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Apple Rumor Casualty...
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On one level, i am inclined to think that life is about second chances. anyone who's never had one should stand up right now and say adam deserves to lose his dream job forever, to condemn him to his just deserts.
I believe in the sovereignty of law and the importance of upholding contracts, of course, and i've found this one of the most stimulating discussions i've read in a long time... the question of privacy in a strictly legal sense, especially as touching the internet, is a very compelling one to us who use the internet every day, who rely on its integrity (read: stability) to conduct business &c.
i hate to come out smack in the middle, but while i agree with sun baked and what i would more or less term the "legalist crowd" that apple has every right to fire adam and perhaps even to sue him for compromising absolutely nothing (which he promised not to compromise under the NDA), i have a great deal of sympathy for a man who made a mistake--i've made more than a few in my life, and i can't help but admit that i'm doomed to make a few (read: a hell of a lot) more.
in the law there is no mercy, and none should ever be expected. in man's heart there is (sometimes) mercy, and there should we rake for it. this is a complicated issue, naturally, but i think we could ease a great deal of tension if we had some of said mercy on adam's plight.
I believe in the sovereignty of law and the importance of upholding contracts, of course, and i've found this one of the most stimulating discussions i've read in a long time... the question of privacy in a strictly legal sense, especially as touching the internet, is a very compelling one to us who use the internet every day, who rely on its integrity (read: stability) to conduct business &c.
i hate to come out smack in the middle, but while i agree with sun baked and what i would more or less term the "legalist crowd" that apple has every right to fire adam and perhaps even to sue him for compromising absolutely nothing (which he promised not to compromise under the NDA), i have a great deal of sympathy for a man who made a mistake--i've made more than a few in my life, and i can't help but admit that i'm doomed to make a few (read: a hell of a lot) more.
in the law there is no mercy, and none should ever be expected. in man's heart there is (sometimes) mercy, and there should we rake for it. this is a complicated issue, naturally, but i think we could ease a great deal of tension if we had some of said mercy on adam's plight.
Re: Re: Re: What is "private?"
Do they? If something is missing from your home and there is no evidence of a break-in because the door was unlocked, etc then good luck trying to get the insurance company to replace something or the police to take it seriously. Ideally we do have better protection, but realistically we do not. Don't believe me? Ask your insurance company how they feel when things go missing and there is no evidence for a break in. ask your local police too.
Do they? If something is missing from your home and there is no evidence of a break-in because the door was unlocked, etc then good luck trying to get the insurance company to replace something or the police to take it seriously. Ideally we do have better protection, but realistically we do not. Don't believe me? Ask your insurance company how they feel when things go missing and there is no evidence for a break in. ask your local police too.
intellectual property vs. property
in the interest of the property/information debate, i don't think this has been mentioned. screenshots of "secret" apple apps and so on is not neutral information, it's intellectual property--information that can be owned and stolen, and illegally shared (even if by accident), like Mac OS X itself, or all those mp3s floating around the internet. intellectual property is unlike physical property in that you can copy it. making analogies to stolen property is mostly illogical, because intellectual property is not literally stolen--it's copied. so it was like the photograph of the sensitive stuff you left on your dashboard that has been mentioned in this thread... it's much more complicated than simple stealing. i know this explanation is redundant, but i thought i would bring up the term for more precise use in further discussion.
i don't think it's been mentioned yet; i've thoroughly read most of this thread and skimmed the rest, but if so, sorry in advance for being dumb.
in the interest of the property/information debate, i don't think this has been mentioned. screenshots of "secret" apple apps and so on is not neutral information, it's intellectual property--information that can be owned and stolen, and illegally shared (even if by accident), like Mac OS X itself, or all those mp3s floating around the internet. intellectual property is unlike physical property in that you can copy it. making analogies to stolen property is mostly illogical, because intellectual property is not literally stolen--it's copied. so it was like the photograph of the sensitive stuff you left on your dashboard that has been mentioned in this thread... it's much more complicated than simple stealing. i know this explanation is redundant, but i thought i would bring up the term for more precise use in further discussion.
i don't think it's been mentioned yet; i've thoroughly read most of this thread and skimmed the rest, but if so, sorry in advance for being dumb.
Re: Re: Re: Re: What is "private?"
We're using an analogy to talk about a real life situation with Adam, remember? You're changing your own analogy to suit your argument on the fly. Nice!
In the case at hand, PBZone (or their informant) not only admitted to 'lifting' the stuff without Adam's permission, they followed him to 8080! And posted that! And posted his name!
By the way, you're wrong about the insurance company not replacing a missing item in the case of an unlocked door or lack of evidence of forced entry. The missing item itself is the evidence of the break in!
I know of a similar case. The best guess is that the item was stolen by someone who was employed by the home owner. Nothing was ever proven, but the insurance company had to pay. And believe me, the police and the insurance company took it very seriously!
We're using an analogy to talk about a real life situation with Adam, remember? You're changing your own analogy to suit your argument on the fly. Nice!
In the case at hand, PBZone (or their informant) not only admitted to 'lifting' the stuff without Adam's permission, they followed him to 8080! And posted that! And posted his name!
By the way, you're wrong about the insurance company not replacing a missing item in the case of an unlocked door or lack of evidence of forced entry. The missing item itself is the evidence of the break in!
I know of a similar case. The best guess is that the item was stolen by someone who was employed by the home owner. Nothing was ever proven, but the insurance company had to pay. And believe me, the police and the insurance company took it very seriously!
Read more carefully. Adam had screenshots of apple internal applications: vantive, sword, and remote access. I doubt that anyone has those pics because Adam pulled it off his site. Read more at http://www.livejournal.com/~virga.
Yeah he had some of the pics, he had the authority to see these programs.
No he shouldn't of posted them but.
Anyone who looks through the folders like that should be shanked. Really looking for stuff like that. I mean sure it was a pretty good find but look I wouldn't post it here.
And no i haven't seen these pics either.
A) are any of them good
B) what do they show
C) will it kill apple if we know a Program is coming?
Hmmm after rereading the NDA i signed with apple very carefully i guess it won't hurt to tell you that nothing is going to KILL apple. Apple's just really secretive.
The screenshots were of stuff he did in those programs I guess...
The screenshots were of stuff he did in those programs I guess...
I think the point that you aren't getting here is that no one with any sense would have GOTTEN into Adam's position. He screwed up. Really. A lot. If the worst that comes from it is losing a job as an underpaid sales grunt at a retail store, he's damned lucky. Stop defending stupidity and carelessness. The next internal document he posts on a website might have your credit card information on it. THEN would your heart bleed for him?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What is "private?"
Why didn't Adam move the stuff off the site completely? And why did he post it publically? I'm sorry, but someone who obviously knows what they are doing would know that it was public. He hid the sensitive data that was in the screen captures. He meant to post it publically. He directed people to his website with his post on slash-dot, and someone intelligent looked at the directory and saw what was there. How do we know Apple didn't look there themselves without PBZone's help?
And as for something missing in your home and no evidence for a break-in: yes, insurance will pay out, but they will keep their eyes on you and the police will investigate the situation and will likely be suspicious that you removed the item yourself. It's happened before. I've known people who have removed there own tvs and 'puters in an effort to get a more up to date product and not have to pay the full price. In some cases, insurance refused to pay because he could not prove that a something external from the house had taken it. Some companies will eat it, some will not.
And besides, it's immaterial. The stuff Adam posted was not his own anyways, he had already taken it from Apple.
Why didn't Adam move the stuff off the site completely? And why did he post it publically? I'm sorry, but someone who obviously knows what they are doing would know that it was public. He hid the sensitive data that was in the screen captures. He meant to post it publically. He directed people to his website with his post on slash-dot, and someone intelligent looked at the directory and saw what was there. How do we know Apple didn't look there themselves without PBZone's help?
And as for something missing in your home and no evidence for a break-in: yes, insurance will pay out, but they will keep their eyes on you and the police will investigate the situation and will likely be suspicious that you removed the item yourself. It's happened before. I've known people who have removed there own tvs and 'puters in an effort to get a more up to date product and not have to pay the full price. In some cases, insurance refused to pay because he could not prove that a something external from the house had taken it. Some companies will eat it, some will not.
And besides, it's immaterial. The stuff Adam posted was not his own anyways, he had already taken it from Apple.
My email to PBZone
Shame on you for what you did to Adam. Your update to
the "story" is even more shameful.
Your account of what happened makes no sense. An
Apple employee decided to report Adam to Apple
Security and to PowerBook Zone?
"Apparently" the link was on Slashdot.org first? Do
you ever verify anything?
Do you have any concept that this is someone's life
you're messing with?
And for what?
As addicted to Mac rumors as I am, I'm not even
curious to see those screenshots. Those screenshots
are not newsworthy at all to anyone who would dare
look at a monitor at an employee's station of an Apple
Store.
If you thought it was so newsworthy, why didn't you go
to a store yourself months ago with a camera?
Count me as one person who will never come back to
your site.
PS: I hope you get sued.
Shame on you for what you did to Adam. Your update to
the "story" is even more shameful.
Your account of what happened makes no sense. An
Apple employee decided to report Adam to Apple
Security and to PowerBook Zone?
"Apparently" the link was on Slashdot.org first? Do
you ever verify anything?
Do you have any concept that this is someone's life
you're messing with?
And for what?
As addicted to Mac rumors as I am, I'm not even
curious to see those screenshots. Those screenshots
are not newsworthy at all to anyone who would dare
look at a monitor at an employee's station of an Apple
Store.
If you thought it was so newsworthy, why didn't you go
to a store yourself months ago with a camera?
Count me as one person who will never come back to
your site.
PS: I hope you get sued.
Vantive is a database program ala Oracle. Apple and HP (among others) use this program...
Only thing I can recall from this is that Vantive does not run on Macs, therefore Apple is using Windoze PCs (prolly through VPN) somehow for their DBase program.
Maybe that's why they were quite pissed off. Cuz of the fact that they run their customer service/tech support stuff through a PC Program.
edit here
I agree with macslut. I hope that @$$monger from pbzone gets sued.
Only thing I can recall from this is that Vantive does not run on Macs, therefore Apple is using Windoze PCs (prolly through VPN) somehow for their DBase program.
Maybe that's why they were quite pissed off. Cuz of the fact that they run their customer service/tech support stuff through a PC Program.
edit here
I agree with macslut. I hope that @$$monger from pbzone gets sued.
Actually. . .
As was stated before, the Vantive program is partly used to just make the AppleCare database easier, like when you go into an Apple Store and it takes about 5-10 minutes for them to look up your AppleCare info. I'm not sure what Sword does.
As was stated before, the Vantive program is partly used to just make the AppleCare database easier, like when you go into an Apple Store and it takes about 5-10 minutes for them to look up your AppleCare info. I'm not sure what Sword does.
I'm not defending Adam and I'm not standing up for him either. I do get the point, it was a dumb thing to do, but the thing is humans are fallible. Everyone makes mistakes and you do too even if you might deny it. And he's not damned lucky!! You don't understand how it's like to work at an Apple Store. You don't know how it feels like to work at Apple. I don't care if the next internal doc he posts has my credit card info on it. **** happens!
140+ posts? Is this really that compelling? I've seen fewer posts for real information.
Oh well, I guess whatever gets you through to the next announcement from Apple.
Oh well, I guess whatever gets you through to the next announcement from Apple.
It's the actual act of firing a wonderful and thoughtful Apple Store employee that's compelling.
Adam has updated his site, he mentioned it was HIS account that the screen shots were of, and I believe they (the screen shots) have been in that directory for some time.
More than likely it was for his own use, (I have also done screen shots of setups also and saved them).
Just poor judgement on his part, but I do not think he sould have been fired over it, reprimand yes, to be more careful.
PBzone just got a hardon over being able to post a name/address etc. Doug probably figures it's worth it for the extra hits he is getting... :\
More than likely it was for his own use, (I have also done screen shots of setups also and saved them).
Just poor judgement on his part, but I do not think he sould have been fired over it, reprimand yes, to be more careful.
PBzone just got a hardon over being able to post a name/address etc. Doug probably figures it's worth it for the extra hits he is getting... :\
Reality Check
So, a computer science college student chooses to make available online info he might want to access easily from elsewhere...among all this data is some personal, including an ongoing and revealing blog, some items related to his work, etc. Now, Adam posts a news item to slashdot, with a link to his website...oops...a rumor site searches this website, and finds some non-controversial work-related data which Adam kept around for some unspecified reason (perhaps to remind him how to fill out a form in a complicated database, or to remember what was saved concerning his account in the database, or whatever). The rumor site decides it doesn't like Adam from reading his blog and noting some of the other info on his site, and sees an easy way to ruin him by turning him in for being careless about protecting the insensitive work screenshots.
Is he guilty of not protecting the work screenshots? Yes. Should he be fired for that? Perhaps, following a private discussion with his boss, considering the sensitivity of the revealed data, Adam's response, and his work history with the store. I can't help but remember how many stupid things I did in my youth that, luckily, I got away with...
Are the motives of the website that chose to publish his error, along with his personal information, ensuring he would be caught culpable? To my mind, yes.
It's interesting reading all the responses on this thread. Most are sympathetic...but it's those who are not whose comments are the most telling. I don't know about them, but I've never lived in a perfect world. Perhaps if I had I would feel differently. But in my world, people make mistakes, and we normally don't use those mistakes to ruin their lives, unless the errors were exceptionally heinous. This error doesn't, on the surface at least, appear to meet this criterion.
Yes, I know, he's only 19...and he should have known better, and what if he had had some juicy Apple-sensitive info on his website? But, is the economy really so filled with eager young technologists that we really feel it's OK to toss out everyone who's not perfect? And for those who hide behind the "he screwed up so he's toast mantle," why are you so quick to judge?
Yeah, you're right...I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Oh, and one more thing...I also don't recall ever seeing a rumor site name a source. Now really... if the rumor site had actually copied the bland screenshots up and announced them as proof of some new exotic rumor, such as APPLE USES VANTIVE, who would have cared? Certainly not me. But, let's get this guy fired! Hey, that's entertainment!
So, a computer science college student chooses to make available online info he might want to access easily from elsewhere...among all this data is some personal, including an ongoing and revealing blog, some items related to his work, etc. Now, Adam posts a news item to slashdot, with a link to his website...oops...a rumor site searches this website, and finds some non-controversial work-related data which Adam kept around for some unspecified reason (perhaps to remind him how to fill out a form in a complicated database, or to remember what was saved concerning his account in the database, or whatever). The rumor site decides it doesn't like Adam from reading his blog and noting some of the other info on his site, and sees an easy way to ruin him by turning him in for being careless about protecting the insensitive work screenshots.
Is he guilty of not protecting the work screenshots? Yes. Should he be fired for that? Perhaps, following a private discussion with his boss, considering the sensitivity of the revealed data, Adam's response, and his work history with the store. I can't help but remember how many stupid things I did in my youth that, luckily, I got away with...
Are the motives of the website that chose to publish his error, along with his personal information, ensuring he would be caught culpable? To my mind, yes.
It's interesting reading all the responses on this thread. Most are sympathetic...but it's those who are not whose comments are the most telling. I don't know about them, but I've never lived in a perfect world. Perhaps if I had I would feel differently. But in my world, people make mistakes, and we normally don't use those mistakes to ruin their lives, unless the errors were exceptionally heinous. This error doesn't, on the surface at least, appear to meet this criterion.
Yes, I know, he's only 19...and he should have known better, and what if he had had some juicy Apple-sensitive info on his website? But, is the economy really so filled with eager young technologists that we really feel it's OK to toss out everyone who's not perfect? And for those who hide behind the "he screwed up so he's toast mantle," why are you so quick to judge?
Yeah, you're right...I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Oh, and one more thing...I also don't recall ever seeing a rumor site name a source. Now really... if the rumor site had actually copied the bland screenshots up and announced them as proof of some new exotic rumor, such as APPLE USES VANTIVE, who would have cared? Certainly not me. But, let's get this guy fired! Hey, that's entertainment!
the information that was disclosed is not really that interesting, to be posted on PBzone. I think thier motive was simply to attack and destroy Adam. Now why would they want to do that?
Perhaps because he is openly gay?
Perhaps because he is openly gay?
Geesh, this has turned really passionate since I last posted on page one!
If Apple feels such a mistake was worthy of termination, then I stand behind Apples' decision. I certainly wouldn't go screaming to them about such internal affairs and decisions.
I'm also surprised at the gay "angle." Suffice it to say, I'm homosexual (being of scientific mind, I prefer that phrasology) and I've made mistakes, and like to think I use both sides of my brain. I know heterosexual men who like the Mac AND work on the PC side. Guess that makes 'em bisexual in the brain? And "witch hunt" because the guy is homosexual?! I haven't stopped laughing yet at that remark.
Again, the kid's quite young. He'll survive. All in all, it's an interesting story and I'm glad it was posted, but hardly worthy, IMHO, of writing endless e-mails, signing petitions, banning sites, boycotting products on those sites, and furthering grief.
If Apple feels such a mistake was worthy of termination, then I stand behind Apples' decision. I certainly wouldn't go screaming to them about such internal affairs and decisions.
I'm also surprised at the gay "angle." Suffice it to say, I'm homosexual (being of scientific mind, I prefer that phrasology) and I've made mistakes, and like to think I use both sides of my brain. I know heterosexual men who like the Mac AND work on the PC side. Guess that makes 'em bisexual in the brain?
And "witch hunt" because the guy is homosexual?! I haven't stopped laughing yet at that remark.Again, the kid's quite young. He'll survive. All in all, it's an interesting story and I'm glad it was posted, but hardly worthy, IMHO, of writing endless e-mails, signing petitions, banning sites, boycotting products on those sites, and furthering grief.
Hold Up...
Nobody Disputes the following facts (i think):
a) Adam is at leas partially at fault for this, even if his fault is just being a not-too-security-consious, curious kid (some say it is more serious).
b)PowerBook Zone is primarily at fault, even if no more than most news sources (again, some say it is more serious)
Now, onto the REAL issue here (Adam got fired), with som speculation of my own:
Adam was obviously knowledgable and passionate about the product (Macintosh Computers) he was selling. Since this doesn't seem like particularly sensitive information, it seems like a knowledgeable, passionate employee would be worth more to Apple in terms of business goals (i.e. selling computers) than screenshots of internal software. Also factor in that Adam, after this fiasco, is sustantialy less likely to leak apple information in the future than the average equally passionate employee. The real question Apple should be asking is "Is this guy helping us sell more computers?" I suspect the answer is yes.
"Second chances reward you with the most experienced friends."
(A good quote, but I can't remember who said it)
Apple would do well to have a little more compassion for it's most passionate users. I am a pretty enthusiastic Apple nut myself, and I think Apple needs to show some compassion for the part of it's user base primarily responsible for ANYONE ELSE using their products -- The mac faithful. I think Apple needs to give this kid the benefit of the doubt, and I am willing to tell them that.
Nobody Disputes the following facts (i think):
a) Adam is at leas partially at fault for this, even if his fault is just being a not-too-security-consious, curious kid (some say it is more serious).
b)PowerBook Zone is primarily at fault, even if no more than most news sources (again, some say it is more serious)
Now, onto the REAL issue here (Adam got fired), with som speculation of my own:
Adam was obviously knowledgable and passionate about the product (Macintosh Computers) he was selling. Since this doesn't seem like particularly sensitive information, it seems like a knowledgeable, passionate employee would be worth more to Apple in terms of business goals (i.e. selling computers) than screenshots of internal software. Also factor in that Adam, after this fiasco, is sustantialy less likely to leak apple information in the future than the average equally passionate employee. The real question Apple should be asking is "Is this guy helping us sell more computers?" I suspect the answer is yes.
"Second chances reward you with the most experienced friends."
(A good quote, but I can't remember who said it)
Apple would do well to have a little more compassion for it's most passionate users. I am a pretty enthusiastic Apple nut myself, and I think Apple needs to show some compassion for the part of it's user base primarily responsible for ANYONE ELSE using their products -- The mac faithful. I think Apple needs to give this kid the benefit of the doubt, and I am willing to tell them that.