Apple Said to Shift to Lower Power IGZO Displays for MacBook Pro Later This Year

[kyykesko]

There has to be some reason for not making them thicker, adding back USB-A and HDMI in the process. Right?

That will not happen. It'd make the machine more useful RIGHT NOW instead of 2 years in the future (when the machine in itself will be obsolete). Dongledongledongle!
[doublepost=1483898713][/doublepost]

No, CF is a must! Wait, no, micro-SD is a must! Wait... XQD is a must! No... CFast is a must!

I don't want my machine burdened with the needs of your narrow use case. Do you want to carry the bulk needed to support mine? I'll drop the demands for my various card readers if you drop the demand for yours...

You fail to realize SD card slot was an inexpensive way to increase the absurdly expensive on-board storage in previous versions? I never ejected my JetDrive, I used an external reader when I needed to transfer pictures from the camera. I did love the ability to add 256GB of storage without paying $1000 extra for it. Even now I'd love to have more, but not at the prices they are asking for in the new MBProprietary.

 

[theluggage]

VGA is not outdated if you work in an office with a projector that requires VGA, although admittedly that's rare now.

Not that rare - and if you're going to give a presentation in a hotel conference room or suchlike you'd better pack that VGA adapter. I've also been in situations where the projector did have HDMI but you'd have needed a stepladder to plug it in...

Practical upshot is that anybody who uses their MBP to give presentations on the go will need both the Apple display adapters (one is VGA + USB-A, the other HDMI + USB-A).

I don't think that anybody is suggesting that the MBP should sprout a VGA adapter, though, and swapping the existing TB2/DisplayPort sockets for TB3/USB-C was probably inevitable. Part of the problem is not any one specific requirement, but that everything changed - power, USB and display - in one go, and the total number of ports went down.

What would be nice is an Apple-sanctioned USB-C to Mini-DP adapter that would also let us re-use our old MiniDP-to-X adapters: I can only find one on Amazon (or what is obviously the same product under various brands) and it has iffy reviews.

Just get a USB-C to HDMI cable (the USB-IF recently approved a standard protocol for cables).

...all fine and dandy, but it was only announced in September, so does anybody know if its actually implemented in the MBPs (it would probably have to be baked into the Intel TB3 controller chips).

Or, with the old rMBP, JUST PLUG IN TO THE HDMI PORT that was there...

Any charger and cable conforming to the USB power delivery standard will work.

Except the 15" MBP needs 85W and the USB power delivery standard "default" is only 60W and a lot of USB-C cables and chargers are limited to that (including the Belkin cables on the Apple store).

Plus, there are well-documented stories about 3rd-party USB-C cables frying computers - so the moral of the story is probably to stick to well-respected brands, who tend to charge nearly as much as Apple (if they're not the ones on the Apple store anyway).

Oh, and some of us already have multiple MagSafe chargers, including ones built into perfectly good Cinema/Thunderbolt displays that Apple were selling until earlier last year.

In 18 months USB-C will be ubiquitous.

...probably, but USB-A will still be ubiquitous, since there's plenty of new PCs (and Macs!), printers, disc drives, memory sticks etc. being sold which only have USB-A, and low-rent conference rooms will still have projectors with VGA or (if you're really lucky) HDMI inputs.

Its quite simple - the MBP should have had 2xUSB-C/TB3, 2xUSB3.0, 1xHDMI and Magsafe (if you wanted to power it over USB-C, from a dock for example, you could). Nobody asked for it to be thinner - that's what the MacBook/MBA are for.

(Apple are bonkers to let the MBA stagnate too - its probably the classic laptop design for people who do want ultimate portability).

Now, in 18 months, maybe the time will be right for new laptops to drop USB-A... but not today.

 

[Beachguy]

Leave only one USB-c port, make it 40% thinner, introduce external keyboard (innovation!), cut out the internal one, slap an additional 500$ price tag to the mix, call it pro, say it's courage, and call it a day. Weeeee...

Tim, it's good to see you here on MR forums!

 

[bartvk]

The MBP still isnt even close to being a Retina version of the highest pre-Retina 17" display available.

Wow, I hadn't thought about that. I once got a 2009 17" from a friend, and was amazed how nice that screen was. He had bought a 2012 rMBP and while we fawned over the sharpness, the real estate was pretty bad compared to the good ol' 17". Damn shame it's never coming back.
[doublepost=1483907768][/doublepost]

Except the 15" MBP needs 85W and the USB power delivery standard "default" is only 60W and a lot of USB-C cables and chargers are limited to that (including the Belkin cables on the Apple store).

Oh, and some of us already have multiple MagSafe chargers

I've never seen my power peak above 45 watts with the way I use the MBP (that's Xcode on a 4K monitor, no devices charging off the laptop). I use a 45W charger on a daily basis.

Agreed on the multiple magsafe chargers. These are good chargers, and I still have about five or six of those. We'll all have to go through the hassle of selling them, or letting them gather dust in a drawer, to eventually be thrown away... Bit of a shame.

 

[KPOM]

Not that rare - and if you're going to give a presentation in a hotel conference room or suchlike you'd better pack that VGA adapter. I've also been in situations where the projector did have HDMI but you'd have needed a stepladder to plug it in...

Practical upshot is that anybody who uses their MBP to give presentations on the go will need both the Apple display adapters (one is VGA + USB-A, the other HDMI + USB-A).

Yes, but seeing as Skylake chipsets no longer support VGA output natively, and it's been a long time since Macs had VGA ports, this required an adapter even on the old MacBook/MacBook Pros.

I don't think that anybody is suggesting that the MBP should sprout a VGA adapter, though, and swapping the existing TB2/DisplayPort sockets for TB3/USB-C was probably inevitable. Part of the problem is not any one specific requirement, but that everything changed - power, USB and display - in one go, and the total number of ports went down.

But the bandwidth of each port went up. One of those ports is sufficient to drive a multi-port adapter or dock that has as many USB-A, HDMI, Ethernet, etc. as one needs.

...all fine and dandy, but it was only announced in September, so does anybody know if its actually implemented in the MBPs (it would probably have to be baked into the Intel TB3 controller chips).

The standard was for cables. USB-C already natively supports HDMI output. Here is a $27 cable from Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/CHOETECH-Thu...&qid=1483912919&sr=1-3&keywords=usb-c+to+hdmi

Except the 15" MBP needs 85W and the USB power delivery standard "default" is only 60W and a lot of USB-C cables and chargers are limited to that (including the Belkin cables on the Apple store).

Plus, there are well-documented stories about 3rd-party USB-C cables frying computers - so the moral of the story is probably to stick to well-respected brands, who tend to charge nearly as much as Apple (if they're not the ones on the Apple store anyway).

There are 2 cable standards for USB PD. One is for up to 3A/60W output, and the other is for 5A/100W output. The 12" MacBook actually uses a non-standard power delivery mode that got grandfathered in, but Apple's cables now support the 5A/100W output. A 3A/60W is fine for the 12" MacBook and 13" Pro. And even a 3A/60W will keep a 15" MacBook going in most cases, and certainly charge it while it is asleep.

Oh, and some of us already have multiple MagSafe chargers, including ones built into perfectly good Cinema/Thunderbolt displays that Apple were selling until earlier last year.

And most of us don't. However, quality USB-C cables are quickly becoming plentiful.

...probably, but USB-A will still be ubiquitous, since there's plenty of new PCs (and Macs!), printers, disc drives, memory sticks etc. being sold which only have USB-A, and low-rent conference rooms will still have projectors with VGA or (if you're really lucky) HDMI inputs.

Its quite simple - the MBP should have had 2xUSB-C/TB3, 2xUSB3.0, 1xHDMI and Magsafe (if you wanted to power it over USB-C, from a dock for example, you could). Nobody asked for it to be thinner - that's what the MacBook/MBA are for.

I disagree. The old MacBook was heavy by modern standards. Even if they had made it thicker, they'd have used the space for more battery, not legacy ports.

Dropping HDMI is fine since the cables and adapters are cheap. What does surprise me is that Apple didn't release an Apple-branded or Apple-endorsed MagSafe cable (something like the Griffin Breaksafe, but official). That said, it didn't take long for the market to respond. Griffin's cable is fine for the 13" MacBook Pro, and they are coming out with one that will support 100W output.

(Apple are bonkers to let the MBA stagnate too - its probably the classic laptop design for people who do want ultimate portability).

They have a superior design in the MacBook. It's obvious that they will drop the MacBook Air once they are comfortable dropping the price of the 13" non Touch Bar MacBook Pro and/or the 12" MacBook. That's effectively what they did in 2010. I keep my 12" MacBook for plane travel. There is no better Mac or PC design (except maybe the copycats like the ASUS Zenbook) for an airline tray.

Now, in 18 months, maybe the time will be right for new laptops to drop USB-A... but not today.

No, now's the time. Peripheral designers need the motivation to make USB-A. Otherwise we'll wind up in the same vicious cycle that kept VGA around for way longer than it needed to be.

That's not how Apple does things and never has been. Why waste space with less capable older versions of ports? If they replaced 2 of the TB3 with USB-A it would not be possible to charge the MacBook from either side (or hook up a TB/USB-C monitor to either side), and you would not be able to hook up faster USB-C 3.1 Gen 2 devices to as many ports. Right now for $18 you can get your 2 USB-A ports back. But no adapter works in reverse.

I'm not saying Apple couldn't have done a better roll out of the MacBook Pro. It would be nice to have a single multi-port adapter with both VGA and HDMI (I see some on Amazon, but not with power pass through). Also, since they are only charging $9 for the USB-C to A adapter, perhaps they could have taken a cue from the iPhone 7 launch and just included an adapter in the box this year. That would have addressed about 90% of the complaints.

 

[otternonsense]

The glass edge and backplane circuitry of IGZO displays can also be made smaller, possibly leading to a thinner MacBook Pro.

For the love of Steve, NO! It's the asinine pursuit of thinness that gave us this disastrous new MBP in the first place

 

[KPOM]

For the love of Steve, NO! It's the asinine pursuit of thinness that gave us this disastrous new MBP in the first place

You think Steve Jobs would disapprove of a thinner MacBook Pro or think of the current version as a disaster? I don't. He introduced the MacBook Air by taking it out of an interoffice envelope and said that one day all notebooks would look like it.

He might chide the company for having too cluttered a product line (e.g. leaving a few 2015 models around along with the Air), or insisting that they find a way to fit the sculpted battery, but I can totally visualize him introducing the current MacBook Pro and talking up why they did what they did and how great it is.

 

[dbri306]

No, CF is a must! Wait, no, micro-SD is a must! Wait... XQD is a must! No... CFast is a must!

I don't want my machine burdened with the needs of your narrow use case. Do you want to carry the bulk needed to support mine? I'll drop the demands for my various card readers if you drop the demand for yours...

SD card is an industry standard, every micro SD comes with SD adaptor - so it's not an issue at all. SD slot also was a great way to expend a storage for a very reasonable price by placing special short adapter with micro SD card for movies and other storage-grade files. Also people that use SD often time away from home and adaptors. Less so with USB and HDMI. But of cause you can't make everyone happy, eh?

 

[Analog Kid]

Every micro SD comes with SD adaptor - so it's not an issue at all.

But I thought we hated adapters...

But of cause you can't make everyone happy, eh?

That's right. That's the only point I was trying to make...

Everybody has their own personal wants and needs, and every product has tradeoffs. People personalize these decisions too much. I never use the SD slot on my MBP, but I didn't go around ranting about how Apple screwed up by ignoring my usage pattern and including it...

 

[KPOM]

But I thought we hated adapters...

That's right. That's the only point I was trying to make...

Everybody has their own personal wants and needs, and every product has tradeoffs. People personalize these decisions too much. I never use the SD slot on my MBP, but I didn't go around ranting about how Apple screwed up by ignoring my usage pattern and including it...

To me the biggest legitimate gripes are price and battery life. Everything else is a function of those two. Yes, adapters can be inconvenient, but if Apple had included adapters for USB-A, HDMI, SD and TB-2 in the box would we be hearing as many complaints? Probably not. And if the battery life were as claimed no one would be complaining about how it should be thicker and heavier.

Price is fixable if sales disappoint. The battery may improve next year with Kaby Lake and IGZO, and the slightly larger sculpted battery Apple supposedly wanted to use, but obviously won't help those with the Skylake version.

 

[corelle]

This guy probably disagrees.[/QUOTE]

And this guy make part II to rectify his unfair test himself.

 

[ralphthemagi]

That will not happen. It'd make the machine more useful RIGHT NOW instead of 2 years in the future (when the machine in itself will be obsolete). Dongledongledongle!
[doublepost=1483898713][/doublepost]

You can just buy new cables today. They are like $8 a piece. They have USB-C cables for DisplayPort, Lightning, USB 3 Type-A, Type-B, and Micro-B as well as USB 2 Type-B, Mini-B, and Micro-B.

The beauty of USB-C is the complete, across the board, compatibility with everything that matters—today. Only in the case of a hardwired USB Type-A connector do you really need an adapter. It took us 20 years to finally get a universal serial port. 20 years. We finally did it.

 

[Vash108]

Same panel Razer is using.

 

[theluggage]

But the bandwidth of each port went up. One of those ports is sufficient to drive a multi-port adapter or dock that has as many USB-A, HDMI, Ethernet, etc. as one needs.

There's no point having workstation-class I/O bandwidth with a thermally-throttled mobile CPU & GPU. As it stands, 2 of the TB3 ports have limited bandwidth because the CPU doesn't have enough PCIe lanes.

...except they've now made a multi-port adapter or dock essential if you have any number of peripherals. Otherwise, plug in, say, a display, a charger, an external keyboard and a card reader and that's all your ports gone (plus, you'll need 2-3 USB-C to USB-A dongles for that).

My MBP mainly "commutes" from office desk to work desk, all I need to move is the laptop - now I'd either have to carry a dock, or buy two docks so I can leave one on each desk.

The standard was for cables. USB-C already natively supports HDMI output.

No, it doesn't. That "cable" you linked to is an active adapter that uses USB-C DisplayPort Alt Mode and converts the DisplayPort signal to HDMI (read the small print). The announcement in September was "USB-C HDMI Alt Mode" which allows native HDMI to be sent down a USB-C cable (and supports various HDMI features that might not work with a DP adapter) but it won't work on existing stuff:

For starters, it's not backwards compatible with existing devices or upgradeable via software, so those currently using dongles will have to hang onto them - Arstechnica.co.uk ​

I disagree. The old MacBook was heavy by modern standards.

Not when compared to PC laptops offering comparable connectivity and power (look at the processor model & power rating, don't be distracted by Intel's meaningless i3/i5/i7 branding). E.g. the Dell XPS15 (the one with the comparable 85Wh battery) is 2kg vs. 2.04kg for the comparable 2015 rMBP 15. Anyway, part of the weight reduction of the 2016 MBP has come from making the battery 20% smaller...

Apple have the 12" MacBook, the Air and the non-touchbar MBP (most of the latter's problems could be fixed by crossing off "Pro", writing in "Air" and dropping the price) to compete in the thin'n'crispy stakes.

If they replaced 2 of the TB3 with USB-A it would not be possible to charge the MacBook from either side (or hook up a TB/USB-C monitor to either side)

Really? That's the payoff for losing all the other ports? NB: the new MBPs are hardly ambidextrous - if you're loading it up with peripherals you're still going to need to prioritise displays, power and USB3 on one side, TB3 on the other...

and you would not be able to hook up faster USB-C 3.1 Gen 2 devices to as many ports.

...but, hey, you can run 4 of those off a single TB3 port - I thought you liked multiport adapters?

Anyway, USB 3.1 Gen 2 also works with USB 3 A-connectors. Apple could put a USB3.1g2 controller instead of the second TB3 controller if that were important.

 

[KPOM]

There's no point having workstation-class I/O bandwidth with a thermally-throttled mobile CPU & GPU. As it stands, 2 of the TB3 ports have limited bandwidth because the CPU doesn't have enough PCIe lanes.

So you are saying Thunderbolt is pointless? It enables 5K displays, for starters.

The limited bandwidth is only on the 13" model, and it is still sufficient for USB 3.1 Gen 2 as well as Thunderbolt 3 (though likely limited to 20Gbps since it has half the bandwidth). However, that's as fast as Thunderbolt 2.

...except they've now made a multi-port adapter or dock essential if you have any number of peripherals. Otherwise, plug in, say, a display, a charger, an external keyboard and a card reader and that's all your ports gone (plus, you'll need 2-3 USB-C to USB-A dongles for that).

My MBP mainly "commutes" from office desk to work desk, all I need to move is the laptop - now I'd either have to carry a dock, or buy two docks so I can leave one on each desk.

I didn't say there was no inconvenience. However, the relatively slim Apple multiport adapter has pass-through charging, so it takes care of your display, charger, and external keyboard, leaving you 3 ports, one of which can handle your SD card reader, still leaving you 2. And why not use a Bluetooth keyboard? The Magic Keyboard has been wireless for while now (though I've always used the built-in keyboard on any notebook).

No, it doesn't. That "cable" you linked to is an active adapter that uses USB-C DisplayPort Alt Mode and converts the DisplayPort signal to HDMI (read the small print). The announcement in September was "USB-C HDMI Alt Mode" which allows native HDMI to be sent down a USB-C cable (and supports various HDMI features that might not work with a DP adapter) but it won't work on existing stuff:

Point taken. But the old HDMI port wouldn't support new HDMI specifications, either.

...but, hey, you can run 4 of those off a single TB3 port - I thought you liked multiport adapters?

Anyway, USB 3.1 Gen 2 also works with USB 3 A-connectors. Apple could put a USB3.1g2 controller instead of the second TB3 controller if that were important.

Why bother doing that when the TB3 controller offers greater functionality? And in any case, if it wasn't obvious with the MacBook release, it should be obvious now that Apple sees the future as mostly wireless. The MacBook Pro gets 4 ports in recognition that, at least in the interim, "pro" buyers will more likely be hooking peripherals physically.

 

[theluggage]

So you are saying Thunderbolt is pointless? It enables 5K displays, for starters.

No. I want TB3/USB-C on my next computer - just not four of them at the expense of everything else... also at the not-inconsiderable expense of having to include two Intel TB3 controllers on the logic board... The old 2015 rMBP with 2xTB3 in place of TB2/DP, plus all its other ports would be a sensible compromise given the current state of TB3/USB-C uptake.

However, the relatively slim Apple multiport adapter has pass-through charging, so it takes care of your display, charger, and external keyboard

...actually, my main display at home is DisplayPort or DVI and I have another computer connected to the DVI, so I'd need a multiport adapter with DisplayPort (OK, they exist, and I have spare DP-to-DP cables). OK, so live a little and get the LG TB3 display... which only has USB-C downstream ports, no ethernet so I'll still need a USB-A adapter and an ethernet dongle to hang off the back...

At work I have a 27" Apple LED Cinema Display with MiniDisplayport (options: one no-brand USB-C to MiniDP dongle with iffy reviews or, I think, one of the recently announced TB3 docks that isn't actually available yet). Of course, the MagSafe adapter in the ACD at work would be redundant. Oh, but when I am on the road I'll still need VGA and probably HDMI...

Sorry. Maybe you live a peripheral-free life... but if you don't, and don't fancy replacing everything you use at home, work and on the road, then its a hot mess.

And why not use a Bluetooth keyboard? The Magic Keyboard has been wireless for while now (though I've always used the built-in keyboard on any notebook).

Because I want a full-size external keyboard with number pad - and since I already have a couple of Apple wired external keyboards knocking around, having to buy another one from the not-overwhelming choice of full size with number pad bluetooth keyboards on the market. (I think there's about one, from Logitech, with weird round buttons that I'm not sure I like - NB, I'm in the UK so don't bother pointing me at US-layout-only options).

And in any case, if it wasn't obvious with the MacBook release, it should be obvious now that Apple sees the future as mostly wireless.

Yeah... the wireless office: coming soon to a big flying-saucer-shaped echo chamber in California.

 

[KPOM]

No. I want TB3/USB-C on my next computer - just not four of them at the expense of everything else... also at the not-inconsiderable expense of having to include two Intel TB3 controllers on the logic board... The old 2015 rMBP with 2xTB3 in place of TB2/DP, plus all its other ports would be a sensible compromise given the current state of TB3/USB-C uptake.


Yeah... the wireless office: coming soon to a big flying-saucer-shaped echo chamber in California.

It sounds like you have an extreme use case where you want to use lots of older peripherals and wired connections.

At the office our network is wireless (including printer and scanner functions). At home I have a wireless scanner (they are pretty cheap these days) and printer. As for numeric keypads, have you considered a Bluetooth number pad only? That way you could use the internal keyboard and still have number keys.

 

[theluggage]

It sounds like you have an extreme use case where you want to use lots of older peripherals and wired connections.

Sounds like you regard any use case other than your own as "extreme". Maybe all the other people complaining about Apple's USB-C-or-die policy have "extreme" use cases?

I'm not trying to tell you that you should be using more wires - if the 2016 MBP is great for you then congratulations! However, for those of us for whom it isn't perfect, Apple doesn't have many alternatives - the only other machines that can really be described as "current" are the 12" MacBook and - at a push - the 27" iMac... With such a restricted range - compared to the diversity of PC hardware available - Apple really need their "Pro" range to be a veritable Swiss Army Knife. Instead, we get a thin'n'crispy ultrabook with more high-bandwidth i/o ports than the mobile CPU and GPU can usefully serve, at the expense of all currently ubiquitous ports and a battery that only lasts as long as its predecessor on carefully chosen benchmarks that favour the Skylake power-saving features.

At the office our network is wireless (including printer and scanner functions).

...which is still slower & less reliable than a 1Gb ethernet cable - or do I have to replace my wireless router to the absolute latest top-of-the-range as well?

As for numeric keypads, have you considered a Bluetooth number pad only?

Sorry to shout but why should I have to? I've got perfectly good full keyboards on my desks at both home and work, and for a desktop keyboard there's no huge advantage to having a wireless keyboard - quite the opposite, because it adds the totally unnecessary complication of needing batteries in the keyboard (or a charging cable).

 

[Elijen]

Just let me know the price so I can have up for it. I'll sell/give away my 2016 15" MBP.
[doublepost=1483737944][/doublepost]
According to your siggy you didn't upgrade as there was no need to remember?
[doublepost=1483738046][/doublepost]
You keep telling yourself that... you really think Apple was going to go up forever even as they've been the one of/most valuable company for years now.

Well I needed another machine and the thing from my sig is slowly dying (only works with external display). Otherwise I could have easily used it for another 2-3 years (maybe just replacing it's battery)

 

[Laird Knox]

But I bet you still don't get into the red zone of activity monitor even doing that.

Activity no, but I do frequently use up all available RAM resources. Even after I replaced the 5400 RPM drive with an SSD it still slows things down in short order.
[doublepost=1484678514][/doublepost]

That's true...

I suspect 99%+ Apple customers will not be doing or need to do that kind of photo processing on their laptop. Speaking as a photographer, I suspect that's true for 99% of photographers as well.

Apple knows who their customer base is.

Oh I agree - as you pointed out by highlighting that in my response.

I was replying to the notion that nobody needs more than 16 GB. My needs are outside the norm and 16 GB will support most everything for some time to come.

 

[cardiac89]

I think the MBP 2017 isn't really a good deal to buy. The next generation to it will get completely reworked CPU with 10nm, better energy efficiency, lower heat. Im really thinking about buying a MBP 2016 or wait to 2018, although my Macbook Air really ****s me up.
What do you guys think about it?

 

[MplsP]

I think the MBP 2017 isn't really a good deal to buy. The next generation to it will get completely reworked CPU with 10nm, better energy efficiency, lower heat. Im really thinking about buying a MBP 2016 or wait to 2018, although my Macbook Air really ****s me up.
What do you guys think about it?

I agree - the new 2016/17 MBPs are not that good of a deal. From what I can see, compared to the 2015 MPB you get:
A brighter screen, faster memory & processor (that combined give maybe a 10% increase in performance), slightly thinner profile, a different keyboard that most people don't like and strictly USB C ports, which are less convenient for most people and a touch bar that some people like, others don't and potential battery issues, all at approximately a $300 price increase over the last model.

USB C/Thunderbolt 3 is definitely faster, and for people who need the increased video bandwidth the new models are worth it, but most people don't need anything that USB 3 doesn't offer, meaning that it's just less convenient. All in all I think a refurbished 2015 MBP is a much better deal.

 

[Jcque23]

Any news?