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I’m literally so confused about how this case could be taken to court.

Whole Foods has very strict requirements on what ingredients the products they sell in their stores must have or not have. Yet, I can’t imagine any company suing Whole Foods for not allowing them to be sold at in their stores if they don’t comply with their requirements. Seems pretty straight forward. People shop at Whole Foods cause they know they’ll get vetted products, same exact for the iPhone and App Store.
 

I think we all know how to search the web and cherry pick malware articles!
Obviously we all don’t!

The reason he posted these was because someone said they’d never seen anything about malware on Android before!
 
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So I pay for the AppStore:
1. iPhone
2. Buying the app
3. Buying the subscription
4. Cost reported to the users due to the money the company needs to invest to adapt to the Apple rules on subscriptions.

So not only many companies looses money because of Apple monopolistic rules, but the users are even in a worst position than content providers since they pay the price for the AppStore 3 times if not 4.
I guess you should vote with your money and not buy any Apple products? I don't think anyone forces you to get yourself an iPhone?

Seriously, you gave money to Apple and in return you get to own a phone which appears to be very popular. You can throw said phone immediately into a river and nobody will fault you for it, since you owned it.

You gave money to Apple and in return you get to use an application which you think is worth your time, which a developer put up in the App Store, and which Apple also pays. Said developer obviously thinks that it is worth their while doing business with Apple, and therefore list the app in the App Store. Else they would have brought their apps elsewhere.

You gave money to Apple and in return you get to consume contents which you think will entertain you, which a content provider list in Apple's digital storefront, and which Apple also pays. Said content provider obviously thinks that it is worth their while doing business with Apple, and therefore list the content in the Apple digital storefront. Otherwise they would have brought their contents elsewhere.

I don't see any problem in the above.

Nobody is being forced to do anything.

Where is the problem?

Are you saying that when you go to buy stuffs in your local supermarket, you complain to the store manager that you're paying the supermarket multiple times when you buy more than 1 item from the supermarket because they mark up all items sold there?
 
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"Epic Games CEO Tim Sweeney testified at the trial today, saying he wanted consumers to see that Apple exercises "total control" over iOS and software available on the platform."

Erm... yes... we know, that's exactly what we paid for and want!! If I didn't, I'd go Android.
The argument against this is "just don't use the 3rd party stores" I guess.
Im not sure yet what side im on here lol. The ability to side load apps could be cool for some things.
 
The argument against this is "just don't use the 3rd party stores" I guess.
Im not sure yet what side im on here lol. The ability to side load apps could be cool for some things.
That's the argument everyone defending Epic will say, but from a customer's point of view it isn't really a good one.

Before you know it there will be a Microsoft App Store, Adobe App Store, Google App Store, Epic Games App Store, Steam App Store and possibly even a Galaxy App Store and Google Play App Store (sounds hilarious but that's really what could become reality).

Just imagine from a customer's point of view how bad this can be:
  • Want a Google App? Get the Google App Store first
  • Want an Adobe App? Get the Adobe App Store first. Oh it requires a subscription? Time to fill in those payment details again.
  • Want a Microsoft App? Sorry bud, gotta download the Microsoft App Store first. Want to pay for a subsribtion? Fill in your payment details again.
  • Want this new cool game? It's an Epic Games App Store exclusive, gotta download that first. Want to purchase an in-game purchase? Time to fill in those payment details again.

The argument of "don't use 3rd party stores", isn't really a good argument in my opinion.

I do think the 30% cut is too much, but I do not want 3rd party app stores on my iPhone. As a customer that would ruin my user experience on an iPhone.
 
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I guess you should vote with your money and not buy any Apple products? I don't think anyone forces you to get yourself an iPhone?

Seriously, you gave money to Apple and in return you get to own a phone which appears to be very popular. You can throw said phone immediately into a river and nobody will fault you for it, since you owned it.

You gave money to Apple and in return you get to use an application which you think is worth your time, which a developer put up in the App Store, and which Apple also pays. Said developer obviously thinks that it is worth their while doing business with Apple, and therefore list the app in the App Store. Else they would have brought their apps elsewhere.

You gave money to Apple and in return you get to consume contents which you think will entertain you, which a content provider list in Apple's digital storefront, and which Apple also pays. Said content provider obviously thinks that it is worth their while doing business with Apple, and therefore list the app in the Apple digital storefront. Otherwise they would have brought their contents elsewhere.

I don't see any problem in the above.

Nobody is being forced to do anything.

Where is the problem?

Are you saying that when you go to buy stuffs in your local supermarket, you complain to the store manager that you're paying the supermarket multiple times when you buy more than 1 item from the supermarket because they mark up all items sold there?
Well, not, I don't have that freedom:

I bought Apps before Apple started abusing it's position. Therefore, if now I leave, I would have to buy those apps again. When I started buying those Apple, monopolistic rules for in-app purchases were not there.

Therefore, Apple managed to force me stay when the iPhone, then managed to force me pay more for the AppStore.


And well, laws are anyway stronger than contracts you know. The Appstore and smartphones market is not at all the same than what is was at the beginning. It evolved into general computing, where now, the presence on each store is a must, especially that Apple tries to kill webapps. Therefore, each platform is a complete separate market, in which law applies.

I can anyway buy a product and want the law to apply to it.


Do you also think that people have the choice with their underpaid job to go somewhere else and that it is normal to let companies underpay their employees? Violate human rights? Too much freedom in market is an utter stupidity. It is like raising a child without teaching him any rule. Most companies are like children, they need rules otherwise they will just take advantage of the situation, bully and that's it. Most adults are not better, if not even worse than children. Otherwise we wouldn't need to create so many utterly stupid laws.
 
I do think the 30% cut is too much, but I do not want 3rd party app stores on my iPhone. As a customer that would ruin my user experience on an iPhone.
Why? You don’t have to use anything but Apples store. What other walk of life would you accept only having a single mandated choice? What other walk of life do you get the one and only choice and that is acceptable?
 
Why? You don’t have to use anything but Apples store. What other walk of life would you accept only having a single mandated choice? What other walk of life do you get the one and only choice and that is acceptable?
I literally explained why I don't want 3rd party app stores and why the "you don't have to use anything but Apples store" is a bad argument in the post your quoted. Did you only read the last sentence?
 
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Our consumers don't want that either," she added.

This is actually a really weak argument considering they have the exact opposite stance on app tracking which is give the customer a choice. If consumers want to be tracked they can opt in. If consumers want to side load apps they can opt in. If their customer base really has no interest in anything but using the app store then what's the problem?
These are business decisions. Apple Customers have the option to buy competitors products. They chose Apples “closed” ecosystem. Most device OS’ ecosystems are closed. Really only laptop and desktop computers are different.
 
They don’t do the same thing, and even if they did, why does that somehow vindicate Apple. I can buy my Xbox and PlayStation games from 100’s of places and I can choose numerous ways to pay for them (and I can sell them). Microsoft and Sony also pay $100M’s in advance to get some of these games developed. Despite having 100’s of places to buy, neither Xbox nor PlayStation is a privacy or security nightmare that Apple claim opening up the App Store would be.

For balance I’m no fan of the gaming console business methods either but for entirely different reasons (I’m a PC gamer), but this whole “others being terrible means it’s fine for me to be terrible“ argument is BS

and clearly everyone commenting on here is doing it on the basis of some bias.
I dont think it’s so terrible. There is a higher level of security expected with a phone than say a full on computer. You need a phone for emergencies. Your phone knows everything about you even the places youve been and financial information etc… multiple stores is multiple points fore security breech going beyond just Apple mistakes. I think the case should’ve been thrown out. I dont see how a ruling in favor of Epic wouldn’t immediately trigger lawsuits in other company’s even in other industries unless the ruling is very narrowly defined. I think there is so many pitfalls even for Epic, I’m shocked they brought the case.
 
Our consumers don't want that either

Proof? Was a survey done?

Yes, some people want to have their cake and eat it too (e.g. free Facebook with zero tracking and zero targeted ads). But in truth there's ways this could be done. Chromebooks are pretty secure, but they have a developer switch to unlock them. Even Android makes it pretty clear what you're doing when you decide to install apps from third parties.

I'm not going to argue that Epic is 100% in the right here (they're not) but let's not sugarcoat things. Apple's shareholders really like that 30/15% cut and even if Tim Cook wanted to change things, the shareholders would probably reject such an idea because potential lost revenues. (Apple's not unique in this to be fair, pretty much all public companies are at the mercy of shareholders who often have a single focus [profits]. There are many stories of the desire to maximize profits being put ahead of customer satisfaction.)
 
"Our consumers don't want that either" amm nope, I want it and think it would be for the best. Monopolies are never good period
 
Well, not, I don't have that freedom:

I bought Apps before Apple started abusing it's position. Therefore, if now I leave, I would have to buy those apps again. When I started buying those Apple, monopolistic rules for in-app purchases were not there.

Therefore, Apple managed to force me stay when the iPhone, then managed to force me pay more for the AppStore.


And well, laws are anyway stronger than contracts you know. The Appstore and smartphones market is not at all the same than what is was at the beginning. It evolved into general computing, where now, the presence on each store is a must, especially that Apple tries to kill webapps. Therefore, each platform is a complete separate market, in which law applies.

I can anyway buy a product and want the law to apply to it.


Do you also think that people have the choice with their underpaid job to go somewhere else and that it is normal to let companies underpay their employees? Violate human rights? Too much freedom in market is an utter stupidity. It is like raising a child without teaching him any rule. Most companies are like children, they need rules otherwise they will just take advantage of the situation, bully and that's it. Most adults are not better, if not even worse than children. Otherwise we wouldn't need to create so many utterly stupid laws.
I don't understand your argument. Nothing has changed since the App Store was born in 2008. Apple charged 30% for all App Store transactions since it's inception. It has now reduced it to 15% for all businesses with less than $1m annual revenue from the App Store. AFAIK IAP was an evolution of the App Store upon the request from the developers, and it is still a consistent 30%/15% for all transactions. Apple has grown to it's size today because it produces product that customer thinks it's worth their money in exchange for. I don't see Apple forcing people to give them their money. Have you? If as you said Apple is evil, and the general public sees it, they will not be sending their money Apple's way. If they still do, then I don't know what's happening. Accordingly to Apple, they are still seeing new customers every quarter, IIRC.

I'm sorry that you feel that you're stuck in the virtual Apple 'prison'. Since your resentment of Apple is so strong, it probably is prudent for you to start planning to move away from the evil Apple wall garden and start charting a course to some other more user friendly open field(s)? I'm sure you have stopped sending your money Apple's way for some time now right? It'll most definitely do wonders to your mental well-being.

There are already laws in countries all across the world to protect consumers rights. Until Apple has been indicted of violating any laws, they have done nothing wrong. If you think your country's law is insufficient to protect you as a consumer, you should write to your representative and have them look into it. Also, I'm not sure if any government is going to define any market specifically, so I'm not sure if there is a smartphone market or just a phone market, or whatever market. As long as companies operate within the boundary of the laws, there's no reason any government will need to get involved.

Besides the EPIC vs Apple case is a civil suit. EPIC broke their contract and sued Apple?! If anything, it should be Apple suing EPIC, but I don't think Apple think it's worth their time.

I'm not sure why you brought up the employment issue in this discussion here tho.
 
No matter how this turns out there are many developers who owe Epic some gratitude. The press around this case pushed Apple to reduce the App Store share to 15% for smaller developers.
 
That's the argument everyone defending Epic will say, but from a customer's point of view it isn't really a good one.

Before you know it there will be a Microsoft App Store, Adobe App Store, Google App Store, Epic Games App Store, Steam App Store and possibly even a Galaxy App Store and Google Play App Store (sounds hilarious but that's really what could become reality).

Just imagine from a customer's point of view how bad this can be:
  • Want a Google App? Get the Google App Store first
  • Want an Adobe App? Get the Adobe App Store first. Oh it requires a subscription? Time to fill in those payment details again.
  • Want a Microsoft App? Sorry bud, gotta download the Microsoft App Store first. Want to pay for a subsribtion? Fill in your payment details again.
  • Want this new cool game? It's an Epic Games App Store exclusive, gotta download that first. Want to purchase an in-game purchase? Time to fill in those payment details again.

The argument of "don't use 3rd party stores", isn't really a good argument in my opinion.

I do think the 30% cut is too much, but I do not want 3rd party app stores on my iPhone. As a customer that would ruin my user experience on an iPhone.
Yeah that's all definitely true too.
 
No matter how this turns out there are many developers who owe Epic some gratitude. The press around this case pushed Apple to reduce the App Store share to 15% for smaller developers.
Maybe it is the extraordinary events that happened in 2020 that resulted in the reduction, or maybe it's feedback from developers? We just won't know why.
 
These are business decisions. Apple Customers have the option to buy competitors products. They chose Apples “closed” ecosystem. Most device OS’ ecosystems are closed. Really only laptop and desktop computers are different.

Right? I don’t recall an instance where a product manufacturer told Walmart how to run its store. People go to Walmart from their own will, and that’s the same thing with Apple. You want to distribute your product on a platform that you haven’t created yourself? Then pay the cut.

These arguments miss one very fundamental difference. There is a very major disparity when comparing brick-and-mortar stores with online platform app stores.

To help this make sense, let's consider traditional brick-and-mortar software distribution on CD-ROM. Let's say I own Acme Software and I've written WidgetSoft for PC. Now I want to sell WidgetSoft to my customers. I package it up in a nice box and start calling around. Walmart presents me with terms I just can't agree with (high commission, whatever), so I tell Walmart that I'm not interested. But then I call up Target, Best Buy and Micro Center. They give me deals I can accept. And I also decide to open a few little retail shops of my own to sell WidgetSoft.

Here's the point. In this scenario, I can still reach any customer I want to. If a customer really wants to use WidgetSoft, even if they are generally a die-hard Walmart shopper, the only barrier for them to get a copy is to choose to buy from another store just this once. Maybe the customer really isn't a fan of Best Buy in general, but they can go there one time to get my product. In the end, the customer gets the exact same product they would have gotten had I chosen to sell it at Walmart anyway.

Now here's where mobile platforms differ, especially iOS. Let's say I now make WidgetSoft for iOS. I decide I want to start selling it to iOS users. Naturally, I can only contact one company to do that - Apple. Apple presents me with terms I can't agree with. At that point, I am shut out of the entire iOS customer base. It doesn't matter if I'd be willing to fund and manage my own distribution channels, advertising, etc. Apple users simply cannot use my software. This would be the same as "Walmart shoppers simply cannot use my software."

The fundamental difference that people seem to forget here is the difference in customer barrier. If a customer wants a product that isn't sold at Walmart, they can just go to the other store for that one product but continue shopping at Walmart for everything else. On the other hand, if a customer wants to use an app that isn't available on iOS (e.g. because Apple and the dev couldn't agree on commissions) then that customer has to 1) get a phone for a competing platform - say, Android, 2) figure out how to transfer all their data - which Apple definitely does not make easy and certainly won't help you do, 3) re-buy any apps you bought on iOS, 4) find alternatives to any apps that don't exist on Android, and 5) deal with issues with friends who can no longer use iOS features like AirDrop, iMessage and FaceTime with you. Even if you say "just get an Android phone in addition to iOS", that has its own set of headaches. Assuming one could afford two phone lines and two phones, again, Apple devices do not make sharing data to other platforms easy. Therefore the motivation to stay on the iOS platform is incredibly strong, and a business who chooses not to deal with Apple has an enormous, possibly insurmountable obstacle to overcome to reach those customers.

With respect to the security, there are ways that could be addressed. Apple could still require code-signing, and retain the ability to disable app stores that continue to release apps with security bugs that are not fixed in a timely fashion. They could take steps to ensure it is very clear to the user what they're doing when they enable another app store. They could even make an AppStoreKit that third party app stores must adhere to. I could envision some way that third party app stores are given some sort of access to Apple's app validation tools, and apps must still go through those tools somehow (maybe the third party store gets a customized version with an intermediate certificate) to check for things like private API usage etc. I'd even be OK with there being some sort of flat cost involved with getting all those tools. There's ways it could be done while still maintaining at least the best parts of iOS's security model. Let's not kid ourselves, it's about money and retaining the revenue stream.

If you take nothing from what I said, just try to remember: Comparing app stores to brick-and-mortar stores misses the fundamental difference in customer burden. A Walmart shopper going to Target to buy one item is a much, much lower barrier than an iOS user having to switch to Android, or deal with the technical skills necessary to manage data across two platforms. It's not the same.
 
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No matter how this turns out there are many developers who owe Epic some gratitude. The press around this case pushed Apple to reduce the App Store share to 15% for smaller developers.

Exactly. It's now 15% for smaller devs and the original 30% for bigger devs.

But isn't that backwards? Shouldn't you have lower fees if you sell more software? Shouldn't your fees be reduced if you're a large high-volume seller?

Look... I'm happy Apple reduced the fees for smaller devs. It puts more money in their pockets. That's great.

But it's almost like Apple is now punishing larger devs by making them have higher fees than smaller devs. Like if you're too successful you will get charged more.

I dunno... it just seems weird. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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The fundamental difference that people seem to forget here is the difference in customer barrier. If a customer wants a product that isn't sold at Walmart, they can just go to the other store for that one product but continue shopping at Walmart for everything else. On the other hand, if a customer wants to use an app that isn't available on iOS (e.g. because Apple and the dev couldn't agree on commissions) then that customer has to 1) get a phone for a competing platform - say, Android, 2) figure out how to transfer all their data - which Apple definitely does not make easy and certainly won't help you do, 3) re-buy any apps you bought on iOS, 4) find alternatives to any apps that don't exist on Android, and 5) deal with issues with friends who can no longer use iOS features like AirDrop, iMessage and FaceTime with you. Even if you say "just get an Android phone in addition to iOS", that has its own set of headaches. Assuming one could afford two phone lines and two phones, again, Apple devices do not make sharing data to other platforms easy. Therefore the motivation to stay on the iOS platform is incredibly strong, and a business who chooses not to deal with Apple has an enormous, possibly insurmountable obstacle to overcome to reach those customers.
What is the difference when a customer wants to run a piece of software in their Macs that is only available in Windows? Should the government step in and force the developers to make their software available in macOS and maybe Linux, or Amiga for that matter, to protect the consumer?

Apple built their entire customer based thru their visions and hard work. IMHO they should be rewarded for it. The reason it is an issue now is that Apple now has billions of repeat customers and everyone wants a piece of the pie but doesn't want to pay for it. If a developer wants a piece of the pie, they have to accept the conditions spelt out by Apple. This is the cost of doing business. Complaining to the government about it is like losing a school fight and asking your big brother to help pummel your opponent. Using customers as an excuse is disingenuous at best when it's all about themselves.

Apple is under no obligation to help their customer move to other platforms. On the other hand, they have all the motivation in the world to make it friction-less for customer to move to their platforms. Complaining that Apple is not helping others move away is silly. No business in this world will do this to their own business.

I keep seeing folks think it is their rights to be provided with all their wants. How I wish the world is like this.
 
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I don't see Epic winning this one and I agree with the vast majority of the comments here. I pay a premium for security and iOS, not Android and sideloaded bullcrap. App Store is so good due to carefully curated content.
 
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Exactly. It's now 15% for smaller devs and the original 30% for bigger devs.

But isn't that backwards? Shouldn't you have lower fees if you sell more software? Shouldn't your fees be reduced if you're a large high-volume seller?

Look... I'm happy Apple reduced the fees for smaller devs. It puts more money in their pockets. That's great.

But it's almost like Apple is now punishing larger devs by making them have higher fees than smaller devs. Like if you're too successful you will get charged more.

I dunno... it just seems weird. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
To put what you've said another way...

The people who earn the least in society should pay a higher % of their income as taxes. If you earn a lot you should pay a smaller % in taxes? The Republicans would love you!!

The way the Apple system works is that you pay 15% up to the first $1m and anything earnt over that you pay 30%. That gets reset on an annual basis.
 
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All applications would still be subject to iOS's strong sandboxing and security; you'd just have more choices where you can get apps.
See, that's the problem. Developers would still need to use Apple's infrastructure to sign and notarise their executables, take advantage of Apples security efforts, but don't want to pay for it. Not very fair, is it?
 
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