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Totally fair question, and I appreciate the sincerity.

I don’t think anyone’s arguing that people must use an open system. If you prefer a closed one and it works for your needs, that’s absolutely your right and I wouldn’t want that taken away from you. The issue is more about giving consumers a choice within the same platform.

The goal of recent legal and regulatory pushes isn’t to eliminate the closed experience Apple provides but to allow alternatives for those who want more control, like sideloading, alternate app stores, or different payment systems. If someone wants to stay fully within Apple’s curated experience, they still can. But if another user wants more flexibility, they should have that option too.

No one should be forced either way. The problem is that right now, Apple users only get one choice, and for a lot of us, that feels increasingly restrictive.
I do get the appeal of an open system. I’ve had plenty of experience with them: DOS, most flavours of Windows, various Linux flavours, BeOS, etc. I don’t want my laptop or desktop machines to run too closed a system, but iPhones and iPads are a different proposition. @Abazigal explained it well several posts back (#127).

I’m certain that if side-loading and alternative, less regulated app stores become common, it won't take too long for someone to convince my parents or my (tech-averse) brothers to install something dodgy, or that changes the way they expect things to work, and I'm going to have to fix it. That's what worries me about this. I like having one central repository for all apps, and the simplicity and ease of support that brings.

If Apple were to bury the ability to side-load, use alternate app stores, etc., several menus deep in settings, the internet would still be crawling with hate for Apple, and it still wouldn't stop my parents’ friends from walking them through it and loading their phones with crap that I'll have to fix.

I do think it's time for Apple to re-work their monetisation strategy for the App Store. Maybe dropping the payment system fees to be in line with those of other options, and making the developer licence a tiered App Store fee? There'd be a lot of variables to parse to figure out what would be reasonable. I don't feel it to be unreasonable for Apple to profit off the App Store, but it can be hard to be sympathetic to a company so obscenely wealthy sometimes.
 
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I’m certain that if side-loading and alternative, less regulated app stores become common, it won't take too long for someone to convince my parents or my (tech-averse) brothers to install something dodgy, or that changes the way they expect things to work, and I'm going to have to fix it. That's what worries me about this. I like having one central repository for all apps, and the simplicity and ease of support that brings.

What arguments like this miss is that the likely effect is that Apple will compete on terms and very few major things will actually go to an alternative or sideloading store due to the friction.
 
It's not the major things I'm worried about.

If Apple competes in a reasonable and aggressive way, you’re not gonna have to worry about this

That’s what all of this is about.

Actually getting Apple to compete on terms and not just have lock in of a captive, trapped, audience.

None of this would even be at this point if Apple had been charging something much more reasonable all this time or had at least pivoted to it sometime in the last decade.
 
If Apple competes in a reasonable and aggressive way, you’re not gonna have to worry about this

That’s what all of this is about.

Actually getting Apple to compete on terms and not just have lock in of a captive, trapped, audience.

None of this would even be at this point if Apple had been charging something much more reasonable all this time or had at least pivoted to it sometime in the last decade.
Until some conspiracy nut convinces gullible family members to turn off their security and install something dodgy. That is a thing I already have to deal with, and I don't want to have to deal with it on their iPhones and iPads as well.
 
Oh Apple… silly goose. This will just give more ammunition for the haters and leverage for further litigation.

We all know you have the cash to fight it, but leaving this open is only going to give others more time to pile in with Epic.

We all know the store will be opened up one way or another. Need to get ahead of this one before a ruling makes it even worse.

Why not just offer Epic a redirect app link from within the store if it’s too much strain to host it for your users?

This will be the next point before full on side loading is challenged.

Apple should just buy Epic. They claim to want to be into “games”. Seems to be an easy double win.
 
Oh this is getting good lol. I’m team Epic here. How on earth is more choice a bad thing for the consumer?
I am team Consumer. I buy my devices I should be able to install whatever the frick I want. No lockdowns. No steering. No whatever else Apple wants to do to prevent competition. The consumer is the one we should all be concerned about not billion-dollar and trillion-dollar corporations. Regulation is necessary to ensure that the consumer is protected from the greed of the top 1% like Tim Crook.
 
Not letting a company whose US developer account was removed for blatant ToS violations, and is now trying to use their Swedish account in an attempt to “ban-dodge”, it would seem.

Apple has no problem approving all other apps from Devs that had valid developer accounts, even with the payment process circumventing the App Store (Patreon, Spotify, etc.) - it’s just epic that has a banned US developer account, so it’s just epic not getting their updated app approved.
While I agree fully with you, on Epic ToS fiasco, it takes someone to challenge the bully for the bully to be beat. I believe Apple has become the BULLY in fact a he biggest bully of all. And who do I want to go down, the biggest bully and all those who are in the top 1% taking advantage of consumers for greed.
 
Now who’s maliciously complying?
You know Epic could have just filed its same lawsuit in the U.S. without the cringe propaganda campaign. They only harmed themselves by choosing to violate the Apple developer agreement like they did. Their stunt did not gain them "standing" or any legal advantage.
 
While I agree fully with you, on Epic ToS fiasco, it takes someone to challenge the bully for the bully to be beat. I believe Apple has become the BULLY in fact a he biggest bully of all. And who do I want to go down, the biggest bully and all those who are in the top 1% taking advantage of consumers for greed.

Epic challenged Apple in court. Out of 10 counts, Epic won 1/10 and Apple won 9/10. Epic appealed and the result was the same.

There’s nothing left for Epic except to try these stupid childish stunts and lying to make Apple look like they’re in the wrong. They’ve exhausted their court challenges in the US.

Taking advantage of consumers? Ridiculous. “Oh no, I have to pay $2.99 for an App. How will I ever be able to afford these prices? Apple is gouging me. I want to pay $1.99 for an App because I can’t afford the extra $1 to use my $1,000 phone.”
 
Sweeney should be tried as a traitor acting on behalf of the Chinese government to destroy Apple’s business model. The App Store is the core of Apple’s business … built over many years, the concept, platform, and all the work, R&D, coding of engineers, developers, marketers to create it - now China using the fool Sweeney are tricking idiot politician into thinking this is about consumer rights and monopolists practices … the reality is the Chinese government-funded Tencent will now create a massive App Store of their own, outside of this system, charge whatever they want for apps and the iPhone will end as we know it. Tencent will continue to buy out every popular app on the current App Store and move it to their store. Is this what anyone wants? This is the virtual version of what China has done to US based manufacturing.
 
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If Apple competes in a reasonable and aggressive way, you’re not gonna have to worry about this

That’s what all of this is about.

Actually getting Apple to compete on terms and not just have lock in of a captive, trapped, audience.

None of this would even be at this point if Apple had been charging something much more reasonable all this time or had at least pivoted to it sometime in the last decade.
Since we are on this topic, I am interested to hear more about what you feel improved competition might translate to for the end user.

It feels like we are conflating two distinct groups of people. The people complaining about Apple’s App Store practices are usually developers who resent the cut they have to pay Apple. This doesn’t that customers have a problem with how Apple runs the App Store. That’s why we didn’t really see an outpouring of support for Epic when Fortnite was booted from the App Store.

For one, I believe that users by and large don’t really dislike a walled garden approach. There is value in having at least a basic layer of vetting to ensure that bad actors are kept out. That problematic apps still make it into the App Store is no reason to do away with the practice altogether (just like nobody would argue that the presence of crime means that we should disband the police force). People still prefer having their apps all in once place where they can purchase with a trusted payment method. This also allows them to update all their apps with ease, manage their subscriptions, and readily re-install all their apps whenever they switch to a new device.

I remember when I upgraded to an M1 MBA, and had to remember what apps I had installed, and download them all again from their respective websites (since quite a number were not found in the Mac App Store). I probably had to repurchase 1 or 2 apps all over again because I lost the product key (a problem you don’t have to deal with on iOS). I could buy a new iPhone or ipad tomorrow, set it up as a new device and all my 100+ mobile apps downloading within the hour.

I am personally not a fan of dealing with multiple installers on PCs, and I don’t relish the prospect of having to get my apps from multiple different app stores if such a hypothetical future were to ever come to pass. Epic tried a stunt on Android many years ago. I don’t think anyone can, in clear conscience, say that it benefited anyone save the company itself.

Second, consumers don’t really care about a 30% they can’t see. IAPs have zero marginal cost, because the design and coding is already done and the assets have already been baked into the game. I doubt that app prices will come down in response to Apple lowering their cut. Yes, I suppose you could say that app developers are people too and you would rather see more money go to them instead of Apple. I can also argue that Apple, having aggregated the best customers in the world, has helped in growing the overall pie, and 30% is not unreasonable for its role in facilitating a greater volume of purchases. As such, I am at best indifferent to this as a consumer.

Third, it sometimes feels like developers have differing priorities from consumers (meaning we are not always on the same side), and I would rather Apple side with the consumer over the developer. Is anyone actually salivating at the prospect of say, a Facebook or Google App Store where their apps can sport even more invasive tracking outside of the purview of Apple? Spotify doesn’t stop complaining about how they feel Apple doesn’t deserve their 15% cut of subscription revenue, and they have also been slow to support new iOS features like airplay or release an app for the Apple TV. Given the predatory nature of freemium games, Apple could charge them 50% tomorrow and I wouldn’t shed a tear.

Fourth, an App Store like Epic can often afford to charge less because they are also doing less for the money. The Epic Games Store is abysmal and won’t be winning any design awards anytime soon. Maybe 30% is indeed to high (you don’t hear developers complaining about it on other platforms like the Switch and PS5), but Apple does and should deserve something, and I don’t believe that a race to the bottom in order to court developers benefits anybody.

I feel it’s telling that in this “war” between Apple and developers, nobody has asked consumers what they felt about the matter.
 
You know Epic could have just filed its same lawsuit in the U.S. without the cringe propaganda campaign. They only harmed themselves by choosing to violate the Apple developer agreement like they did. Their stunt did not gain them "standing" or any legal advantage.
Last week they accused Apple of lying or not telling the complete truth, and now they don't tell the complete truth and thus, are lying to convey those that only read the headlines.
 
We all know you have the cash to fight it, but leaving this open is only going to give others more time to pile in with Epic.
I think time is on Apple’s side. Many users are experiencing “subscription fatigue” nowadays, and Epic’s model relies fully on microtransactions. Apple is just waiting for Fortnite to die off as a phenomena and become replaced by some other popular game.

We all know the store will be opened up one way or another. Need to get ahead of this one before a ruling makes it even worse.
Probably not. It is open in EU simply because of EC mandate for alternative app marketplaces. In US there was no precedent that requires Apple to open their AppStore, and even if there might be such a precedent Apple will fight hard at appeal.

Why not just offer Epic a redirect app link from within the store if it’s too much strain to host it for your users?
AppStore is build all-around security. Apple have always touted top secure environment on their smartphones. To maintain it they need to review every app on their store, so if Epic Games tries to scam their players or for example someone spreads malicious code for iPhone thru their servers there will be a “no man’s land” situation, Apple obviously doesn’t wanna become part of it.

Apple should just buy Epic. They claim to want to be into “games”. Seems to be an easy double win.
Not worth it to be honest😄 They have nice app store with cheap prices for modern titles but thats it, while Fortnite still maintains active userbase it will start losing popularity sooner or later since new generations become interested in what is more accessible for them to play. And thats the reason why Epic wants their place on AppStore so much that they are in constant legal fights with Apple – they want their piece of cake that lures new audience into their game
 
All these apps that demand Apple lets them use their own external payment systems should, at the same time, be obligated to take subscriptions through the apple store also, right? So if Epic Games and Spotify (for example) want Apple to allow them to direct their subscribers to their own marketplace environments, they should also offer billing through Apple as normal. It would only be fair, no?
 
Time to tap in the US DOJ. It's my phone, I'll put whatever software on it that I please. This is ridiculous and it needs to end now. This whole bit about security is preposterous. If you're terrified of other app stores, don't install them, easy fix, done, you're safe.
Or you can just go buy the device that suits your needs
 
I am team Consumer. I buy my devices I should be able to install whatever the frick I want. No lockdowns. No steering. No whatever else Apple wants to do to prevent competition. The consumer is the one we should all be concerned about not billion-dollar and trillion-dollar corporations. Regulation is necessary to ensure that the consumer is protected from the greed of the top 1% like Tim Crook.
If you wanted that freedom to do that why did you buy an iPhone knowing you couldn’t. There is already many manufacturers who sell android devices. I bet you are one of those people who doesn’t actually own an iPhone but still stalk the comment section
 
I am team Consumer. I buy my devices I should be able to install whatever the frick I want. No lockdowns. No steering. No whatever else Apple wants to do to prevent competition. The consumer is the one we should all be concerned about not billion-dollar and trillion-dollar corporations. Regulation is necessary to ensure that the consumer is protected from the greed of the top 1% like Tim Crook.
Kind of silly buying an iPhone when it doesn't give you what you really want; but since you bought an iPhone regardless, that's feature is obviously not very important.
 
All these apps that demand Apple lets them use their own external payment systems should, at the same time, be obligated to take subscriptions through the apple store also, right? So if Epic Games and Spotify (for example) want Apple to allow them to direct their subscribers to their own marketplace environments, they should also offer billing through Apple as normal. It would only be fair, no?
YouTube Premium is an example of this; I'm sure there are some others. You can subscribe in both places but the App Store subscription is more expensive to cover those fees. I do think that external payment systems should be required to also offer Apple Pay.
 
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Bwcause of epic we finally got access to emulators. So I am on their sides, Apple need to allow us to use our devices the way we want to.
Or do better, the current iPad os is garbage, and I expect 19 to be the same.
No multi users, no old iOS sandbox, and no ability to sideload without asking Apple and paying for dev account.
Epic is the evil I need to get them to do better, and believe me iCloud is next.
 
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