vantive does run on Macs...but only using OS 9, not X. classic mode + vantive = a lot of crashes, and a lot of waiting, pissed off customers. i imagine that there must be some intention to develop an OS X compatible vantive but who knows when it might become available.
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Apple Rumor Casualty...
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vantive does run on Macs...but only using OS 9, not X. classic mode + vantive = a lot of crashes, and a lot of waiting, pissed off customers. i imagine that there must be some intention to develop an OS X compatible vantive but who knows when it might become available.
I think you're overanalyziing on the issue of homosexuality. i'd be really surprised if this were a hate-inspired act. to maliciously defame someone like that would be nothing short of insidious; i think the people over at pbzone are just thoughtless, insensitive idiots, though their lack of remorse/sympathy or admission of guilt at even the most remote level does suggest a much worse picture of them than i was thinking at first...
Originally posted by Dave Marsh
So, a computer science college student chooses to make available online info he might want to access easily from elsewhere...among all this data is some personal, including an ongoing and revealing blog, some items related to his work, etc. Now, Adam posts a news item to slashdot, with a link to his website...oops...a rumor site searches this website, and finds some non-controversial work-related data which Adam kept around for some unspecified reason (perhaps to remind him how to fill out a form in a complicated database, or to remember what was saved concerning his account in the database, or whatever). The rumor site decides it doesn't like Adam from reading his blog and noting some of the other info on his site, and sees an easy way to ruin him by turning him in for being careless about protecting the insensitive work screenshots.
Is he guilty of not protecting the work screenshots? Yes. Should he be fired for that? Perhaps, following a private discussion with his boss, considering the sensitivity of the revealed data, Adam's response, and his work history with the store. I can't help but remember how many stupid things I did in my youth that, luckily, I got away with...
Are the motives of the website that chose to publish his error, along with his personal information, ensuring he would be caught culpable? To my mind, yes.
It's interesting reading all the responses on this thread. Most are sympathetic...but it's those who are not whose comments are the most telling. I don't know about them, but I've never lived in a perfect world. Perhaps if I had I would feel differently. But in my world, people make mistakes, and we normally don't use those mistakes to ruin their lives, unless the errors were exceptionally heinous. This error doesn't, on the surface at least, appear to meet this criterion.
Yes, I know, he's only 19...and he should have known better, and what if he had had some juicy Apple-sensitive info on his website? But, is the economy really so filled with eager young technologists that we really feel it's OK to toss out everyone who's not perfect? And for those who hide behind the "he screwed up so he's toast mantle," why are you so quick to judge?
Yeah, you're right...I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Oh, and one more thing...I also don't recall ever seeing a rumor site name a source. Now really... if the rumor site had actually copied the bland screenshots up and announced them as proof of some new exotic rumor, such as APPLE USES VANTIVE, who would have cared? Certainly not me. But, let's get this guy fired! Hey, that's entertainment!
This is one of the most eloquent posts i've seen in these forums, and expresses my thoughts much better than i probably could. kudos.
one thing that can be said of pbzone, if nothing else:
what a bunch of losers! who would go to a site that gets bored enough to post this? as has been said, this isn't even remotely interesting at the occurrence level. who honestly cares about any of these screenshots?
i would be appalled by their carelessness and foolishness in posting such a triviality that can only serve to damn a single person in the eyes of apple's NDA. even if their stupid story about him already being cooked when they published the article were true, what pathetic people must run a site that would post something like that? it's not exactly "new iPods on wednesday?" is it? this can't be because of rumor competition either, in my mind. i mean, i can see fighting to be the first to get details on the latest apple hardware or software, but none of the stuff on his page has any relevance or interest to the general public or the mac community, at whatever cost.
i laugh at macOSrumors for posting fairly mean things and stupid rumors (quad processors are coming this year, you know, it's the only way to deal with motorola), but i still go there. PBzone is the first on my list of mac sites NEVER to go to again.
Interesting that Vantive is on that Mac. I used to work for an ISP, and they use Vantive as well. I was like the only Mac person and wanted to bad to use Vantive on the Mac that would sit on my desk along side my PC.
Oh by the way, I haven't worked for the ISP in 2 years and my NDA as been up.
-Hugh
Oh by the way, I haven't worked for the ISP in 2 years and my NDA as been up.
-Hugh
Ethics, PBzobe & petition for Adam
Following is the email I sent PBZone. I hope that the following petition I signed will help Adam's future with Apple. Go to petition link
Following is the email I sent PBZone. I hope that the following petition I signed will help Adam's future with Apple. Go to petition link
Some people are also voicing their displeasure at the PBzone forum thread:
http://www.macdebate.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000608.html
http://www.macdebate.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000608.html
Re: What is "private?"
It's built right into your os:
chmod 500 some_file_I_dont_want_the_world_to_see.jpeg
True in the physical world. A non-password protected network resource, without a clear posting that it is not to be accessed, is pretty much fair game though.
Fallacious metaphor. I can't rummage through your house through a standardized protocol that your house is fully accepting and responding to.
Yeah, just ask the RIAA...
<laugh/> The web delivers content through an HTTP server. A web server is free to respond hower it likes to whatever request is made of it. If you don't understand how to make it not deliver content you don't want delivered, you have two options: 1) don't set up a web site. 2) learn.
Well, again, I think this is a broken metaphor. It's more like people looked in through that window, from the street. And that the window had been set up explicitly for viewing from the street. And our friend just forgot to put some stuff away that he didn't want seen. It just so happens that, on the web, the view and the original are the same. But, really, it's your http server. If it gets a request, it is your choice how to handle it.
Cheers,
prat
It's built right into your os:
chmod 500 some_file_I_dont_want_the_world_to_see.jpeg
True in the physical world. A non-password protected network resource, without a clear posting that it is not to be accessed, is pretty much fair game though.
Fallacious metaphor. I can't rummage through your house through a standardized protocol that your house is fully accepting and responding to.
Yeah, just ask the RIAA...
<laugh/> The web delivers content through an HTTP server. A web server is free to respond hower it likes to whatever request is made of it. If you don't understand how to make it not deliver content you don't want delivered, you have two options: 1) don't set up a web site. 2) learn.
Well, again, I think this is a broken metaphor. It's more like people looked in through that window, from the street. And that the window had been set up explicitly for viewing from the street. And our friend just forgot to put some stuff away that he didn't want seen. It just so happens that, on the web, the view and the original are the same. But, really, it's your http server. If it gets a request, it is your choice how to handle it.
Cheers,
prat
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What is "private?"
Precisely what america needs. More lawsuits.
<rolls-eyes/>
Cheers,
prat
Precisely what america needs. More lawsuits.
<rolls-eyes/>
Cheers,
prat
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What is "private?"
yeah, i don't think we need any legal action either.
but i do think that it's senseless to support PBZone as a website--i mean, you have to admit that the article is pathetic if not downright mean.
yeah, i don't think we need any legal action either.
but i do think that it's senseless to support PBZone as a website--i mean, you have to admit that the article is pathetic if not downright mean.
Interesting to note that the PBZone.com thread in MacDebate.com does not exist (anymore). Censorship anyone?
Fight The Power
TheMessenger
Fight The Power
TheMessenger
Not really, that thread's sole purpose was to spread a hate filled message.
Opening up something for general debate is one thing, once it devolves into vile verbal vomit it should get killed.
While you may not agree with what the guy did, it's still best to remain calm and avoid placing yourself in a position where you act worse than they do (ie, DoS attacks, actual slander, etc.)
If you look at the print media and the tv broadcasts, a few times a year reporters go much further than this guy -- basically reaching into peoples lives and holding a trial in the media, even credit card info is sometimes broadcast along with setting up shop on people's front lawns.
---
Just think what would happen to your life if you're ever branded an "investigative lead"...
I didn't get to see the actual thread, so I did not know what was posted in there. I just thought it was interesting to note that the thread that was being advertised was not there anymore. Nothing more, nothing less.
Fight The Power (Well, Sometimes)
TheMessenger
Fight The Power (Well, Sometimes)
TheMessenger
It's not the first time that Shadowfax has posted wisdom on this forum.
Everyone makes mistakes - Adam has made one and he will have to learn to live with the consequences. It's certainly not the end of the world for him, he's obviously talented (at movie making, not server administration) and he's got his whole life ahead of him.
The movie he produced is very good, and I admire the fact that he's using this situation to promote it - maybe something good will come out of the mistake after all.
Everyone makes mistakes - Adam has made one and he will have to learn to live with the consequences. It's certainly not the end of the world for him, he's obviously talented (at movie making, not server administration) and he's got his whole life ahead of him.
The movie he produced is very good, and I admire the fact that he's using this situation to promote it - maybe something good will come out of the mistake after all.
i loved your qualification. i haven't had time to see his film, but i thought it was great to point out that this guy is not incompetent--just not a pro at administering his server. it's been said that you should know better--learn or not use apache, so to speak. i strongly disagree. to learn, you must use. this guy is a college student, a youth, and as such is in the process of learning. i don't think he needs someone to give up on him, to toss him aside; on the contrary, he needs someone to say, hey, buddy, you're not an apache guru i see... you should be more careful with company secrets next time. here, here's a second chance. truth is, most of us in this life are on our 50th chance or worse, buddy. it's no big deal. you live, you learn, you don't do it again.
suggested reading from my senior english class: Mark Twain - Advice to Youth.
Where's the grey?
As I see it this is the reall issue. PBZone actually has nothing to do with it:
1) The guy takes screen shots of internal Apple info (thus violating his NDA)
No problem as long as no one finds out.
2) He copies them to some kind of removable media and brings them home.
A little problem, as I'm sure Apple does not allow you to take info of site
3) He goes through the trouble of converting these to jpegs and bluring sensitive info.
Why would he do this if they were for his own personal use?
4) He puts them on a publicly accessible web server and posts a link to that server on slashdot!
OK he may actually not have meant to have this directory publicly accessible, if so, then it should have been password protected, or at least the ownership of the files should have been limited to him. The fact that they were there and anyone could open them makes him guilty of violating his NDA.
Now to follow the analogy of someone breaking into your house. It's actually more like someone walked past your front window, saw a box stating "Property of xyz corp, do not remove from xyz headquarters". So they call xyz and tell them that they saw some of their property at this address.
If a CIA agent leaves a top secret briefcase in a cab, and the cab driver reads the documents, who has broken the law? It depends. If the case is locked and says top secret etc... then the cab driver. if it's open with no identification, then the agent is at fault.
This guy was 100% wrong. Wether through ignorance, naivety, stupidity or maliciousness I can't say, but he was wrong and if nothing else deserved to lose his job.
As I see it this is the reall issue. PBZone actually has nothing to do with it:
1) The guy takes screen shots of internal Apple info (thus violating his NDA)
No problem as long as no one finds out.
2) He copies them to some kind of removable media and brings them home.
A little problem, as I'm sure Apple does not allow you to take info of site
3) He goes through the trouble of converting these to jpegs and bluring sensitive info.
Why would he do this if they were for his own personal use?
4) He puts them on a publicly accessible web server and posts a link to that server on slashdot!
OK he may actually not have meant to have this directory publicly accessible, if so, then it should have been password protected, or at least the ownership of the files should have been limited to him. The fact that they were there and anyone could open them makes him guilty of violating his NDA.
Now to follow the analogy of someone breaking into your house. It's actually more like someone walked past your front window, saw a box stating "Property of xyz corp, do not remove from xyz headquarters". So they call xyz and tell them that they saw some of their property at this address.
If a CIA agent leaves a top secret briefcase in a cab, and the cab driver reads the documents, who has broken the law? It depends. If the case is locked and says top secret etc... then the cab driver. if it's open with no identification, then the agent is at fault.
This guy was 100% wrong. Wether through ignorance, naivety, stupidity or maliciousness I can't say, but he was wrong and if nothing else deserved to lose his job.
Re: Re: What is "private?"
Like... a door? A standard protocol for entering/exiting a house
I'd be very interested in the legal definition of hacking, IIRC it's more like "unauthorised computer access". PBZone posting that link may well fall into that category.
I have to say, I've no respect for PBZone's actions. If they gave a crap about Apple's rights, they would have informed Apple about the screenshots, but wouldn't have drawn any attention to them by posting a link.
The ONLY interesting thing about these screenshots (and I'm an ex-Apple employee and have used these programs) was they were in a folder called Apple Internal.
PBZone took some mundane screenshots, sensationalised them by posting a link and making a big deal out of it, *BENEFITTED* from the exposure, and then hypocritically dumped Adam in it.
"Ooh look, some nasty person's posting Apple secrets - (See them here first!!!)"
They are as guilty as he is.
Mike.
Like... a door? A standard protocol for entering/exiting a house
I'd be very interested in the legal definition of hacking, IIRC it's more like "unauthorised computer access". PBZone posting that link may well fall into that category.
I have to say, I've no respect for PBZone's actions. If they gave a crap about Apple's rights, they would have informed Apple about the screenshots, but wouldn't have drawn any attention to them by posting a link.
The ONLY interesting thing about these screenshots (and I'm an ex-Apple employee and have used these programs) was they were in a folder called Apple Internal.
PBZone took some mundane screenshots, sensationalised them by posting a link and making a big deal out of it, *BENEFITTED* from the exposure, and then hypocritically dumped Adam in it.
"Ooh look, some nasty person's posting Apple secrets - (See them here first!!!)"
They are as guilty as he is.
Mike.
Nothing compelling about it. He messed up.
I work for a contractor to the US Gov't and you can bet I don't keep ANYTHING from work on my home computers.
Apple was well withing their rights to fire him and is probably considering legal action. Ignorance is no excuse.
My advise to this person, never keep anything on your home computer, NDA or not.
Re: Where's the grey?
it's possible for him to be 100% at fault and for PBzone to still be complete idiots/jerks. it's also 100% your fault for mispelling naïvete. my god, you're contributing to the demise of the english language, the written word! the fact of the matter is that he made a mistake; he didn't know that they were accessible online, just like you had no idea how to spell naïvete. how naïve you both are! maybe he did deserve to lose his job... but, maybe we'd all be damnéd if we got our just deserts. why be harsh on the guy? he's had plenty of that.
it's possible for him to be 100% at fault and for PBzone to still be complete idiots/jerks. it's also 100% your fault for mispelling naïvete. my god, you're contributing to the demise of the english language, the written word! the fact of the matter is that he made a mistake; he didn't know that they were accessible online, just like you had no idea how to spell naïvete. how naïve you both are! maybe he did deserve to lose his job... but, maybe we'd all be damnéd if we got our just deserts. why be harsh on the guy? he's had plenty of that.
Re: Re: Re: Where's the grey?
let's not play this game. my point wasn't his error, if we all faulted each other's errors, this would be one heck of a crappy forum. the point was that we overlook negligence, at least the first time, because everyone makes mistakes.
[edit] to address your correction:
perhaps MS, as well as the english-standardizing source have conceded to "naivety." but this is my point--contributing to the devolution of language. it used to be spelled "naïf," and now "naïve..." but of course, he isn't contributing to it anymore, because i have gone to my OED, and it already has "naivety," "naïvety," and "naïvete" in it (didn't remember to use my accent on my original, and apparently that's acceptable). looks like this one has already gone to the dogs, so to speak. so, bad illustration, but my point about mistakes stands.
[/edit]
Originally posted by Sun Baked
Strange...
My spell check program bounced on that version and offered naivety, naïveté, naiveté as ways to spell the word.
Of course it is a MS product, which is know to be riddled with spelling errors.
let's not play this game. my point wasn't his error, if we all faulted each other's errors, this would be one heck of a crappy forum. the point was that we overlook negligence, at least the first time, because everyone makes mistakes.
[edit] to address your correction:
perhaps MS, as well as the english-standardizing source have conceded to "naivety." but this is my point--contributing to the devolution of language. it used to be spelled "naïf," and now "naïve..." but of course, he isn't contributing to it anymore, because i have gone to my OED, and it already has "naivety," "naïvety," and "naïvete" in it (didn't remember to use my accent on my original, and apparently that's acceptable). looks like this one has already gone to the dogs, so to speak. so, bad illustration, but my point about mistakes stands.
[/edit]
Re: Re: Where's the grey?
1) Get a dictionary. You're a student use the library for once.
SYLLABICATION: na·ive·ty
PRONUNCIATION: n?-?v?t?, nä-, n?-??v?-t?, nä-
VARIANT_FORMS: or na·ïve·ty
NOUN: Artlessness or credulity; naiveté.
_
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by the Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
2) I didn't say that PBZone was fine I said that they actually had nothing to do with wether Adam was right or wrong. Just because someone points out that you are breaking the law in a totally asinine manner does not make you any less guilty.
3) He did know they were accessible online, he specifically altered them so that when someone saw them they wouldn't get any personal info from them. Not the work of someone who didn't mean for these to be seen. Let alone the fact that he is a Computer Science major and knows how to
He knew exactly what he was doing. Now wether he knew he was violating his NDA? I don't know. I do know that when I went to work for Quark I had a lawyer go over my NDA so I knew exactly what I was signing.
4) Get a life.
1) Get a dictionary. You're a student use the library for once.
SYLLABICATION: na·ive·ty
PRONUNCIATION: n?-?v?t?, nä-, n?-??v?-t?, nä-
VARIANT_FORMS: or na·ïve·ty
NOUN: Artlessness or credulity; naiveté.
_
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by the Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
2) I didn't say that PBZone was fine I said that they actually had nothing to do with wether Adam was right or wrong. Just because someone points out that you are breaking the law in a totally asinine manner does not make you any less guilty.
3) He did know they were accessible online, he specifically altered them so that when someone saw them they wouldn't get any personal info from them. Not the work of someone who didn't mean for these to be seen. Let alone the fact that he is a Computer Science major and knows how to
He knew exactly what he was doing. Now wether he knew he was violating his NDA? I don't know. I do know that when I went to work for Quark I had a lawyer go over my NDA so I knew exactly what I was signing.
4) Get a life.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Where's the grey?
Glad to see you found that dictionary
BTW "I" should be capitalized
OK Truce.
Good night.
Glad to see you found that dictionary
BTW "I" should be capitalized
OK Truce.
Good night.
Re: Re: Re: Where's the grey?
you should read the posts put up before making corrections that have already been posted, but hey, thanks for furthering my embarrassment. i am sorry for using that example, i wasn't aware that that particular spelling had been assimilated; i don't spend much time in recent literature, and i haven't looked that one up in a dictionary. that said, though, i resent your insulting my intelligence. i made a mistake. i'm also a national merit finalist, and i've gotten 4s and 5s on all of my 5 APs (as of my Junior year), with 6 more on the way by the end of this year. I'd appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions about people based on isolated singular experiences.
this is exactly what i have said previously. i was saying that i think you should have a little compassion on the guy.
the fact that he blurred the sensitive stuff is not conclusive evidence that he wanted to violate his NDA. furthermore, from what i have heard, the NDA does not prevent you from retaining such things at your home; it sounds like it just says you can't share them with non-apple folks. he could have blurred the stuff he didn't care about that he didn't want anyone to see should they come upon it in some strange manner (i won't even go there), and still have intended not to go out of his way to show them to someone, or even to leave them available for public access. true, he should have known better, but why are you telling me? i freely admitted that. that's entirely different from what i wanted to say.
i am sorry about the naivety thing, but, if you please, change my previous analogy from "naivety" to "wether." it's not wether, it's whether, and you have mispelled it 2 times now. i don't care, honestly. i was just making a point. you can defend yourself on some instances, of course, but the fact remains--you aren't perfect either.
about capitalization: if you read my posts, it's a formality i forego very consistently in electronic communication, and often for style. i don't do it because i am a senior and no one has told me to capitalize my first letters of sentences and my i's, or because i forget. my friends respect my skills of editing so much that they actually offer to pay me to edit their college admission essays and other important compositions.
you should read the posts put up before making corrections that have already been posted, but hey, thanks for furthering my embarrassment. i am sorry for using that example, i wasn't aware that that particular spelling had been assimilated; i don't spend much time in recent literature, and i haven't looked that one up in a dictionary. that said, though, i resent your insulting my intelligence. i made a mistake. i'm also a national merit finalist, and i've gotten 4s and 5s on all of my 5 APs (as of my Junior year), with 6 more on the way by the end of this year. I'd appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions about people based on isolated singular experiences.
this is exactly what i have said previously. i was saying that i think you should have a little compassion on the guy.
the fact that he blurred the sensitive stuff is not conclusive evidence that he wanted to violate his NDA. furthermore, from what i have heard, the NDA does not prevent you from retaining such things at your home; it sounds like it just says you can't share them with non-apple folks. he could have blurred the stuff he didn't care about that he didn't want anyone to see should they come upon it in some strange manner (i won't even go there), and still have intended not to go out of his way to show them to someone, or even to leave them available for public access. true, he should have known better, but why are you telling me? i freely admitted that. that's entirely different from what i wanted to say.
i am sorry about the naivety thing, but, if you please, change my previous analogy from "naivety" to "wether." it's not wether, it's whether, and you have mispelled it 2 times now. i don't care, honestly. i was just making a point. you can defend yourself on some instances, of course, but the fact remains--you aren't perfect either.
about capitalization: if you read my posts, it's a formality i forego very consistently in electronic communication, and often for style. i don't do it because i am a senior and no one has told me to capitalize my first letters of sentences and my i's, or because i forget. my friends respect my skills of editing so much that they actually offer to pay me to edit their college admission essays and other important compositions.
Originally posted by Sun Baked
As I said, MS spell check sucks ...
much as i hate to admit it, MS was right at i was wrong, lol.
MS proved you and JBracy right on that particular count.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Where's the grey?
Of course the NDA does not prevent you from retaining ANYTHING in your own home...it's just that Apple seriously overreacts every time something like this happens. I know that it's possible for them to lose their market share and stuff like that but does it really make a difference if someone (like me) gave out copies of prerelease software to anyone who wanted it? Not really. Besides, I have a lot of Apple software on my servers-which is technically violating the NDA i signed if people who didn't sign an NDA are allowed to access but do I really care? No...