Apple Removes Fortnite From App Store [Update: Epic Files Lawsuit Against Apple]

[Unregistered 4U]

They don‘t want to pay because there are other apps using the storefront that get special treatment with reduced pay or no pay (using their own payment processing, completely ignoring the 30%) at all with Apple still hammering „no, everyone plays by the same rules!!!“ message.

If Apple didn‘t have the whole amazon prime etc special treatment deals, this whole conversation wouldn‘t exist, nor would Epic pull a PR stunt like this.

It IS the same rules. Epic Games are under the same rules I’d be under if I put an app up on the store tomorrow. Neither Epic or I fit the same clause that allows Amazon to do what they do, but if either of us did, then we’d get those same rules.

Now, if neither Epic nor I wants to go through the effort to become another “Amazon” in order to meet that clause of the agreement, well, then that’s us and our business decisions. Apple’s provided the path, we’re free to walk down it or not.

 

[TimFL1]

It IS the same rules. Epic Games are under the same rules I’d be under if I put an app up on the store tomorrow. Neither Epic or I fit the same clause that allows Amazon to do what they do, but if either of us did, then we’d get those same rules.

Now, if neither Epic nor I wants to go through the effort to become another “Amazon” in order to meet that clause of the agreement, well, then that’s us and our business decisions. Apple’s provided the path, we’re free to walk down it or not.

The clause is digital goods that can be consumed in-app (movies, books, gaming content etc) have to use the Apple in-app payment system exclusively.

In what world or alternate reality are movies not digital goods you consume inside the Prime app?

 

[I7guy]

The clause is digital goods that can be consumed in-app (movies, books, gaming content etc) have to use the Apple in-app payment system exclusively.

In what world or alternate reality are movies not digital goods you consume inside the Prime app?

The difference could be thought of like this: the 30 minute mark in a specific movie is always the same, the 30 minute mark in a game would be different almost everytime it’s played from the beginning.

 

[TimFL1]

The difference could be thought of like this: the 30 minute mark in a specific movie is always the same, the 30 minute mark in a game would be different almost everytime it’s played from the beginning.

No, that doesn‘t matter. Other streaming apps aren‘t exempt from the fee either, it‘s just amazon and 2 other apps that got special deals.

Apple creates their own precedence case, fueling the fire behind the lawsuit and all the outcry that happens right now.

 

[I7guy]

No, that doesn‘t matter. Other streaming apps aren‘t exempt from the fee either, it‘s just amazon and 2 other apps that got special deals.

Apple creates their own precedence case, fueling the fire behind the lawsuit and all the outcry that happens right now.

I think the difference is the issue. It’s the difference between a “reader” app and a non-reader app. Either way Apple seems to have a course charted for what they are going to do...anti-trust hearings or not.

 

[seclusion]

Shouldn’t Fornite just charge an extra 10% if the user uses an apple device?
or sell the app for $4.99
Oh wait, will 20% will be too much then?
I find it interesting that Epic doesn’t have a solution?
Like, suggest what they think is appropriate use of the apps store other than completely bypass it. 25%, 20%, 15%, 10% or should Apple Pay them?
The $ involved once things get over into the millions to me seems stupid for anyone to complain. As always the end user is used as a pawn.

 

[applefan69]

spoken the a true Apple Fanboy! I don’t know, I’d like to have a bit more choice over what I can put in the device I paid over 1k for!

but hey, you let Apple dictate what you need and how you get it. No xcloud! We got perfectly fine Apple Arcade that it’s better for you.

If you don’t like apples rules then don’t buy apples products. Enough said.

I am sorry you are unhappy because you are already invested in an apple product. But that is your fault, this isn’t some new revelation, a little bit of research would have revealed apples policies before you bought the device. Is consumers responsibility to make the right choice, no one else.

I know most of you don’t like it but the case really is THAT cut and dry. Any other attempt at an argument is just irrational whining and complaining. Again... don’t like it then don’t buy Apple. As long as alternatives exist there is no “monopoly” issue here.

not apples fault the alternatives suck 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[TimFL1]

I think the difference is the issue. It’s the difference between a “reader” app and a non-reader app. Either way Apple seems to have a course charted for what they are going to do...anti-trust hearings or not.

Reader apps also include stuff like Kindle, which does not get a free pass.

Apples Reader app classification is one of the first gigantic cringefest special treatment incidents. Without the rule they would‘ve had to kick Netflix, Kindle and co from the App Store for not allowing in-app purchases or membership sign ups. It‘s essentially a free pass for not offering a way to buy or sign up for stuff in your app (e.g. Netflix membership or books on Kindle).

 

[applefan69]

nope i see the end goal. people will burn **** down if they cant play fortnite. litttle script kiddies trying to ddos apple because they cant get their fix.

I’m sure Apple has the infrastructure and technical capabilities to laugh that off. Lol

 

[I7guy]

Reader apps also include stuff like Kindle, which does not get a free pass.

Apples Reader app classification is one of the first gigantic cringefest special treatment incidents. Without the rule they would‘ve had to kick Netflix, Kindle and co from the App Store for not allowing in-app purchases or membership sign ups. It‘s essentially a free pass for not offering a way to buy or sign up for stuff in your app (e.g. Netflix membership or books on Kindle).

Because Netflix and Amazon are an all one can eat buffet? Whereas the kindle app isn’t?

 

[Realityck]

Apple provides iOS as a platform, OS and then provides the hardware upon which people use and develop apps in a space which is generally considered more secure and more profitable (on a per customer spend) than Android.

In contrast, Epic charges 12% but to my knowledge, they provide the barest of bones functionality for their store. Their search function lacks even the most rudimentary options. The client lacks any meaningful way to manage your games. Hell, until recently, you didn’t even have email receipts for your purchases.

It’s very easy to charge less when you’re doing literally nothing to earn that.

I think there's plenty of room to debate just how much of a cut is appropriate for Apple, but Apple is clearly doing a lot more than just a glorified payment processor for their App Store.

Do you or anyone else thinks the App Store for acquiring apps is great? I think any game developer or reviewer usually provides a direct link to where it is in the store. Remember how we used to hate iTunes for its wanting to be a jack or all trades with music, books, videos content. Well the Apple App store is in my opinion terribly hard to determine what you want to buy. On the Mac OS, currently using Big Sur developer beta the App Store interface is terribly plain, like hardly anything visible that would entice a buyer to acquire anything from it.

On the iPad using the latest developer beta its similar to how it was before. Its a really old fashion layout of app listings with little descriptions to go on until you dig and dig into the interface to find out if what you are looking at is any good. Again anyone that wants a market a game or something else on iOS or iPad store, best market if via a ad or web URL write up rather then rely on Apple's awful App Store interface. Where are decent description of app you are looking at? A few GUI images, you read the comments if you can. Its a mess. LOL.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Do you or anyone else thinks the App Store for acquiring apps is great?

Does anyone think that there’s anyone that goes to the App Store to find something to buy? Most folks search for things like “iOS mind mapping app” or “top vector graphic apps for iPad”, read the reviews, find the one that has the features they want, then buy it. Buying based on the App Store description is like buying a video game from Wal-Mart on the writing on the back of the box.

 

[Realityck]

Does anyone think that there’s anyone that goes to the App Store to find something to buy? Most folks search for things like “iOS mind mapping app” or “top vector graphic apps for iPad”, read the reviews, find the one that has the features they want, then buy it. Buying based on the App Store description is like buying a video game from Wal-Mart on the writing on the back of the box.

Just trying to place the App Store worth in front of people. Yes Apple polices the store as best they can, but for the developer and consumers does the 30% commission really buy you much other then just completing a transaction? All of us are footing the bill, is it justified. If the answer is that's how they do it on other App stores it would be the same question.

 

[cmaier]

Just trying to place the App Store worth in front of people. Yes Apple polices the store as best they can, but for the developer and consumers does the 30% commission really buy you much other then just completing a transaction? All of us are footing the bill, is it justified. If the answer is that's how they do it on other App stores it would be the same question.

That 30% covers part of the cost of developing the SDKs, CloudKit servers, etc. that developers use for their software. Without it, you will see less incentive for apple to innovate in that regard. Instead, software developers will rely on their own stacks, and you won’t see people in their garage coming up with the next surprise hit anymore.

 

[Realityck]

That 30% covers part of the cost of developing the SDKs, CloudKit servers, etc. that developers use for their software. Without it, you will see less incentive for apple to innovate in that regard. Instead, software developers will rely on their own stacks, and you won’t see people in their garage coming up with the next surprise hit anymore.

None of this is related to the next surprise hit anymore, since Steve Jobs left you cannot convince me that Apple has come up with really anything surprising. The Watch taking 3 revisions to get it right, iPod wireless earphones (big deal!), what exactly has Apple been doing for the last decade. Oh yeah focused on iPhone less degree with iPads, and ignoring Macintoshes with occasionally coming out with updates. (Look at the Mac Pro history - terrible) Took like the iPhone market maturity when smartphones are not longer being bought as much to finally concern Apple enough that they need to get back to their basics which is Macintosh's and services. I see you name off a lot of the tools they offer developers for free, but those same developers are what's drivings Apple high revenue along with those higher margins for devices. Cut us a break, if Apple is bursting to the seams with wealth throwing so much of it buying content for Apple TV +, you think the least they could do is make it easier for developers and consumers with reduced commissions from the App Store.

 

[TimFL1]

Because Netflix and Amazon are an all one can eat buffet? Whereas the kindle app isn’t?

Educate yourself before you post claims. Netflix might be one sub to rule them all, Amazon isn‘t. Prime Videos also offers renting and outright buying movies, which is enabled on iOS / tvOS and processed by the amazon payment systems as of April 2020 due to behind closed door deals taking place.

 

[I7guy]

Educate yourself before you post claims. Netflix might be one sub to rule them all, Amazon isn‘t. Prime Videos also offers renting and outright buying movies, which is enabled on iOS / tvOS and processed by the amazon payment systems as of April 2020 due to behind closed door deals taking place.

Right, so Netflix is an all you eat buffet.

Anybody who thinks companies don’t kow-tow to their largest customers is naive. There are always a handful of exceptions at the top-end and the terms are unknown.

For people that don’t like it...have them write to their congressional rep.

 

[cmaier]

None of this is related to the next surprise hit anymore, since Steve Jobs left you cannot convince me that Apple has come up with really anything surprising. The Watch taking 3 revisions to get it right, iPod wireless earphones (big deal!), what exactly has Apple been doing for the last decade. Oh yeah focused on iPhone less degree with iPads, and ignoring Macintoshes with occasionally coming out with updates. (Look at the Mac Pro history - terrible) Took like the iPhone market maturity when smartphones are not longer being bought as much to finally concern Apple enough that they need to get back to their basics which is Macintosh's and services. I see you name off a lot of the tools they offer developers for free, but those same developers are what's drivings Apple high revenue along with those higher margins for devices. Cut us a break, if Apple is bursting to the seams with wealth throwing so much of it buying content for Apple TV +, you think the least they could do is make it easier for developers and consumers with reduced commissions from the App Store.

I wasn’t talking about apple producing surprise hits. I was talking about developers.

I made a lot of money selling apps on the App Store, and I couldn’t have done it without everything that apple provided. I don’t begrudge them their 30% at all.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

It IS the same rules. Epic Games are under the same rules I’d be under if I put an app up on the store tomorrow. Neither Epic or I fit the same clause that allows Amazon to do what they do, but if either of us did, then we’d get those same rules.

That is the thing. The issue is not if the rules are the same or not. This is a False Dillema that Apple keeps repeating and repeating and repeating .... I haven’t met a rule book that does not apply to all the players. Its all about criteria, anyone that meets the criteria is on, otherwise is on something else ... You are Amazon you are on, you are not Amazon you are out. Simple, it applies to everyone including Amazon.

The clause is digital goods that can be consumed in-app (movies, books, gaming content etc) have to use the Apple in-app payment system exclusively.

Yes. It is precisely that clause that its monopolistic considering that one in two Americans use at least one iOS device as it is revealed by their market share. For one, those goods aren’t only consumed in the iOS app. But there is more everything that circulates on the Internet and is in computers is digital information, digital goods if you will, same thing. The only wayhumans can read, interact, product and manage information is with apps. Tax and vet whatever it goes through the app you control the business of information ... Period. Apple with this clause can even tax bitcoin transactions if they wanted ...

If Apple taxed just for their services no way that would aim a 30% shared revenue of all the businesses conducted in such a space. Yes, there are workarounds, but that in iOS terms is equivalent to a black market. Apple his clearly hostile to that market, the web market when it comes payment, the way devs get their money, if not why not allow a link opening a web page for payment? ... no way around it.

App the App Store is a bundle of service:

- App Hosting with the usual download and upload services: A bunch of files, technically equivalent to hosting files
- App Review and Curation: Reviews apps to meet the policy
- App Directory / Library
- Payment/Billing services

Fundamentally for devs only Payment/Billing and App Hosting means something as a fundamental service. The other services is Advertising, promoting their service ... but that is none existent in the App Store. Check the market prices for that ... no way 30% of a business. Not of even a third of that. The same thing for SDKs, IDEs ... check the cost of VS Studio for instance ... there are plenty ... some are even open source and FREE!!!!!

The Curation could mean something for devs if they could pay for Ads in store, but they cannot. The way their app is perceived or marketed in the App Store is all OUT of their control! So indeed when it comes to promote their services they actually need to do it elsewhere ... for which the App Store contributes little apart from being the Gate Keeper.

So in the end devs are pushed to give 30% of their revenue for App Hosting and Payment services and a bunch of SDKs and an IDE.

The more business goes remote, the more flies fall into the Apple Policy web. Distance Learning, tax. Remote Broking service check, wherever that does not require analog delivery ... no? Check the AirBnB case. They acted as a broker between people with places to rent and people wanted a place to rent ... no tax. The moment AirBnB offer a service to teach their user on how to see better their services in a package, ClassPass ... Tax? Why? In what way Apple feels entitled to 30% of this business, honestly. Aren’t the SDK and IDE to make the app the same as any other? Oh, they can go somewhere else ... again one in two Americans own and use at least one iOS device ... heck ... One it is OK, but when than its not OK, 2 in 2? Why? The fundamental principle of collecting revenue out of value that its not their to collect is there either with 1 in 2 or 2 in 2.

Comparing this policy with PlayStation or XBOX, Epic is a huge fallacy. For one, iOS devices are general purpose devices, so is iOS. Meaning, its not just Games ... its everything.

It’s nonsense. The all thing is riddled with fallacies, a great reality distortion field. Just because some people are dormant in the US it does not mean that everyone needs to be.

EDIT: All my devices are from Apple, all of them! Just two days ago ordered iMac 27” 2020 closed to maxed out. But tis is wrong! Never thought I would say, but check MS iCloud service. If you are a Startup you may get 100K voucher to use their infrastructure of one year, and can get Office 365 and VS Developer for free for two years or so (con’t remember if its one o two). Now that is actually helping startups, not taking 30% of their potential revenue and holding it for two months or, just for the use of two services that are effectively today mainstream every where else, while their are fighting that initial revenue stream that can get them somewhere!!!!!

Apple iOS Customers are of course blinded from all this. They bough the device they liked, like free apps (payed by devs), like that are plenty of apps. Again made by devs that have been trusting Apple to do the right thing by them .. but are they really? Or are they being Prayed, because those billions going trough considering the market share and the policty catteing for everything digital does not really come has a surprise. But with only 5% making more than a million ... heck, it sure looks like a failing business model for 95% of the devs but I’m sure that its still worth billions for Apple (even if the apps are free).

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[Unregistered 4U]

for the developer and consumers does the 30% commission really buy you much other then just completing a transaction?

Well, without the 30% I wouldn’t have access to the app. Because, you can’t be a developer and upload something for me to buy without agreeing to that.

That is the thing. The issue is not if the rules are the same or not. This is a False Dillema.

I would agree. Epic Games SAYS it’s about a free market, but it’s not at all. There is no dilemma, it’s just about them not wanting to adhere to their agreement.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

I would agree. Epic Games SAYS it’s about a free market, but it’s not at all. There is no dilemma, it’s just about them not wanting to adhere to their agreement.

When one in two Americans use iOS devices its not about you wanting or not. When you build a digital business you want to be wherever your customers are. If they are on iOS you need to be there, on Windows, on Android ... wherever relevant platform. Cutting out iOS means that you are leaving potentially 50% of your customers behind in the US. The 30% shared revenue is indeed only sustained by the market share. If iOS had as much as the Mac, the store would be, no app. Meaning the importance of the App Store for revenue is fundamentally driven by iOS market share in the US, not by the store itself!!!

So in a sense its about a free yet regulated digital business market. Not allowing companies charging money for value that they do not deliver by the provided services alone. No way the App Store alone delivers 30% of all digital services revenue, because that is Apple end game. It’s mostly about the market share of the general pupose devices such as the iPhone and the iPad. And that my friend its the actual monopoly. Because as far as the services are concerned, the one that devs care about, are mostly mainstream and are no way near 30%, not even a third of that.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

When one in two Americans use iOS devices its not about you wanting or not. When you build a digital business you want to be wherever your customers are.

Take it backwards a step. Should Apple, as a part of doing business, ensure that, as they grow their iPhone business, that they only sell a certain number of phones in the US per year? And, going forward, if they lock the number of phones sold in the US such that people are forced to buy non-Apple phones (or, if they want an iPhones, they have to buy ones sold in other countries), it appears that would solve the problem without Apple having to make any other changes.

 

[cmaier]

Take it backwards a step. Should Apple, as a part of doing business, ensure that, as they grow their iPhone business, that they only sell a certain number of phones in the US per year? And, going forward, if they lock the number of phones sold in the US such that people are forced to buy non-Apple phones (or, if they want an iPhones, they have to buy ones sold in other countries), it appears that would solve the problem without Apple having to make any other changes.

Apple should also be forced to insert a certain number of bugs in each release, to ensure that their products are not too successful.

 

[mrochester]

My question is, if developers don’t like the way apple and google run their app stores, why didn’t they make apps for windows phone or Firefox os when they had the chance? That way there’d be multiple ecosystems and app stores all competing for business. It was the developers that killed these other platforms In the first place.

 

[LillDrutten]

Good. Fortnite doesn't provide third parties a way to sell within its game. Why should Apple allow them free real-estate for customers that Apple worked to build?

Apple's store. Apple's rules.

Not that unfair, however you can not have a other app-store. Allow a other app-store and problem is solved.