Apple Seeks Sanctions Against Samsung for Unlawful Use of Apple-Nokia Patent License Terms

[FirstNTenderbit]

Samsung will probably treat this as the cost of doing business and then write off the penalty on their taxes as a business loss. I don't think there is any sort of monetary sanction that will deter this type of illegal activity that Samsung has engaged in. Now product Sanction would be the better sanction but unfortunately that won't happen in this case.

I hope it more of the former than the latter. Product sanctions affect me.

 

[paul4339]

I wonder what Nokia has to say about this... it's directly affected by the loss revenue.

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[Taz Mangus]

“Good Artists Copy, Great Artists Steal”

So you trying to use a comment made by Steve Jobs out of context to justify what Samsung has done in this case?

 

[V.K.]

if the company knew the documents are for attorneys' eyes only...they were not supposed to 'distribute' it...thats common sense. but u never know...common sense makes little sense in courtroom

yes, common sense and the law are very different things. Samsung's actions were clearly unethical but I would really like to know if they were illegal. The fact that Samsung's execs rather brazenly bragged about it to Nokia would seem to suggests that they didn't fear any serious repercussions.

 

[Taz Mangus]

I hope it more of the former than the latter. Product sanctions affect me.

In this particluar instance I believe that the court could not apply product sanctions as a punishment.

 

[gnasher729]

This is not clear to me. It's pretty clear that the law firm will be liable but I'm not sure about Samsung itself. what exactly is the US law on the matter?

We don't know what exactly happened. To some degree, Samsung is responsible for anything their outside law firm does, even if it's not Samsung's fault. To what degree would be a very interesting questions.

But it seems that people inside Samsung then used the information and passed it on. I think they would be fully responsible for that.

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So you trying to use a comment made by Steve Jobs out of context to justify what Samsung has done in this case?

I think he was saying that Samsung try to be great artists but didn't quite understand what Steve Jobs (and Picasso) meant by this quote.

 

[Taz Mangus]

yes, common sense and the law are very different things. Samsung's actions were clearly unethical but I would really like to know if they were illegal. The fact that Samsung's execs rather brazenly bragged about it to Nokia would seem to suggests that they didn't fear any serious repercussions.

Seriously, what could the court impose on Samsung that would deter them from doing any such actions again?

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I think he was saying that Samsung try to be great artists but didn't quite understand what Steve Jobs (and Picasso) meant by this quote.

It is hard to know what people mean when they post.

 

[gnasher729]

In this particluar instance I believe that the court could not apply product sanctions as a punishment.

It's totally unrelated to any product. Apple wants sanctions because Samsung's lawyers interfered with the proper running of a court case by passing Apple's confidential information on to Samsung. Mostly out of principle, and so that the next time Samsung wants confidential info they can say "look what happened the last time". Don't know how much Nokia was damaged, but I bet they are not happy.

Imagine the contract between Nokia and Apple said: "Both sides will keep the details of this contract confidential or pay a fine of $100 million to the other". And now that info went indirectly from Apple to Samsung. Do you think Samsung would have to pay? Or the law firm would have to pay?

 

[stanleywkl]

Samsung: hey man, we do it all the time in Korea, we are god there and we downloaded the document (which was shared between 50 Samsung Korean staffs) from our Korea Head office - a place we rule

 

[testerdennis]

So you trying to use a comment made by Steve Jobs out of context to justify what Samsung has done in this case?

"We Steal, We Patent, We Sue "

I just love how people on this forum will defend Apple to the bitter end.
Give your friggin head a shake they are just as guilty at playing this game as anyone else.

 

[paul4339]

The Apple/Nokia agreements weren't the only docs that were submitted in trial... what about all the those other confidential agreements? Did Quinn Emmanuel send those documents to clients like Samsung as well?

Basically is QE a broker of confidential information to paying clients?

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[Taz Mangus]

It's totally unrelated to any product. Apple wants sanctions because Samsung's lawyers interfered with the proper running of a court case by passing Apple's confidential information on to Samsung. Mostly out of principle, and so that the next time Samsung wants confidential info they can say "look what happened the last time". Don't know how much Nokia was damaged, but I bet they are not happy.

Imagine the contract between Nokia and Apple said: "Both sides will keep the details of this contract confidential or pay a fine of $100 million to the other". And now that info went indirectly from Apple to Samsung. Do you think Samsung would have to pay? Or the law firm would have to pay?

Even if the court were to fine of $100 million each to the law firm and Samsung, the law firm would be the only ones that would be hit hard, Samsung on the the other hand $100 million is nothing, a drop in the bucket, a slap on the wrist. This is why I was commenting that a product sanction would be the biggest form of punishment that could hurt Samsung and maybe deter this type of activity. Of course the court could not impose such a penality.

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"We Steal, We Patent, We Sue "

I just love how people on this forum will defend Apple to the bitter end.
Give your friggin head a shake they are just as guilty at playing this game as anyone else.

I think he was saying that Samsung try to be great artists but didn't quite understand what Steve Jobs (and Picasso) meant by this quote.

gnasher729, it obivious that he did not understand the quote and it is obivious that what they were posting is what I thought when I responded to their post earlier.

 

[paul4339]

Even if the court were to fine of $100 million each to the law firm and Samsung, the law firm would be the only ones that would be hit hard, Samsung on the the other hand $100 million is nothing, a drop in the bucket, a slap on the wrist. This is why I was commenting that a product sanction would be the biggest form of punishment that could hurt Samsung and maybe deter this type of activity. Of course the court could not impose such a penality.

It'll be nice if there was a way to nullify or tear up the Samsung/Nokia agreement that was made as a result of this information... change legal teams and force a binding agreement (no negotiations) through mediation by a third party.

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[JAT]

Just tired of hearing about Apple & Samsung arguing like children.

You know, adults argue, too. And it's often much worse than children. "Like children" is a pretty useless comment. These companies are arguing like companies, suing the hell out of each other.

 

[decksnap]

There was talk of Samsung paying shills since the GS2 launch. Some people got mega buttburt at the notion, but now we know there is a high possibility that Samsung's most dedicated defenders are also on Samsung's payroll.

But don't say that too loudly, because despite it being true, your post will probably be deleted for some reason.

This is one of the biggest apple sites out there, of course they are here.

 

[Taz Mangus]

"We Steal, We Patent, We Sue "

Who said that or are you now quoting yourself.

I just love how people on this forum will defend Apple to the bitter end.

And yet you seem to be defending Samsung. How ironic.

Give your friggin head a shake they are just as guilty at playing this game as anyone else.

You have shaken your head too much if you think that Samsung is justified in their actions here.

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It'll be nice if there was a way to nullify or tear up the Samsung/Nokia agreement that was made as a result of this information... change legal teams and force a binding agreement (no negotiations) through mediation by a third party.

.

Have to wait and see what the court does next.

 

[gnasher729]

"We Steal, We Patent, We Sue "

I just love how people on this forum will defend Apple to the bitter end.
Give your friggin head a shake they are just as guilty at playing this game as anyone else.

You are talking about Samsung, right?

We Steal. From Apple, from Dyson...

We Patent.

We try to sue for patents and some EU court tells us that we could face a multi-billion fine if we don't stop...

We Pay for good reviews for our products and reviews that talk down the competitors.

We Cheat at benchmarks.

And our lawyers break the law, and we brag about it!

 

[Taz Mangus]

You are talking about Samsung, right?

We Steal. From Apple, from Dyson...

We Patent.

We try to sue for patents and some EU court tells us that we could face a multi-billion fine if we don't stop...

We Pay for good reviews for our products and reviews that talk down the competitors.

We Cheat at benchmarks.

And our lawyers break the law, and we brag about it!

Best post of the thread.

 

[gnasher729]

gnasher729, it obivious that he did not understand the quote and it is obivious that what they were posting is what I thought when I responded to their post earlier.

There's always hope, but unfortunately you seem to be right...

 

[paul4339]

“Good Artists Copy, Great Artists Steal”

Pablo Picasso?

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[sailmac]

I'm not an attorney, but I would think the blame is going to fall on Samsung's firm, not Samsung directly. And thinking through how this played out, it might have been done this way on purpose to remove Samsung from blame, but provide them with some monetary benefit in negotiations with Nokia.

Things like this don't happen by accident. I would bet that there are no innocent parties - Samsung or their attorneys.

I will be completely unsurprised if later we learn that, one way or another, Samsung provided their "outside counsel" a significant "financial inducement" to provide this information (and likely more information that what's been cited).

And that financial inducement will have been large enough to persuade outside counsel it was worth risking their careers in case they got caught. Even if they get disbarred, they'll probably have a soft landing financially. Well, the guys at the top, anyhow. Other people in the firm, lower on the totem pole, are likely to get burned from the overall outcome. Messy.

I suppose there are other firms out there who cheat for pay, and they're simply sniggering at these guys who've been exposed. I bet Samsung's outside counsel figured they'd never be caught. So often arrogance and lies go hand in hand...

For investors in companies that have also used this legal firm's services, all sorts of red flags should be popping up. This has potential to ripple beyond the Samsung/Apple arena.

 

[JAT]

Licensing executives from Samsung and Nokia held a meeting on June 4, 2013 to discuss a patent license deal between these parties. In that meeting, a Samsung exec, Dr. Seungho Ahn, "informed Nokia that the terms of the Apple-Nokia license were known to him" and according to a declaration from Nokia's Chief Intellectual Property Officer, Paul Melin, "stated that Apple had produced the Apple-Nokia license in its litigation with Samsung, and that Samsung's outside counsel had provided his team with the terms of the Apple-Nokia license". The Melin declaration furthermore says that "to prove to Nokia that he knew the confidential terms of the Apple-Nokia license, Dr. Ahn recited the terms of the license, and even went so far as to tell Nokia that 'all information leaks.'"

That is just an amazing amount of stupidity.

Bragging about breaking the law in a negotiation that probably figures into the billions?

 

[TMay]

Also if you read the filing (not the blog post) you'll note that this is also "hearsay" - a filing based on what Nokia is stating to be the truth. So that's why Apple has filed.

quotation from Fosspatents:

All of this is really, really bad, but the court, in order to determine sanctions, wants to know more. Judge Grewal does not rule out at a hypothetical, intellectual level that "Dr. Ahn’s encounter with Mr. Melin [the meeting in which Samsung told Nokia all the key terms of the Apple license] occurred very differently". But Samsung has been uncooperative so far. According to the order "Samsung has elected not to provide the court with any sworn testimony from Dr. Ahn or anyone else at the meeting" and "also has failed to supply the court with any evidence at all regarding other uses of the Apple-Nokia license, or those of the other confidential licenses". But it has acknowledged that "many dozens of individuals at Samsung and its other counsel have knowledge of confidential license terms that they had no right to access".

Samsung does itself no good by intransigence if the encounter between Dr. Ahn and Mr. Melin occurred differently than described.

Pretty damning revelations.

 

[typeadam]

On one hand - ::yawn:: - on the other, hearing about Samsung's constant defiance in one way or another is getting seriously tiring.
I always tried to remain neutral in these matters but perhaps Samsung should be hit in the wallet (and the ruling upheld) in such a way that it rattles them.
Yes, I AM an Apple fan but I also am a Samsung fan b/c they DO make brilliant products. But this is getting a bit ridiculous now...
Tho TBH, I'll still probably be riding the fence on this...

 

[testerdennis]

You are talking about Samsung, right?

We Steal. From Apple, from Dyson...

We Patent.

We try to sue for patents and some EU court tells us that we could face a multi-billion fine if we don't stop...

We Pay for good reviews for our products and reviews that talk down the competitors.

We Cheat at benchmarks.

And our lawyers break the law, and we brag about it!

Sorry Apple folk don't brag, do they.
From the lips of your hero. Wait Apple doesn't steal they are Originators.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QzJa_OU0tI
Can you people just enjoy their products for what they are, they all steal from each other. I own many Apple products and enjoy all of them for what they do.