Apple Says Trump's Tariffs Will Reduce Its Economic Contributions and Global Competitiveness

[Crzyrio]

Wow you need to go back to school and do some studying on Socioeconomic history. the US has given up so much of are trading and manufacturing to China all the way back from 1972. They have stolen intellectual property, They steal corporate and government information and have not played fair for over 2 decades. Fair trade is Fair trade not, their trade should be better than our trade. Or move to China and see how your freedom of speech works over their.

The US is a service economy now, but the amount of services provided is never taken into account.

We have engineering, marketing and business service power houses in the USA and by adding these tariffs we are devaluing these services and costing us valuable talent.

 

[Iconoclysm]

Metrics are great in virtually every faction. Keep America Great!!!

Mass shootings, opioid deaths, budget deficit, national debt, education, stagnant wages. What "faction" is great? Wake up.

 

[jonblatho]

That's a first? Maybe you don't spend much time around the military...in my experience, people hate it. https://inmilitary.com/why-saying-thank-you-for-your-service-offends-some-veterans/

I found that fascinating too. I don't know many veterans, so it's not like I have a statistically significant sample, but the ones I do know either don't feel strongly about or actively dislike being thanked for their service. I don't know any that actually appreciate it beyond acknowledging that it's a nice (if usually empty) gesture.

 

[Darth Tulhu]

Because it's where I live and work, it's where my family lives and where I want myself and them to succeed above all others. Naturally I (and everyone else, even if they won't admit it to themselves or others) want what's best for me and mine / them and theirs. I don't want other countries or people to fail, I just don't want them to succeed at my expense.

You may say I'm being selfish, and to that I say you're GD right I am. To say anything else would be disingenuous and contrary to human nature and natural selection.

You may say "but it's not a zero sum game," but it kind of is, and always will be. Equality and fairness are completely subjective social constructs, they don't exist in nature, and they'll never exist in society. There will always be haves and have nots... I'd prefer to stay a have.

We're not mere animals. Well, at least some of us aren't.

We have the ability to choose and overcome our basic nature. We can both hope and strive to do better. We have the ability to overcome these petty "me first" impulses, little by little.

I'm not naive. It won't happen overnight, it'll take a lot of work and even fighting and/or killing if necessary.

But the dream where we ALL win begins with us saying that we CAN. And then we need follow-through, determination and sheer will to make it work.

The greatest example of this in my mind is when thankfully in the 1860's there was a President that put his life where his mouth was regarding this very concept. Several followed, and all paid with their lives. But for a few years since, it seemed we were moving in the right direction.

Sadly, the US went the other way in 2016.

We can have the future Steve Roddenberry presented in Star Trek. We already have tricorders!

Seriously, I believe the recent communications revolution and leaps forward in technology will make this possible now more than ever before.

 

[Iconoclysm]

"And most of us, liberals and conservatives alike, genuinely mean it."

That does sound like a personal problem, I'll be totally honest. People expressing gratitude is certainly more appreciable than no gratitude, or worse, hostility on average all things being equal. You risked your life, the least civilians can do is say thanks. You are why we enjoy our freedoms regardless of your political views, where you were deployed / what war you were in, or even your view of me. It transcends all of that.

...You mentioned you served, so I acknowledged it. I think that's the respectable thing to do, but because you don't, I will pretend I didn't say it (just for you).

That is your prerogative, and I'm not here to change your mind.

If we can't move on, then I will assume you stating it was a trap. And I will not think the same of others, disliking it, because you are genuinely the first to tell me that.

I believe that saying thanks is great. Turning it into a shallow greeting like "sending thoughts and prayers" not only makes it seem like a hollow gesture but also makes it seem as if that's the veteran's highest contribution to the world rather than the starting point. And as the article says, also makes it seem like all of them are worthy of equal praise - and they certainly are not.

 

[thadoggfather]

I would not say that what you believe is not possible. Reality can definitely be stranger than fiction. In my experience, more often than not, reality is often way more boring and straightforward than fiction. I appreciate that you are looking out for the USA in your way, we both share a desire for the USA to prosper and continue to offer the liberty and freedom it currently does.

That's the thing: I want USA to succeed. I don't care who is steering the ship, my intentions are unchanged.

I understand disagreements. Fully.

But I cannot wrap my head around people actively wanting this president to fail all day every day from dusk til dawn, as their identity, in their own country, or blindly siding with China over anything and everything without even hearing or processing what the issue itself is, just a knee jerk reaction.

Maybe they hate their own country, or maybe they dont but thats just how it comes across to me?

In any case, I am of the view it makes us look even weaker and sillier (no matter how weak or silly you find 'orange man' himself to be) internationally to be on an unsolicited apology tour, apologize for being American when people in other countries arent *even* demanding or asking that of American tourists and that isnt even the related topic of conversation. It baffles those that look to America as a place of fascination and to a degree admiration from the perceptions they have of it in movies they are exposed to, wonder why we're so hysterical and self loathing despite the freedoms we enjoy.

I guess the freedom to be really unlikable and hysterical, is still a freedom. It's just an odd one I don't flex often. I find deprecation to be totally reprehensible and irredeemable, and not to be mistaken for some false sense of modesty and introspection.

 

[Sedulous]

Something should have been done about this when VW, Datsun, and Toyota started importing their little crap boxes into the U.S.A. without tariffs, and destroying the U.S. auto industry. At least Honda figured it out early and built the Marysville Ohio Assembly Plant. At one time, even Japanese Honda Accords were assembled in the U.S.A.

Thanks but not even talking about where things are manufactured. I am talking about the forced partnering with Chinese companies and giving away IP, unfair restrictions on market access (for example, few foreign movies allowed unless partnered with a Chinese producer), state subsidies for Chinese companies (which are always lead by a member of the Chinese communist party), lack of rule of law and bias against foreign companies (just look up some of the absurd rulings against Apple), banning of foreign companies (Google, Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, etc.), it goes on and on.

 

[thadoggfather]

I believe that saying thanks is great. Turning it into a shallow greeting like "sending thoughts and prayers" not only makes it seem like a hollow gesture but also makes it seem as if that's the veteran's highest contribution to the world rather than the starting point. And as the article says, also makes it seem like all of them are worthy of equal praise - and they certainly are not.

I have never, ever heard of people coming up to veterans and saying "thoughts and prayers" while they're still alive and back in USA to enjoy being civilians. we've gotten so severely off topic so lets just agree to disagree, again.

you dont like me or anything I believe in or express, clearly, and that's entirely your prerogative and your right as I've already stated as plainly as possible. But that being said, I'm not going to bend, just because that's how you feel. That's where I draw the line. I have more respect for myself and my convictions than that.

[doublepost=1561051959][/doublepost]

I did.

Right ... but care to offer a counterargument or is one word what we're calling compelling discourse these days?

 

[Sedulous]

Which ones would that be?

The ones the US is (not) following?

The ones that apply for the rest of the 1st world (Europe, Japan, S. Korea)?

Or the ones forced onto the have-nots?

Just read up a little on how it works for foreign businesses in China. It will shock you. I know it is easy to poke at the US but to pretend like the US market is anywhere near as corrupt and inherently unfair as China’s is either ignorance or blatant lie.

 

[scrapesleon]

Yeah right all you gonna do is raise the prices

 

[HappyIntro]

We're not mere animals. Well, at least some of us aren't.

We have the ability to choose and overcome our basic nature. We can both hope and strive to do better. We have the ability to overcome these petty "me first" impulses, little by little.

I'm not naive. It won't happen overnight, it'll take a lot of work and even fighting and/or killing if necessary.

But the dream where we ALL win begins with us saying that we CAN. And then we need follow-through, determination and sheer will to make it work.

The greatest example of this in my mind is when thankfully in the 1860's there was a President that put his life where his mouth was regarding this very concept. Several followed, and all paid with their lives. But for a few years since, it seemed we were moving in the right direction.

Sadly, the US went the other way in 2016.

We can have the future Steve Roddenberry presented in Star Trek. We already have tricorders!

Seriously, I believe the recent communications revolution and leaps forward in technology will make this possible now more than ever before.

Yes. I feel that we need to evolve away from tribalism and lumping people into groups that only separate us and creates hostility.

 

[Sedulous]

Mass shootings, opioid deaths, budget deficit, national debt, education, stagnant wages. What "faction" is great? Wake up.

Funny thing is as a % of GDP, the US is still better off than most including China... but yeah, it would be good to get the deficit lower as a matter of economic sensibility. Losing less to Chinese theft would be a good way to start.

As for the social ills of the US, it is sadly not unique and likely a pain many other nations are or will struggle with. Opioid deaths were not helped by all the fentanyl Chinese was shipping all over the world.
[doublepost=1561052742][/doublepost]

Yeah right all you gonna do is raise the prices

Yes, it is gonna be painful because this is something that should have happened long ago. The tariffs are a stick to force China to play by at least the rules it agreed to when it joined the WTO and ceased being a developing economy.

 

[Bug-Creator]

Just read up a little on how it works for foreign businesses in China.

No need, not my point....

If you think there is one set of rules that everybody (except China) follows, you are mistaken.
If you believe the USA is "playing fair" you are naive.

 

[msama]

Mass shootings, opioid deaths, budget deficit, national debt, education, stagnant wages. What "faction" is great? Wake up.

I read "the science of fear" and came across something interesting. The murder rate is actually the lowest it's ever been. It's not zero so there's always room for improvement, but if you look at the numbers it was actually the highest during the roman empire. Before guns were around. What's higher is the rate at which news spreads, influencing observation bias in our brains. Not saying it's right or wrong, just interesting.

 

[Sedulous]

In the very least, people upset about the tariffs should realize the Chinese communist party is nobody’s friend. It was thought that letting them join the WTO would open up and liberalize their economy as products and ideas from around the world entered the country. Instead all it has done is provide a totalitarian communist government the financial power to clamp down harder than ever while giving them more leverage around the world.

 

[GtrDude]

Sure....has nothing to do with Apple, and Tim Cook, just wanting to stuff more money in their pockets.

Nah...couldn't be...

 

[Sedulous]

No need, not my point....

If you think there is one set of rules that everybody (except China) follows, you are mistaken.
If you believe the USA is "playing fair" you are naive.

Ok, please enlighten me. How is the US egregiously and consistently defying WTO rules?

For example, China does not have an open market. A foreign company (yes, even a German one) must partner with a local Chinese company (who will of course steal every bit of IP possible and later produce remarkably good clones that will greatly undercut the host company... not least of which because China already imposed massive tariffs on imported products) and if the company is large, must allow a member of the Chinese Communist Party into the company to oversee things.

 

[rpat701]

H

Tim’s face makes my day at the office!

I know - how I feel about Obama.

 

[Darth Tulhu]

I read "the science of fear" and came across something interesting. The murder rate is actually the lowest it's ever been. It's not zero so there's always room for improvement, but if you look at the numbers it was actually the highest during the roman empire. Before guns were around. What's higher is the rate at which news spreads, influencing observation bias in our brains. Not saying it's right or wrong, just interesting.

Before guns (or any modern tech like say, a car) were around though, it was waaay more difficult for one person to kill many. So in my mind it's not really an apples to apples comparison.

The interesting part for me is how that modern-communication-enabled observation could also be a deterrent, not just by the subject witnessing the unpleasantness of death but the ability to educate and eradicate the backward thinking that may have led to it.

Modern comm tech has given us the opportunity to become the smartest, most logical, AND more empathetic we've ever been.

That said, you cannot turn a donkey into a horse. Some people you just can't fix. Those are the ones you FIGHT.

 

[iReality85]

Time for Tim to use some of that $200B in the bank to offset some of those loses.

Am I supposed to feel sorry or something?

 

[Yvan256]

So that's where the "Frowning Face" emoji comes from.

 

[Bug-Creator]

How is the US egregiously and consistently defying WTO rules?

There is more to trade then WTO rules or downright breaking them....

- the $ is the global reserve currency which is off course one the major reasons for your trade deficit, but also means that the US costumer can consume more than justified by his productivity (on average)

- research done elsewhere has the eerie tendency to get patented in the US

- whenever there are sanctions they are either done against countries the US does little trade with or in a way that they exclude areas that are important for the US

Plenty of other small things that can be bundled under "might makes right".

The issue with China is that it is for the 1st time an "enemy" that can punch in the same weight class and that Trump with his erratic actions made sure that other global players are rather unlikely to side with the US.

There is also the fact that US just isn't any good at manufacturing hence "Made in USA" not seen as anything positive everywhere else.

Cars are the prime example, Japan and Germany did start selling so many cars in the 70s for underpaying their workers or subsidies, no they did so cos US cars were gas-guzzling crap (and to some extent still are).

 

[szw-mapple fan]

Greedy Tim Crook, of course he's against tariffs. His one vision was to manufacture Apple products in China! He's a one trick pony bean counter. Not a visionary.

The CEO wants his company to be profitable, and Chinese manufacturing helps him do that. If they can't manufacture in China, he'll move to the next cheapest option, like India or Vietnam. There is no chance that Apple can keep their current prices or margins if they bring back manufacturing back to the U.S. People won't be buying a $2,000 or $3,000 devices when the competition is offering similar products for less than $1,000, even with Apple's strong brand. It's not being a "bean counter", it's called being fiscally responsible and remaining competitive.

 

[routine_analyst]

I love that idea, but there are two problems I can see with whats going on. The manufacturers are mostly looking at moving their production to communist govt Vietnam. Do whatever we want to do to China and the manufacturers will just go to the next race to bottom (probably authoritarian govt) country (Communist Vietnam is the current hot one). The 2nd is the entire supply chain that makes all the parts has (for the most part) been placed in China and that isn't something just Apple can move.

To effect the whole system you have to have a solution that affects the whole system, but would take a long time (say adjust all imports from countries whose labor costs are not within 15% of ours adjusting for labor & safety costs at 5% per year over 20 years so inflation doesn't go haywire and instant adjustments for currency deflators). What we have, just going after China at the moment (or barely modifying NAFTA to TAFTA) - in the end will change nothing for U.S. production. I was pretty shocked when GM just went ahead and closed those U.S. plants moving production down to Mexico for small cars despite the PR black eye they took from the Administration - they literally don't care.

That's okay. Let them move to Vietnam. The point was to cause a balance between China and the US, not to hurt Apple. If China continues to feel the pain from the lost billions, then China will change their game plan.

 

[deputy_doofy]