Apple Signs Open Letter Opposing 'Anti-LGBTQ' State Legislation

[RichTF]

These are the bills https://www.aclu.org/legislation-affecting-lgbt-rights-across-country

Some prevent Boys who identify as girls, from competing against Girls in sports. So we don't have what we are seeing now, become the norm.

Some prevent Doctors from giving per-pubescent (ie. children) drugs that prevent adolescent hormones; thus preventing the person from naturally entering puberty. Such drugs can lead to life-long sterility, psychological, and biological disorders. We DO NOT KNOW all the future ramifications of intentionally interfering with a naturally occurring life stage (ie. adolescence). We do know that permanent sterility is a very likely scenario.

Now, a child cannot buy a home, sign a contract, get married, or enter into any legally binding arrangement - because they are a CHILD. But, they can, and are wise enough to make the decision to PERMANENTLY alter their bodies, before legal adulthood, or even entering puberty - and this is apparently offensive to people?

How about let their bodies reach maturation - then mutilate it any way you want to; when are are a legal adult, when it's entirely YOUR decision, and not when you are pressured by one parent or the other. Seems like sanity to me.

There is an actual answer to that question though. The reason why trans people often seek medical intervention to block puberty, is because puberty makes transitioning significantly more complicated and can affect the final outcome.

So rather than puberty-delaying treatments being a sign of doctors and patients being hasty and irrational, they’re quite the opposite.

Puberty-blockers allow more intensive transitioning to be delayed, giving more time for both parties to evaluate the situation.

And puberty-blockers allow future transitioning treatment to be carried out with greater chances of success.

It’s all very sensible, really. Especially when you consider the trauma that puberty frequently causes to trans people. That trauma can lead to all manner of negative outcomes, up to and including higher suicide rates. So yes, it’s unethical to ban puberty-delaying treatments. It costs lives.

 

[Hodar1]

The problem is you literally don’t understand the situation. Not one bit. No one is mutilating anyone and the fact that you say that shows you never researched the issue.

Doctors who know far more about this than you do say that in extreme cases of gender dysphoria, puberty blockers are a better solution than letting someone go through puberty and suffer more gender dysphoria.

An entire team of medical professionals plus the individual make this determination, not one person or their parents.
[automerge]1584021476[/automerge]


Read my response above. No one is mutilating anyone.

Ever notice the person - who claims that everyone else is ignorant, and that "No one is mutilating anyone." are usually the most uninformed and loudest person in the room?

For your consideration, here is an example of a parent demanding a prepubescent child have sex change operation:

Two Parents’ Legal Battle Over Whether Their 7-Year-Old Is Transgender Has Drawn Demands For A Child Services Investigation

The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services is reviewing "possible child abuse" allegations stemming from a drawn-out custody battle between Anne Georgulas and Jeffrey Younger over their child’s gender identity.

www.buzzfeednews.com

 

[GreenPixel]

The problem is you literally don’t understand the situation.

I think it's you who doesn't understand. The vast majority of gender dysphoric children essentially outgrow their dysphoria and accept their gender for what it is. So no, making life-long decisions as a child is not the wise course of action. Defending this behavior is insane. It's simply using children to push an agenda of normalizing a mental illness.
[automerge]1584022772[/automerge]

So, sex reassignment surgery is “mutilation” to you? Any other worldview you’d like to share?

Yes, modifying your body so drastically from what it naturally is, is by definition mutilation. No one is suggesting people don't have the right as adults to do so, however. But doing it to kids is criminal.

 

[laz232]

Since absolutely no facts relating the specific content of these laws, the specific legislators or parties which propose or support the laws and why, or any information about where these laws are being proposed and argued about, it's impossible to have a meaningful opinion on this story.

Perhaps MacRumors can provide more information.

In the morning
It's media clickbate. Here is part of the legislation link:

New Polling, Business Letter Highlight Opposition to Anti-LGBTQ…

Post submitted by Lucas Acosta (he/him), former Deputy Director of Communications, Politics HRC released an open letter from 40 major employers calling…

www.hrc.org

"Arizona House advanced HB 2706, a bill that would restrict transgender students from participating in sports teams that correspond with their gender identity"

If one looks at HB 2706, it could be framed that way. I you have a certain viewpoint...

Here is a bill:
https://www.azleg.gov/legtext/54leg/2R/bills/HB2706P.pdf

It contains references scientific articles. in the HB2706 bill the TL;DR is: people can't randomly decide which girls or boys sports team to join.

Caveats: My opinions, I don't care, my aunt is lesbian and I'm not american. TYFYC.

 

[jimbobb24]

What laws? Anti-LBGT laws doesn't tell us anything. Are we talking about the laws against transitioning for children? 90% of our democratic country is going to support such a simple obvious law. Or are we talking about something else?

 

[bsolar]

For your consideration, here is an example of a parent demanding a prepubescent child have sex change operation:

Everyone can demand what they want, but the answer should be based on medical consensus first and foremost. Usually these kinds of medical considerations cannot be blanket decided without taking into account the individual cases. A medical procedure might be completely unwarranted in a case and a good solution in another.

If the medical consensus is that in that case it's better not to intervene and let puberty do its thing, that should be the way to go no matter what the parents want. If the medical consensus is that it's better to intervene and e.g. delay puberty instead, no law should interfere.

 

[himanshumodi]

These are the bills https://www.aclu.org/legislation-affecting-lgbt-rights-across-country
...
Seems like sanity to me.

These are the bills https://www.aclu.org/legislation-affecting-lgbt-rights-across-country

Some prevent Boys who identify as girls, from competing against Girls in sports. So we don't have what we are seeing now, become the norm.

Some prevent Doctors from giving per-pubescent (ie. children) drugs that prevent adolescent hormones; thus preventing the person from naturally entering puberty. Such drugs can lead to life-long sterility, psychological, and biological disorders. We DO NOT KNOW all the future ramifications of intentionally interfering with a naturally occurring life stage (ie. adolescence). We do know that permanent sterility is a very likely scenario.

Now, a child cannot buy a home, sign a contract, get married, or enter into any legally binding arrangement - because they are a CHILD. But, they can, and are wise enough to make the decision to PERMANENTLY alter their bodies, before legal adulthood, or even entering puberty - and this is apparently offensive to people?

How about let their bodies reach maturation - then mutilate it any way you want to; when are are a legal adult, when it's entirely YOUR decision, and not when you are pressured by one parent or the other. Seems like sanity to me.

Thanks for the links. Well, the LGBTQ group really needs to clarify what provisions are they against. A generic letter hardly helps. I can't imagine a lot of people should have issues in bills that you mention here. I went through a few bills. I couldn't find any which prevented employment opportunities. Or access to general healthcare.

 

[1146331]

Oh look, more virtue signalling by tech companies.

I bet they won't pull out of countries that have NO human rights let alone LGBTQ rights [in some countries LGBTQ people are executed or sent to prison].

 

[AppleFan360]

These arguments crack me up and I'm sorry to say that both sides are idiots. The anti LGBTQ people worry too much about what others are doing while at the same time the LGBTQ community claim the moral high ground and inclusion while at the same time blasting everyone who doesn't agree with them. So stupid and exhausting. I hope I'm dead before the social fiber of our country completely collapses because of all this nonsense.

 

[1146331]

I think it's you who doesn't understand. The vast majority of gender dysphoric children essentially outgrow their dysphoria and accept their gender for what it is. So no, making life-long decisions as a child is not the wise course of action. Defending this behavior is insane. It's simply using children to push an agenda of normalizing a mental illness.
[automerge]1584022772[/automerge]

Yes, modifying your body so drastically from what it naturally is, is by definition mutilation. No one is suggesting people don't have the right as adults to do so, however. But doing it to kids is criminal.

This.

Children aren't mature enough to make their own life-changing decisions. It's a parents job to teach a child and if a boy is confused and thinks they are a girl, it's because of poor parenting or because the LGBTQ+ community is constantly forcing THEIR views down everybody's throats.

LGBTQ+ can do what they want to themselves, but stop trying to force your beliefs on others. The government shouldn't regulate who can marry who as long as both parties are legal adults, nor should they give one group priority of the other.

But the second you try forcing LGBTQ+ education and cause further gender "dyspharia" instead of teaching that scientifically, you are biologically male or female [except in rare circumstances], you are crossing a line. At the MOST, this is an issue that should ONLY be touched on in sex ed, or offered as an OPTIONAL senior-level high-school class that doesn't have the goal of indoctrination.

Similarly religious people need to not push their beliefs on others unless somebody inquires. I don't need a blending of religion and government.

Until you can re-sleeve, much like in Altered Carbon, you are literally a man or women no matter what you think.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

I swear, straights think more about gay people and gay sex than gay people do... y'all got something you wanna tell us?

And it's ironic that so many of the fire and brimstone antigay ministers have been caught batting for the home team.

You are right, and it's not healthy. I've heard quite a few people in my community talking about how 'gay sex must be stopped'. Um... Why? How? Don't they have better things to worry about? Many say 'the Bible says', but the Bible doesn't. The Bible doesn't say a lot of the things that irritate the 'right' are wrong. It's sad that so many of the right's 'bad things' are warped interpretations by sick people of the Bible. There is a book, 'The Bible Tells Me So', and it dis-spells a lot of the biblethumper BS.

 

[the johnmc]

Just have to say, I’m grateful to MacRumors for this precaution. Without it, you just know drive-by homophobes would be weighing in.

There are plenty here already. It's already devolved into the usual transphobic trash fire.

 

[AppleZilla]

Good. I like it when Apple does the right thing. The future is progressive, and they know it.

 

[Mr. Dee]

Thank you Apple and the many companies involved. It’s time people fighting against the rights of minorities go look for something productive to do. The hypocrisy of it all is, these same states don’t mind having Apple invest hundreds of millions to open campuses in their state, yet, they don’t realize the same laws they are trying to enact is targeting the guys whose business they are trying to attract.

 

[Rocko99991]

Yet Apple caves to governments like China who are very bad for human rights. But hey cherry pick when you care.

Making a stand like this doesn't impact Apples bottom line. Making hard moral decisions that will are what Tim Cook needs to do.

 

[chrono1081]

I think it's you who doesn't understand. The vast majority of gender dysphoric children essentially outgrow their dysphoria and accept their gender for what it is. So no, making life-long decisions as a child is not the wise course of action. Defending this behavior is insane. It's simply using children to push an agenda of normalizing a mental illness.

You need to reread what I wrote. You literally don’t understand the situation and the previous post I wrote explains it. You missed it.

 

[Darth Tulhu]

Indeed, some issues do require nuanced reflection and discussion. Unfortunately, at present, our society does not do nuance well.

For example, the matter of transgendered athletes participating in athletics against cisgender athletes poses challenges and questions of fairness that require compromises I've yet to see either side even discuss, let alone come close to finalizing to any kind of mutually respectful and compassionate conclusion.

Also, as someone with many friends and family in the LGBTQ community, I have seen it isn't really accurate to assume everyone within this broad grouping of subgroups is in lockstep on all the issues. There is much disagreement at times between people who identify with LGBTQ on the basis of sexual orientation vs. those who identify based on gender identification. Their interests do sometimes conflict. Some identify as both gay and transgender.

It is complicated. It requires nuance.

What is not complicated is that we are all human beings and we must make the effort to really listen to each other, treating each other with dignity. Nobody can instantly understand the other person's perspective. They might make assumptions, but they risk being wrong. It starts by listening to what each side feels they need and why.

At times all sides are guilty of blanking each other out. We can't go on pretending certain people don't exist or should not exist just because we don't like them. Or don't understand them. Or disagree with them. Or find them very inconvenient.

As for medical treatments for adolescents, it is concerning if we still lack all the long term safety data we need. But since I don't know what the outcomes are for early medical intervention vs. transitions made later in life, I am going to abstain from the discussion and let transgender people speak for themselves, and I will just listen.

Excellent comment. I wish more people took the time to think about this like you did.

I know I'm guilty of some of what you mention: jumping to conclusions, relying on my cultural and/or religious background, personal opinions, etc...

Listening and empathy are KEY. And yes, this is VERY complicated, because I feel there has to be a line drawn somewhere, but determining where exactly, is HARD.

I personally do not object to what anyone chooses to do, or whom to worship (or not), so long as it doesn't harm another person. And even that is complicated: i.e. LGBT marriage laws vs. abortion laws.

The government should be of the people, by the people, and for ALL the people. The moment it goes against one of us, it goes against ALL of us.

I'm SICK of all the liars and hypocrites in charge that refuse to love their neighbor, and teach others to do the same.

 

[applesith]

Making a stand like this doesn't impact Apples bottom line. Making hard moral decisions that will are what Tim Cook needs to do.

Where is Apple's moral stand for human rights outside the US? Tech companies like Apple and Google get involved in human rights in the US but then defend governments like those in China and alter their services to go along with impeding human rights. Look into LGBTQ rights in China, look how Chinese law enforcement is tackling and killing people for not wearing masks, Google goes along with censoring results to limit information and free speech there too.

 

[1146331]

Making a stand like this doesn't impact Apples bottom line. Making hard moral decisions that will are what Tim Cook needs to do.

But he won't because he only cares about money, not gays or transgenders [which from what I hear, the LGBQ community hates being placed in the same category as the T].

 

[ThisBougieLife]

The LGBT rights movement has accomplished most of its goals so what we're left with now are complicated issues of trans youth and concern about these issues are not indicative of widespread anti-LGBT sentiment. These are issues without clear "woke" solutions. While it may be possible to know you are trans at a young age and I sympathize with people who experience gender dysphoria, I do not support the transitioning of young children though hormones or surgery. These are decisions that will have to be made at a later age, either as an older teen or when they reach adulthood. I also do not support all trans athletes participating in gender-separated athletics. It will have to be on a case-by-case basis. Some may be able to participate, others may not be able to. Not everyone can participate in everything. That does not mean discrimination is occurring.

You're on to something here. When are we going to make circumcision illegal?

So true. "My body, my choice" certainly doesn't apply to men if they can have their genitalia surgically altered at birth.

 

[Stephen.R]

These are decisions that will have to be made at a later age, either as an older teen or when they reach adulthood.

You mean once the hormones produced during puberty have already started to affect their body? It's almost like those involved in it personally and professionally have spent more than 2 minutes thinking about this.

 

[rgbrock1]

Ah yes, Tim Cook's Apple virtue-signaling again. The same Tim Cook's Apple Inc. who does the vast majority of its hardware assembly in China. The same China where human rights are a joke.
[automerge]1584029694[/automerge]

Yet Apple caves to governments like China who are very bad for human rights. But hey cherry pick when you care.

It's called hypocrisy for the sake of virtue-signaling. Tim Cook is the biggest hypocrite of them all.

 

[Stephen.R]

And even that is complicated: i.e. LGBT marriage laws vs. abortion laws.

Please explain how two consenting adults getting married harms another person? Are you suggesting that someone is going to force another person to get gay married against their will?

 

[Moi Ici]

Completely agree. I’d just prefer this stuff to move on. It’s none of my business what others do in their personal lives and what I do in mine is none of their business. But what I do know is a lot of people are making decisions-at a immature age or are succumbing you peer pressure to be “cool”.

It honestly has begun to feel like orientation etc is a popularity contest and a means of wanting attention. Please stop making it that MR included. I come to read about technology. Reddit is thankfully becoming a stronger and more relevant resource that aggregates a better feed.

I’m sure I’ll ruffle a few feathers, but in what world do we live in where we constantly feel the need to bring up sexual preference and spotlight it. I don’t go to work looking for it or outside the office. Keep private matters private. Just my humble opinion.

That was not a “humble” opinion. Gay people don’t go looking to be outsiders either and yet........ I’m sure gay people would like their lives kept private too yet they are not allowed to and hence we need laws to protect them as a lot of people won‘t keep their “opionions” or fists to themselves. It can be very stressful being gay.

But I do agree that sometimes macrumours does a bit of baiting.

 

[0924487]

The basis of human society is the existence of the nucleus family, that is, mom, dad, and children. Any deviation from that will destabilize human society to some extent, but we can withstand some of that and absorb its impacts to some degree. Just like an aircraft carrier, it can take some torpedos and bombs without sinking, but there will be a point where the damage control team on the ship can no longer keep the ship operational.

That's being said, in my opinion, we should allow LGBTX to happily exist without prejudice. However, we should not openly encourage kids and teenagers to become LGBTX or to openly promote their values.