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The Pro moniker often makes some people feel special. Therefore if anything makes their computer sounds less Pro, they would be angry :p

I always assumed the Pro moniker on Apple laptops stood for "Productivity." I can imagine some people feeling less whole and adequate if their computer moniker (of all things) didn't convey professional status.
 
My question is why are the logic boards failing? My 2017 MacBook pro had a logic board failure after 13 months. One month after my Apple care ran out. I have lost faith in Apple.

It's a computer, anything can fail. Used to work in IT support and the motherboard of a customer's Dell server (it cost more than $5000) failed twice during it's first 2 years and both times it had to be replaced. It wasn't overheating and it was connected to a UPS.
 
My advice is to put your important data in multiple copies in multiple external drives. Just don't rely on internal SSDs even if Apple has some way to recover your data. The SSD can also fail.

One user here commented that perhaps the point of not being able to recover data is for security purposes. However, if copying and backing up to multiple external drives is the only solution to obviate data loss, then the attacked can just get a hold of your backed-up stuff. Yes, encryption is still there but it would be on the original SSD as well... Perhaps this is to prevent data still stored in the RAM to be removed? Not an electrical engineer though...
 
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Last week, iFixit completed a teardown of the 2018 MacBook Pro, discovering that Apple has removed the data recovery connector from the logic board on both 13-inch and 15-inch models with the Touch Bar, suggesting that the Customer Data Migration Tool can no longer be connected.

gives me one more reason, not to buy this insane overpriced product.

if something happens to the laptop, I want to take out my SSD (DATA) bevor i give it for repair!
and I CAN WORK on my Data for the time they need to fix it.
 
The data recovery port is irrelevant when the GPU will turn the motherboard to hot lava. Last I knew you can't recover data from an SSD dipped in lava, unless Apple has come out with a special dongle for that. What a mess.
 
Whats the fuzz about? No news. No issue. No rumor.

Data and in case dataloss was and will be always a customers responsibility. You can copy your data onto an external drive, you can use time machine, carbon copycloner or even iCloud. If you need to, you can have a backup every minute even. How many times does a logic board fail without you having your important data backed up somewhere and needing to access the internal drive?


What this really comes down to is that for many other devices, should there be a catastrophic failure in the system's hardware, typically the hard drive can be easily removed and any data on it immediately recovered.

Soldering the SSD to the mainboard breaks this functionality, to the point where data that might be perfectly usable on the storage chips becomes inaccesible due to the implementation.

I will always support proper backup routines and processes, but to take responsibility for a really REALLY bad design decision away from Apple here is silly. Apple has set users up in this situation.
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Many of the replies are surprising! From the comments it seems people say:

backdoor to data on iPhone = bad, and backdoor on Mac to data = good.

you can have secure disks with proper encryption, even if it's a removable drive. These two concepts are not mutually exclusive.
 
Nobody but yourself is responsible for backups

Right. So on the multiple past occasions where I've rescued data from colleagues' dead laptops by extracting the hard drive and connecting it to another machine I was doing it wrong: I should have told them "tough luck, it was your responsibility to make backups*, go away!" You're right - its an improvement: now I can use Apple as an excuse for being unhelpful and sanctimonious. Of course, it was also their fault that they'd dropped them, poured coffee over them or left them running with the ventilation slots blocked so they cooked themselves... but somehow pointing that out never really helped to solve the problem.

(*yes, I made sure they all had external drives and Time Machine for backups... you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink).

The only way to escape this mess is to have always a security stick with you

That's an additional copy of your sensitive data on a stick for you to carry around and lose/get stolen. OK, the backup can be encrypted with a password but so could your old school removable SSD - so its goodbye to any extra security you might get from the T2 chip and "secure enclave".
 
I like that type of security.
Exactly my thoughts.
System working as intended. If Apple (or therefore someonelse) could recover encrypted data the encryption would be entirely useless...

Actually that's the main reason I'd like the Macbook with Touchbar... Not because of the Touchbar but the security it provides without affecting usability is quite well done...
 
Really? What is it for an Early-2014 11-inch MacBook Air? The SSD in mine failed, and Apple want £524.40 (parts & labour) to replace it.
That should be $297

Flat rate should always be available. You were quoted the “in store” rate which is based on individual part cost. There are some reasons you might be denied flat rate. Primary reason people get denied is if the machine is too physically damaged it won’t pass inspection. In those cases in store is the only option.
 
Right. So on the multiple past occasions where I've rescued data from colleagues' dead laptops by extracting the hard drive and connecting it to another machine I was doing it wrong: I should have told them "tough luck, it was your responsibility to make backups*, go away!

Yep or tell them to take to a repair shop. I have done system repair/data recovery for “friends” many, many times.

It normally boils down to:
1. They are too lazy to be bothered to back their systems up on any regular basis.
2. They are too cheap to take it into shop.
3. They don’t think your time is as valuable as there’s.
 
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No. They shouldn’t be peddling glued-together computers with soldered-in RAM and drives. Or such pathetically degraded keyboards that they cease to function... or just plain suck to begin with.

You ignore the opposite scenario: What happens when the soldered-in SSD goes bad in one of these POSes? Because it will... and then you just throw the computer away?

Deal with your cognitive dissonance and stop lashing out at those who stand up for better.


I'm curious if you've actually used one of the new machines. They are delightful. People like you expect Apple to do what society expects of all artists - constantly innovate and improve while staying the same. The new keyboard is amazing. I would rather Apple try new things like this keyboard Im typing on than settle for what they've already created. Mistakes will be made. There will be quality programs. I think its worth it. Apple does learn and they are willing to iterate in public.

And to your second point, again, you seem more interested in expressing outrage and calling others cognitively dissonant than actually taking a moment and asking a question like "what are the repair options for one of these computers?" You seem to be under the impression that Apple doesnt offer economical repairs for these machines. The 15" out of warranty flat rate repair cost for Mac portable in decent shape is $330 for a 15" and $297 for everything smaller. That is a good deal and covers any repair - LCD, logic board, top case etc. If the part-by-part cost is cheaper than the flat rate cost Apple will even let you choose that instead to make sure you get the best deal on the repair.
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My question is why are the logic boards failing? My 2016 MacBook pro had a logic board failure after 13 months. One month after my Apple care ran out. I was typing and heard and felt a crack. Then it was black. Dead. They were stumped as to what happened. I was told they have never seen that happen. They gave me no explanation. I have lost faith in Apple.

Computer parts fail all the time. Circuit boards fail all the time. To take one part failure and say "Ive lost faith" is lazy faith. How on earth were they supposed to know exactly what made your logic board fail? Yes it sucks and that story occurs with literally every single consumer electronic good. And I hate to be the one to tell you this but parts fail ALL THE TIME. Its why no matter what company you call you are placed on hold, because there are hundreds of people ahead of you requesting service for their products. Next time if you want to be covered in case, because its never for sure either way, buy AppleCare. Thats why it exists. Many people buy it and it never gets used; many people dont buy it and wish they had. You chose not to and luck of the draw had it that you lost. Not Apple's problem.

And to answer your question DOA rate off the production line at some point was like 5%. Parts typically fail in whats referred to as a bathtub curve, meaning that usually if they're going to fail they fail sooner than later, and ones that dont fail soon tend to last long. So the curve looks like a bathtub :) There are for sure outliers.
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Somewhere in the corporate offices of Apple there's an executive who is tasked with keeping a list of features that users would be unhappy to see removed from the company's products. Being able to extract the data from a failed MacBook Pro is almost certainly on that list. It's now been checked off, to great rejoicing at Apple Corporate. Oh, and as you might suspect there's also a list of features users hate (i.e. that pointless Touch Bar). Those are to not only to be kept, models that don't have them are slated for removal from production.

Apple's motto is no longer "Think Different." It's "Our Way or the Highway." Apple has begun to gage its success by the anger it generates among its users.
Read the knowledgable posts on this thread from people talking about security. Its eye opening.
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If you're not familiar with cryptography, removing this port might be seen as an arbitrary decision. It's not. This is the first Mac to have robust disk encryption, on par with iOS devices. As a result of this design, data is now useless when moved to any other computer. If you extracted the data with the service port, the data you'd get would be garbage. Not even your password could decrypt it. A port is no longer useful.

The longer version:

Until now, Macs just used your login password to encrypt the hard drive. That's not robust encryption, for 2 reasons: (1) almost nobody uses a login password that is sufficient for encryption (128 bits of entropy), and (2) after the data gets extracted from your hard drive, a cluster of computers can try to decrypt the data in parallel.

On iOS devices and this 2018 MBP, the encryption is robust. Every device has a hardware module ("secure enclave") with a secret key, the UID, that is ~impossible to read. Instead of just encrypting your hard drive with your login password, it uses a combination of your login password and the device's secret UID. (Your hard drive's encryption key is "entangled with" the device's UID.) The only way to decrypt the data is to have both the hardware module and the login password. That's what (1) provides more than 128 bits of entropy and (2) prevents the data from being decrypted by multiple computers in parallel (since there's only one hardware module).

This is 2018; all portable devices should be encrypted with robust security by default. If anything, customers should be upset at Apple for taking so long to modernize the Mac's disk encryption. So, yeah, you need a fully functional device to decrypt its data, and no, you can't siphon the data out using a secret service port.


Great post. I quote it here bc others should read it.

Also, just posted on the MR main page in the same vein:

Fast Chargers May Require USB-C Authentication to Work at Full Speed With 2018 iPhones

"USB-C Authentication is intended to protect against non-compliant USB chargers and to mitigate risks from maliciously embedded hardware or software in USB devices, so core to Apple, this seems to be all about extra security.

Apple is one of over 1,000 member companies of the USB Implementers Forum, so USB-compliant fast chargers are available from a wide variety of brands. Before purchasing a random fast charger from the likes of Amazon, though, it may be a good idea to check the list to see if the company is in fact a member."

#security
 
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I'm late to the party, so we have information that apple removed a way that they used to recover customer's data in the 2016 and 2017 MBPs but that solution has been removed and since apple is not commenting on either people are jumping to conclusions they have no way of doing it?

I'm not sure what's going on, but I think we only have one side of the story and its premature to start yelling the sky is falling ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Couldn't the same be said for the Apple defenders who are out in force trying to justify something which we don't yet know is certain?

easy there. unless you are doing realtime backups, which is not always possible, anybody can end up in this situation. So please don't write off concerns.
Having said that, we don't know YET if apple has some other way to recover data. Article only says the existing port has been removed.

If there is another way to access the data on the drive, does that mean all the people who are singing the praises of having no access would have to change their story?

Personally I'd rather have the encryption and not allow easy ex-filtration of my data than easy recovery.

I personally would prefer it this way and just make backups like a normal person if my data were so important.
 
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Couldn't the same be said for the Apple defenders who are out in force trying to justify something which we don't yet know is certain?

All I'm saying is I don't want to jump to conclusions, I think I've done that too much lately, so now I want to take a step back :)
 
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It is embarrassing that apple are totally clue less about professional requirements on computers. They are back where they started with the Apple ][ that was a cool toy for the rich homes.
 
Or they can just install removable SSDs... makes life much easier doesn't it?
The data is the only non-replaceable item on a computer. Also, $2000+ laptops should not be failing as they should of the highest quality grades and toughest builds.

And who wants to give their laptops away to strangers in "repair shops" for a couple of days with all their personal data and media on it? They even want the password for the filevault to work!
 
People love to whine. How hard is it to make backups for ****s sake? Apple has to engineer a port specifically so that your ass can be covered when you’re too lazy to make and maintain a backup when options like time machine exist and are so easy?

That is NOT the point. In early Macbooks, you could change RAM and HD yourself. So if you have a problem, with the internal then you can just replace it yourself, and reload from the back up.
Now that is soldered to the Logic board, and on top of that norecovery port, is a complete mess, specially considering that this suppose to be a "Pro" Macbook...
They made it more difficult to repair and forget about upgrading the RAM...

This Macbook is "Pro"....It is Pro-Apple... so they can take more money out of you.

What a shame Apple has become...
 
Sure, people love to whine. But that doesn't really change the fact that this is a move that's going to create a lot of ill will towards Apple in the long haul.

I do corporate support of both PCs and Macs and we have the CrashPlan backup system implemented to continuously back up changes made on the computers to our servers that have multiple terabytes of RAID storage. That's great, but even with all that? We have situations where users may lose some of their data. (EG. They travel a lot with their laptop and do a lot of work in places where they don't have a usable internet connection, so backups don't happen right away to our office servers. Then their drive crashes or laptop dies and they've lost that recent work.)

Home users usually have something far less sophisticated set up, like a single portable USB drive they leave hooked up as the Time Machine destination. There's a good chance they don't even take that with them when they travel. Other times, those USB external drives start failing and people don't get them replaced right away. (Those spinning drives in the USB enclosures may fail slowly, starting with some intermittent read/write errors that the user doesn't even notice initially.)

I wouldn't just write this whole thing off as users being lazy. At the very least? Apple needs to do some serious marketing to educate people about this new T2 encryption chip and the fact that it increases security with the trade-off of making data recovery essentially impossible. This B.S. of just slipping it into the new Macbook Pros silently, leaving it to techie web sites to uncover it and report the consequences of it? That's NOT how to handle it.


People love to whine. How hard is it to make backups for ****s sake? Apple has to engineer a port specifically so that your ass can be covered when you’re too lazy to make and maintain a backup when options like time machine exist and are so easy?
 
Many of the replies are surprising! From the comments it seems people say:

backdoor to data on iPhone = bad, and backdoor on Mac to data = good.

How is the recovery port a backdoor? You need to disassemble the computer to get to it. And when you do, your data is still protected because the port doesn't decrypt it.

By your logic, the ability to take apart a computer and remove the hard drive is a "back door."
 
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They are back where they started with the Apple ][ that was a cool toy for the rich homes.

Feel free to lavish much-deserved criticism on the current MBP design choices, but don't diss the Apple ][.

OK, there's a bit of fanboi revisionist history that would have you think that Apple singlehandedly invented the personal computer, but even disregarding that it was a very significant player in the first wave of proper personal computers that you could just buy, plug in and use. Compared with its immediate competitors (which it mostly beat to the market by a few months), like the Commodore PET, the TRS 80 and a few other forgotten brands, it was the professional option - the only one with internal expansion slots or any sort of pixel-addressable graphics. The other options were either cheaper kits/bare boards strictly for soldering-iron-wielding electronic hobbyists or CP/M business machines that cost a fortune and needed a video terminal or teletype...

Maybe you encountered one in the early 80s when they were somewhat past their sell-by date (Apple having bungled the Apple 3) but the only reason that they were still in use then was that they had been so popular and attracted so much third-party support back in the day (plus they could be upgraded with more RAM, better graphics, hard drives etc).
 
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Okay, 296 posts later: what's the problem? Have backups, everyone, don't blame Apple if you lose data because you choose not to backup.

Apple is not a substitute for common sense, nor should be blamed for the lack of common sense of any MacBook Pro user.
 
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There is no need for the socket, the T2 chips stores the decryption keys, so if it fails there is no way to decrypt the SSD, so the socket would be useless anyway.
 
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Last week, iFixit completed a teardown of the 2018 MacBook Pro, discovering that Apple has removed the data recovery connector from the logic board on both 13-inch and 15-inch models with the Touch Bar, suggesting that the Customer Data Migration Tool can no longer be connected.

gives me one more reason, not to buy this insane overpriced product.

if something happens to the laptop, I want to take out my SSD (DATA) bevor i give it for repair!
and I CAN WORK on my Data for the time they need to fix it.
So do the responsible thing and backup your damn data. It's really not that hard.
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There is no need for the socket, the T2 chips stores the decryption keys, so if it fails there is no way to decrypt the SSD, so the socket would be useless anyway.
Oh hush with your non-hysterical information-based nonsense. ;)
 
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