Apple Shipping Final Cut Studio 2

[Tirgaya]

Since I won't be getting the upgrade anytime soon, could someone post some screenshots of the new ProRes codec vs. DVCPro HD and Uncompressed. This could be yet another revolution from apple to the video world... or am I being to optimistic?

I've seen the footage Apple showed at NAB to demo ProRes.

It looked the same as the uncompressed footage, after 13 generations. That is to say that they took the uncompressed original, compressed it to ProRes, and then recompressed the result into ProRes 11 more times.

This is vastly superior to DVCPro HD. The closest "common" camera format is HDCAM SR. (If you call a codec which works on $100,000 cameras and $90,000 decks "common.") I can say from bitter experience that HDCAM SR is definitely NOT visually lossless.

REDCODE is supposed to deliver similar benefits, but I think it only works at 4K. Cineform, D5 HD and Avid DNxHD already deliver similar visual performance.

(Actually ProRes outperforms Cineform, D5 HD and DNxHD in PSNR but by a slim margin of 2-4dB depending on which one we compare to.)

The advantage of ProRes compared to Cineform, D5 HD and DNxHD is that ProRes seems to allow you to work at 4K resolution, whereas Cineform tops out at 2K while D5 HD and DNxHD is 1080/25p or 720/59.94p HD.

(I get the notion that ProRes works at 4K from the RED Video on the Apple FCS site.)

Is it a revolution? I don't think so, but it does evolve the state of the art very usefully. Even if it turns out to only work at 1080p, it will be nice ti have a format with better PSNR than DNxHD.

 

[chubad]

Seems strange that the full version would ship so much earlier than the upgrade. There are far more people waiting to upgrade than there are buying for the first time. The Apple Store still list's the upgrade as shipping in 2-3 weeks. The posted ship time on the Apple Store have been known to be wildly inaccurate. The ship times could change at any moment. I suspect that the upgrade will be shipping in a week. We'll see.
I can't wait for the upgrade. It looks like a fantastic improvement.

 

[pdpfilms]

Seems strange that the full version would ship so much earlier than the upgrade. There are far more people waiting to upgrade than there are buying for the first time. The Apple Store still list's the upgrade as shipping in 2-3 weeks. The posted ship time on the Apple Store have been known to be wildly inaccurate. The ship times could change at any moment. I suspect that the upgrade will be shipping in a week. We'll see.
I can't wait for the upgrade. It looks like a fantastic improvement.

Yeah, I'm stumped. I'm bummed I have to wait just because it's an upgrade...

 

[LethalWolfe]

Apple's White Paper is an interesting read. I thought it was a bit strange that the big feature that Apple touts over and over again is that its new codec will allow users to stick with slower hard drives.

If people can spend $1300 on a piece of editing software, I would also expect that they'd be able to afford good hardware. If you're working off of a new 8-core MacPro, the setup alone would come to over $7000. And MacPros come ready to configure a RAID array, just the thing the White Paper says you don't need. The White Paper seems to be a misguided sales pitch.

I'm glad Apple has improved its native codec. But I wonder whether those who purchase FCS2 are that strapped for cash or for hardware.

Apple's software, internal RAID doesn't get you very far though, and external RAIDs the size and speed to handle an uncompressed HD get really expensive, really fast. A reliable, budget 1.5 TB eSATA RAID is gonna be around 2k and that's not very much space if you are working w/uncompressed-10bit HD content. Just throwing numbers out here, but why spend $5k on storage when, using ProRes, you'd only need to spend $1,500?

Also, the ProRes (assuming it delivers) acts as a "one codec to rule them all" approach because there are so many HD formats (off the top of my head, HDCAM, HDCAM SR, DVCPro HD, HDV 1, HDV 2, XDCAM HD 18/25/35, AVCHD, AVC-Intra, RedCode,). By Apple producing a high quality codec it can help cut down on logistical headaches and it is supposed to be heavily optimized so you'll get more RT and faster renders.

Tirgaya,
I don't think ProRes goes beyond HD, but RedCode footage can generate proxy files in real time for editing. So, for example, you can shoot 4k, hook the drive up to your Mac and edit in a 720p environment, for example. The scaling from 4k to 720p happens in back background and shoot be completely transparent to the user, AFAIK.


Lethal

 

[Davowade]

W00t!

Pre-ordered so i may get my copy soon, along with 2 new mac-pro edit suites, 4 VFX stations, 8.5TB of storage and another lightworks suite.

 

[arkmannj]

Not in SLC Apple Stores

I called the nearest Apple store to me (Salt Lake City - Gateway mall)
and asked if they Had Final Cut Studio 2 in stock.

The Gentleman I talked to didn't know, but was kind enough to , then even look in the back, check an inventory list, and ask some other people there at the store about it. Unfortunatly it turns out that they do not, but they expect some next week sometime.

Not sure if that will be true of most of their stores or not; but somehow I doubt the Salt Lake City store is the highest priority.

 

[tk421]

Apple's White Paper is an interesting read. I thought it was a bit strange that the big feature that Apple touts over and over again is that its new codec will allow users to stick with slower hard drives.

If people can spend $1300 on a piece of editing software, I would also expect that they'd be able to afford good hardware. If you're working off of a new 8-core MacPro, the setup alone would come to over $7000. And MacPros come ready to configure a RAID array, just the thing the White Paper says you don't need. The White Paper seems to be a misguided sales pitch.

I'm glad Apple has improved its native codec. But I wonder whether those who purchase FCS2 are that strapped for cash or for hardware.

I completely agree with what LethalWolfe posted. In addition to that, the White Paper lists "more users on shared storage" as a reason for the codec.

Where I work, we use Avid. All the edit suites are connected to Avid Unity, which is a shared storage system. This way, one person can log or organize footage while someone else edits the same project on another system. We recently did some multi-camera stuff, shot HD. The logger syncs these cameras together while another person edits simultaneously in another room.

So you're talking about streaming three HD streams simultaneously to a computer. That's a lot of bandwidth. So we use a compressed codec so it will play real-time.

Related to this, if all the edit suites are in use and we need an additional one (for a large project, for example), we can plug in a MacBook Pro running Avid XPress and have an additional editor. The laptop can't handle the same power that a desktop can, so this only works if we use a smaller codec.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[zioxide]

Where I work, we use Avid. All the edit suites are connected to Avid Unity, which is a shared storage system. This way, one person can log or organize footage while someone else edits the same project on another system. We recently did some multi-camera stuff, shot HD. The logger syncs these cameras together while another person edits simultaneously in another room.

And that's where the new Final Cut Server will come in

 

[LethalWolfe]

And that's where the new Final Cut Server will come in

Final Cut Server has to be the most misleading name of any Apple product to date.

Final Cut Server is a cross platform asset management app (originally called Art Box and made by the Proximity Group). It's basically a database that enables you to better keep track of, and search through, all of your tapes, clips, files, graphics, images, music tracks etc.,. It does for project media management what iTunes does for personal music management.

Final Cut Server is not a shared storage hardware solution. Apple's xSan is basically their answer to Avid's Unity. I use "answer" in a pretty loose way because in my experience xSan basically is a run of the mill file server where as Unity was purpose built to work in video/film post production. Avid provides a much, much better multi-user environment and I've been hopping Apple catch up, but I'm not sure if they can w/o completely redesigning the guts of FCP from the ground up.


Lethal

 

[JesterJJZ]

YAY!

*waits for fedex*

 

[JonasLondon]

"How many people will upgrade?"

Well, I'm one more. Very excited about "Color", and the other bits and pieces. Come Leopard, I am sure we'll get a free upgrade to DVD Studio 5 (or 4.5 or whatever supports both BlueRay and HD-DVD, too, to keep those complaints away from here. Thanks to Apple running a better Upgrade-pricing policy than Adobe (at least in the UK, I am not paying 100% more than in the US for an "International English" version, sorry Adobe - will only upgrade Photoshop for now, no "suite"), I am happy to pay for these new features. Seems a really sweet deal. Hope to see it soon, but Apple said yesterday that FCS2 would probably not ship until the 31st of May.

 

[J Radical]

There seems to be a great deal of buzz around the product, I'm just wondering how it compares to AVID?

It seems that avid is defacto king of professional video editing with FCP being the "pro-sumer" or small studio option. Apple could potentially democratize the industry by releasing a competitive product at a much lower price. Or is serious editing still reserved for people with super servers?

Answers? I just curious.

 

[Monty Pavement]

Read the manuals now!

The manuals are up on Apple.com - well, most of them - can't find one for Color.

Be careful though - I made the mistake of reading them and am now slavering with anticipation!!!

 

[Digital Skunk]

I wish I could afford it.

$1300 is a lot for a college student, and the academic pricing is crap because there's no upgrades.

Just get the education one and use it. It won't get upgraded for another 2 or 3 years or so and it's not like you have to buy every version that comes out. If I was in college I would get it, it's half the price! Once you are out of college and do this stuff freelance the $1300 price tag won't matter. That is how much you will spend on your Firestore

 

[Digital Skunk]

There seems to be a great deal of buzz around the product, I'm just wondering how it compares to AVID?

It seems that avid is defacto king of professional video editing with FCP being the "pro-sumer" or small studio option. Apple could potentially democratize the industry by releasing a competitive product at a much lower price. Or is serious editing still reserved for people with super servers?

Answers? I just curious.

Somewhat but not really. Most big editing houses spent $50,000 on Avid years ago when it was running on Macs only. Once you put that much money and trust into a company you don't leave them for glits and glimmer of FCP. But the new houses that are emerging from college professionals, freelancers, and indie film makers that know that Avid is wonderful, but overkill for much of what they are doing go out and buy FCP and Premier. Premier is easier to use than FCP and offers a lot more integration with After Effects and ...

You know what... I am going to get flamed by some douchbag just for giving my opinion. I don't feel like being called an idiot today so just nevermind. FCP is a professional editor at a respectable price. Avid is wonderful and better but you have to buy the entire system... Mojo and server farm along with it. You can pick up a MacPro Adode CS3 and FCP for under $8000. That's scratching the surface Avid's true potential. Since Apple already offers FCX for $300 there is no need to go any lower than that... besides.. iMovie is below that and it is free.

 

[Digital Skunk]

Final Cut Server has to be the most misleading name of any Apple product to date.

Final Cut Server is a cross platform asset management app (originally called Art Box and made by the Proximity Group). It's basically a database that enables you to better keep track of, and search through, all of your tapes, clips, files, graphics, images, music tracks etc.,. It does for project media management what iTunes does for personal music management.

Final Cut Server is not a shared storage hardware solution. Apple's xSan is basically their answer to Avid's Unity. I use "answer" in a pretty loose way because in my experience xSan basically is a run of the mill file server where as Unity was purpose built to work in video/film post production. Avid provides a much, much better multi-user environment and I've been hopping Apple catch up, but I'm not sure if they can w/o completely redesigning the guts of FCP from the ground up.


Lethal

You are correct... it will take a fresh build for them to catch up and Apple can do it. The biggest thing that I am concerned with Apple doing that is Apple's small amount of R&D. The iPhone is taking too much right now and I am sure Apple has a few other projects they want to get off of the back burner. Redesigning their pro software from scratch will ingest a lot of resources that I just don't think Apple has, especially when they are making everything else that goes along with the software.

 

[milo]

The manuals are up on Apple.com - well, most of them - can't find one for Color.

I don't see one for Soundtrack Pro 2 either. Hopefully soon.

 

[thevofl]

Color on my 15" C2D MBP

I want to know if Color will work on my 15" Core 2 MacBookPro. The system configuration specs indicate no, because I do not have a 1680 x 1050 resolution screen. Could I use an external monitor? My MBP has the same graphics card as the 17" C2D MBP. No one seems to have any info on this.

 

[nuckinfutz]

You are correct... it will take a fresh build for them to catch up and Apple can do it. The biggest thing that I am concerned with Apple doing that is Apple's small amount of R&D. The iPhone is taking too much right now and I am sure Apple has a few other projects they want to get off of the back burner. Redesigning their pro software from scratch will ingest a lot of resources that I just don't think Apple has, especially when they are making everything else that goes along with the software.

I think you'll find that Apple is able to integrate Unity like functionality alot easier than many expect. XSAN hasn't hit 2.0 yet and Apple has some nice stuff going with Spotlight and Bonjour technology in Leopard.

 

[nebula]

I want to know if Color will work on my 15" Core 2 MacBookPro ... Could I use an external monitor?

I would say most definitely. Nobody can tell you 100% for certain, because nobody has the app yet. But I see no reason why it wouldn't work.

 

[Trishul]

Sweet!! just got an email from Apple saying my upgrade has been dispatched, and should be with me tommorow!! just for reference, i ordered the upgrade almost exactly a month ago on 16th April, and i live in the UK.

Seriously cannot wait! feels like xmas!

 

[zoetropeuk]

I ordered my upgrade a few days ago and it shipped (UK) today as well. I don't think the order date really matters

Matt

 

[Trishul]

I want to know if Color will work on my 15" Core 2 MacBookPro. The system configuration specs indicate no, because I do not have a 1680 x 1050 resolution screen. Could I use an external monitor? My MBP has the same graphics card as the 17" C2D MBP. No one seems to have any info on this.

this is pure speculation, but I would think it should work without an external monitor, but worst case, you could always hook up to an external monitor with the right specs etc.. and shut the lid and or maybe still use laptop screen as 2nd monitor, but Color should see the supported display and run. Once you hook up an external as far as the GPU is concerned, that is your monitor and the software should react accordingly.

 

[milo]

Just saw the first report of it showing up on someone's doorstep.

I'm looking forward to hearing about how it works, particularly STP2.

 

[LethalWolfe]

There seems to be a great deal of buzz around the product, I'm just wondering how it compares to AVID?

It seems that avid is defacto king of professional video editing with FCP being the "pro-sumer" or small studio option. Apple could potentially democratize the industry by releasing a competitive product at a much lower price. Or is serious editing still reserved for people with super servers?

Answers? I just curious.

Right now, in the grand scheme of things, Avid and FCP are very comparable editors. They both have pro's and con's, but they are 90% the same. And that 10% difference typically isn't worth the massive price difference which is a big reason why FCP has made so many inroads. It's so inexpensive you can't not take it for a spin.

Avid is still top dog, but much of that is because people have worked w/Avid for so long that they know what the tried and true work flows are and how to avoid known Avid pitfalls. There are many productions still using a long defunct version of Avid on OS 9 simple because they know those systems inside and out. And as Digital Skunk said may places probably spent $75k-100K (I think 50k is on the low end) a few years ago on new Avid's and are still paying them off.

If you wiped the slate clean and pretended that the current offerings from both Avid and FCP were brand new to the video/film world I don't think Avid would do very well. Not because FCP is that much better of an editor, but because the price/performance ratio is that much greater.

I think you'll find that Apple is able to integrate Unity like functionality alot easier than many expect. XSAN hasn't hit 2.0 yet and Apple has some nice stuff going with Spotlight and Bonjour technology in Leopard.

Yes, making the xSan software more like the Unity software probably isn't a big deal, but the core of the multi-user problem is on the FCP side of things. FCP is "project based" and Avid is "bin based." You can have 20 people working and saving in the same Avid project at the same time no problem (but only one instance of a specific bin can be open at a time). You can only have one person working and saving in a FCP project at a time. When new media is put on a Unity the assistant editors can update all the editors projects in the background in just a few seconds, but on FCP all the editors would have to stop what they are doing and manually import the new media themselves. FCP just isn't designed for a multi-user environment and w/how inexpensive NLEs and shared storage systems have become multi-user is becoming more common so I hope Apple is address this in a future version (even though I know it will require a major over-haul).


Lethal