystem (and willing to buy into it to the tune of millions a year).

The focus they put on making the hardware, then making the development environment, releasing the tools and THEN releasing the App Store means we’re having this conversation today. The only way... the absolute ONLY way Apple could have avoided this, perhaps, would have been to just make horrible products.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

it dosntn matter about how their document state or that eplic agreed to what ever this will challenge the ever precent EULA if epic wins the game will change. and everyone saying apple wont be as secure they couold bring gatekeeper to ios

Epic will lose, they don’t even expect to win. Like Hey before them, they just wanted to make a statement knowing that they’ll fall in line and will modify their app and upload an approved version within a couple weeks.

 

[TimFL1]

Fortnite sells things. Apple sells things. They’re both stores.

PLUS, I think 12% is wayyy too much. Time for the government to take action to change that.

Fortnite isn‘t open to 3rd party stuff being sold. It‘s all in-house by Epic.

Apple chose to let 3rd parties sell their apps on the App Store and plays favorites with certain app makers (amazon).

 

[theotherphil]

Maybe. I see these eulas going extinct of u look at it right

edit

What I mean to say is the software and hardware married so closely at it could be seen as inoperable without it and it could be considered a part of the device which means you own that software theoretically

I doubt it very much. Here's another example....I have an LG TV which has an App Store. I can only add apps from that App Store and cannot choose an alternative. I also cannot choose what OS to load onto that device.

I have an XBOX. I have no choice in OS or App Store provider.

I have a Playstation. I have no choice in OS or App Store provider.

I have a NAS. Again, I have no choice in OS or App Store provider.

I own all of those products but the software and services are provided by the manufacturer....something I selected "agree" to in the EULA and I knew about this before entering that contract. If I didn't, I have a period that I can return the product without prejudice. To continue using the product indicates my AGREEMENT with this ecosystem. If I didn't agree to it, I would seek alternatives, not try to get a manufacturer to change their business model to suit me.

 

[theotherphil]

Nope that’s not now it works buddy we antitrust busted the auto industry decades ago to stop what we are talking about now specifically before autos had to buy from manufacture we found it in antitrust years ago there are no such agreements now know ur history

Where can I buy a gearbox for my Ford Ranger? Any other OEM's? Nope, just Ford.