Apple Silicon Macs to Feature New Boot and Recovery Interface, New Mac Sharing Mode Replacing Target Disk Mode

[justin216]

In the keynote they literally said and showed MacOS Big Sur running a virtual machine Linux.
So yes, you will still be able to run Windows 10 no problem. You may not be able to use bootcamp(I do not know if you can or can not) but you will be able to use other Ones so there will be no problem.

That's not a guarantee. They said Linux several times, but never Windows. Linux has ARM distributions. Windows has an ARM distribution, but not made to install on just any hardware.

They weren't afraid to reference Microsoft -- they showed each major Office app after all -- but never referenced Windows on these new ARM Macs.

I do think there could be an emulation solution, ala VirtualPC from the PPC era, but if not, I'd expect personal cloud VMs to be more common if Windows is needed, where you just connect over RDP.

 

[Stephen.R]

They weren't afraid to reference Microsoft -- they showed each major Office app after all -- but never referenced Windows on these new Arm Macs.

From what we've seen so far, it seems like the Mac Business Unit at Microsoft (or whatever it's become) is more committed to Arm (via iOS, iPad OS and now macOS on Arm) than the rest of Microsoft has been, from the start of Windows 8 on Arm (Windows RT) up to today.

 

[James_C]

So, just for example, if it's say 20+ millions (or roughly every fifth active user), is it that difficult to believe? Anyways, I'm not forcing anyone to believe my data...
To summarize, let's wait a bit and see what almighty APPL and MSFT will come to Office for ARM Mac is practically ready, so why not special distro of Windows for ARM... Also somewhere above I saw the post about no public availability of Windows 10 for ARM (true, there was no downloadable iso images, thus OEMs only), but this isn't so anymore: few months ago Microsoft has suddenly made some images available. Maybe not a coincidence.

I doubt that Windows for Arm will be the solution for most people as any program that you want to run has also to be recompiled for Arm as well. I suspect you will have more luck with the Mac App being recompiled for Apple Silicon, rather than waiting for it to be released for Windows Arm.

 

[macmanHEG]

"Subtle shade" as the kids say these days. Nice.

Are you seriously suggesting that anyone who doesn't use windows on their Mac, is a "basic user"?
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Well here's a good rule of thumb:

If you come across a phone that has activation lock, just assume it's stolen.

If someone tried to sell a car without the keys or registration paperwork, no one in their right mind would treat it as anything but stolen.

I don't believe I made any accusation that anyone who doesn't use windows on mac is a basic user, what I said was that basic users wouldn't want or care about bootcamp. If your someone who is looking to run other operating systems, linux included, your probably an enthusiast or professional. The person buying a mac for basic tasks and so it works with their other apple stuff isnt going to give a crap about other operating systems.

There is a well known database of phones that are reported as lost or stolen that most networks explain to their users how to use. (which might I add I check every phone I buy) For most of the phones I did manage to get in contact with, the original owner wasn't aware of activation lock and once I gave clear instructions removed it for me there and then.

People are just not aware of the protections in place with these devices, hence why every trade in shop and website have loads of warnings to remove it before sending

Lets not forget that most of these devices are dead or very broken. Probably sent to recycling centres then sold on as job lots, its not like I am going around buying lots of working locked phones from dodgy street corners....

 

[DrBrush]

So, just for example, if it's say 20+ millions (or roughly every fifth active user), is it that difficult to believe? Anyways, I'm not forcing anyone to believe my data...
To summarize, let's wait a bit and see what almighty APPL and MSFT will come to Office for ARM Mac is practically ready, so why not special distro of Windows for ARM... Also somewhere above I saw the post about no public availability of Windows 10 for ARM (true, there was no downloadable iso images, thus OEMs only), but this isn't so anymore: few months ago Microsoft has suddenly made some images available. Maybe not a coincidence.

I think we are unusual beasts on this forum. I work alongside 150 people across a dozen companies, with the majority using a Mac. I would guess that 80% or more of those users don't even know what BootCamp is, and maybe 3 have even considered / tried to use BootCamp...

If Apple loses all of the BootCamp users completely, and increases the rest of its installed base by 5% they would probably consider that a massive gain...

But please don't assume I think that is the right decision. Personally, I think the option of BootCamp adds value to current Macs, and losing those users who need it might have longer-term repercussions as they are the users that provide advice to the 80% who don't know what BootCamp is!

 

[Stephen.R]

Office for ARM Mac is practically ready, so why not special distro of Windows for ARM

Because Office for Mac is already a thing that exists, and is somewhat popular. While their codebase probably isn't as simple as just ticking the Arm box in Xcode and hitting compile, getting Windows for Arm to run well on an Arm Mac is certainly an order of magnitude mode work, due to device drivers alone, not to mention their strategy so far has been to exclusively license it to OEMs, and I don't see Apple becoming a Windows licensee.

 

[cmaier]

So many posts, and nobody commenting on the fact that these improvements to boot sequence are the first example of new functionality enabled by Apple now controlling the entire stack including the CPU.

Not a particularly sexy example, but, then again, it’s only the first.

 

[macmanHEG]

So many posts, and nobody commenting on the fact that these improvements to boot sequence are the first example of new functionality enabled by Apple now controlling the entire stack including the CPU.

Not a particularly sexy example, but, then again, it’s only the first.

Im pretty sure they could have done this with the T2 chip in intel macs in my opinion.

 

[cmaier]

Im pretty sure they could have done this with the T2 chip in intel macs in my opinion.

Not quite all of it, no. In particular mounting the file system as an SMB share does not seem to be possible without also involving the x86, based on system diagrams I have seen.

 

[macmanHEG]

Not quite all of it, no. In particular mounting the file system as an SMB share does not seem to be possible without also involving the x86, based on system diagrams I have seen.

Might be so but with how advanced EFI/UEFI is I don't find it a stretch that they could have done all of this on current intel macs.

 

[Stephen.R]

I don't believe I made any accusation that anyone who doesn't use windows on mac is a basic user

Well, I believe you did.

I said "most users don't need Windows", and you said "yes I suppose for basic users they don't need Windows".

If your someone who is looking to run other operating systems, linux included, your probably an enthusiast or professional.

But windows running on a Mac is a very different question to Linux running, either natively or in a VM.

Every Mac I've owned (my first was an iMac G3 @ 266Mhz) could run Linux, if I chose. Linux will run on practically anything, Windows (of any use) runs on essentially one very specific thing.

There is a well known database of phones that are reported as lost or stolen that most networks explain to their users how to use.

.... I've had a mobile phone for 2 decades, across two countries, and I've never had any carrier mention anything about "a well known database of phones that are reported lost or stolen".

People are just not aware of the protections in place with these devices, hence why every trade in shop and website have loads of warnings to remove it before sending

... So if the device turns up and is activation locked, why are they sending the payment for it? Could I also send a literal brick to them, claiming it's a used iPhone, and expect to be paid?

The stupid **** I've seen businesses do to cater to their even stupider customers, when the solution is quite simple: until you follow instructions, don't expect your money/product.

Lets not forget that most of these devices are dead or very broken.

So your suggestion is that instead of having a secure system that absolutely works, and protects customer devices and privacy, they should instead either have weaker/no security, or disclose the contact details of the customer to whomever happens to have the device, because it makes it harder to make a "look ma I made 1 phone out of 10 phones" Franken-phone?

I think I'm with Apple on this one buddy.
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So many posts, and nobody commenting on the fact that these improvements to boot sequence are the first example of new functionality enabled by Apple now controlling the entire stack including the CPU.

Not a particularly sexy example, but, then again, it’s only the first.

I wonder what implications this has for stuff like NetBoot/NetInstall.

 

[macmanHEG]

Well, I believe you did.

I said "most users don't need Windows", and you said "yes I suppose for basic users they don't need Windows".


But windows running on a Mac is a very different question to Linux running, either natively or in a VM.

Every Mac I've owned (my first was an iMac G3 @ 266Mhz) could run Linux, if I chose. Linux will run on practically anything, Windows (of any use) runs on essentially one very specific thing.


.... I've had a mobile phone for 2 decades, across two countries, and I've never had any carrier mention anything about "a well known database of phones that are reported lost or stolen".


... So if the device turns up and is activation locked, why are they sending the payment for it? Could I also send a literal brick to them, claiming it's a used iPhone, and expect to be paid?

The stupid **** I've seen businesses do to cater to their even stupider customers, when the solution is quite simple: until you follow instructions, don't expect your money/product.


So your suggestion is that instead of having a secure system that absolutely works, and protects customer devices and privacy, they should instead either have weaker/no security, or disclose the contact details of the customer to whomever happens to have the device, because it makes it harder to make a "look ma I made 1 phone out of 10 phones" Franken-phone?

I think I'm with Apple on this one buddy.

Not going to get anywhere with you am I? As most have already said in this thread, most normal users don't even know about bootcamp, let alone virtualisation so basic users will not care about this change.

As for the phone database, its called a IMEI blacklist. In my country when ever you ring all networks lost or stolen is on the first menu list before you speak to anyone. Blacklist the phone and its as good as dead as it will never connect to any network worldwide.

I never said trade in places send money for locked phones? In fact some I have seen here have said they keep them and dispose of them.

Again I never said about changing or getting rid of activation lock, I think its a great idea but its flawed. Apple already have a way of masking email addresses and so it would be easy to just give a "found this device contact my owner" button. Lets put it this way, I would rather a person who found my device could contact me rather than some smug feeling that its useless to anyone.

As for making franken phones guess you would rather them in landfill? I for one prefer to recycle things and so do my customers. Guess you just want them all thrown away rather than reused?

 

[Stephen.R]

The reason several product lines changed name with the Intel shift is because they previously used "Power" in the name, which was a subtle reference to the PowerPC CPUs they used.

They explicitly changed the names to be Mac-centric, not CPU-centric. There's no reason to think those names would change now.

... For whoever disagreed with this, here's Steve explaining, when he announced the first MBP, that they changed the name because they're "done" with power, and wanted "Mac" in the name:

 

[bryce13950]

In the keynote they literally said and showed MacOS Big Sur running a virtual machine Linux.
So yes, you will still be able to run Windows 10 no problem. You may not be able to use bootcamp(I do not know if you can or can not) but you will be able to use other Ones so there will be no problem.

They did not show windows, and there is a reason why they did not. You would absolutely not be able to run real windows in parallels. Parallels uses virtualization, which directly executes code natively. Meaning that the only OS you would be able to use in parallels would be an ARM variant. Ubuntu has been compiling for ARM for many many years, so there is no debate over whether or not you would be able to run ARM Ubuntu. You would however not be able to run x86 Ubuntu in Parallels, which means that a web developer would not be able to have a environment where their VM is the exact same architecture as their live server, since 99.9% of all web servers in the world are built on intel. This is a huge problem, and Apple will need to come up with a solution for it, or they are going to loose a ton of developers as customers.

 

[4jasontv]

I think you're overestimating how many people use BootCamp, and particularly how many use it daily.

It's surprisingly hard to find any data on this. I can say that I have never actually used BootCamp, but I do run Window's apps on my mac a few times a year. There is a lot of really obscure software that was only made for windows and I see a lot of people using wine to run it.

My understanding was that wine requires intel hardware because it's not emulating (hence the name).

I don't know about the tens of millions of people, but I suspect their is a sizable population of people who run some sort of non-mac software at least once per year.

 

[cmaier]

In the keynote they literally said and showed MacOS Big Sur running a virtual machine Linux.
So yes, you will still be able to run Windows 10 no problem. You may not be able to use bootcamp(I do not know if you can or can not) but you will be able to use other Ones so there will be no problem.

It was Arm Linux, so that means nothing about x86 windows 10 (which is the windows people want to run).

Apple has been very clear in the developer documentation that bootcamp is gone and that virtualization can not be rosetta’d.

 

[Stephen.R]

Blacklist the phone and its as good as dead as it will never connect to any network worldwide.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't really consider "wont connect to a cell network, but works just fine and ****ing dandy on wifi" is a very loose definition of "as good as dead", compared to "won't go past an Activate iPhone screen".

Regardless, I don't ever recall having ever heard that option, the few times I've had to actually call in.

I never said trade in places send money for locked phones? In fact some I have seen here have said they keep them and dispose of them.

Then I really don't understand your problem. If the phones you acquire through entirely legal means are not activation locked, what's your problem?

As for making franken phones guess you would rather them in landfill?

Not at all. How about actually recycling them: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/04/apple-expands-global-recycling-programs/

 

[Somian]

I feel like this Mac sharing mode is not a proper replacement for target disk mode.
Ive been using target disk mode to boot a Mac from another Macs disk and also fix another disks file system problems via „remote“ diagnostics, both of which probably won’t work since the new mode seems to be more high-Level.

 

[Seppentoni]

I don't understand this whole chip thing. I want to buy a Macbook Pro. Should I wait for ARM instead of intel?
I guess adobe is the last to transition. Or do apps work on both systems regardless 🤷‍♂️

 

[cmaier]

I don't understand this whole chip thing. I want to buy a Macbook Pro. Should I wait for ARM instead of intel?
I guess adobe is the last to transition. Or do apps work on both systems regardless 🤷‍♂️

Apps will work either way (due to Rosetta), though apps meant just for arm will run faster.

Adobe will be ready to go early on. Given the subscription model and the fact that some adobe stuff was already Demo’d, and apple is working with them, I wouldn’t worry about them. (Other than i hope they don’t take this opportunity to ditch Lightroom classic)

 

[jason.siegel]

Any news on whether there will be a Target Display Mode for iMacs?

 

[macmanHEG]

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't really consider "wont connect to a cell network, but works just fine and ****ing dandy on wifi" is a very loose definition of "as good as dead", compared to "won't go past an Activate iPhone screen".

Regardless, I don't ever recall having ever heard that option, the few times I've had to actually call in.


Then I really don't understand your problem. If the phones you acquire through entirely legal means are not activation locked, what's your problem?


Not at all. How about actually recycling them: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/04/apple-expands-global-recycling-programs/

Well as I said where I am from a blacklisted phone is as good as dead because no one will buy one and if the phones I was buying were genuinely stolen they would be on that list.

Again your obviously not reading because I have said a large amount of the DEAD phones I do get are icloud locked, doesn't matter to me as long as there not on the stolen database as I have already said, however If they made the changes I have suggested I could email every owner and be 100% sure they are not stolen or lost. Why can you not see that this is a win win? Lost phone can email the owner and get it back to them, stolen? Can report the seller and contact the police. The current system needs more education because most people I have spoken to know nothing about it.

Sure apple have a recycle program and I am glad they do. But even so its more consumer friendly if there are multiple methods and options, especially for people who might not be able to buy genuine apple referbs or new.

We have derailed this thread enough here. Im going to assume from now on that your just trolling or incapable of seeing anything from anyone else's perspective.
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Any news on whether there will be a Target Display Mode for iMacs?

I doubt they will bring it back, I can't see anything that would be different from intel that would suddenly let them.

 

[theroaringbadger]

I’m no dev. But they did mention docker, I know visual studio is on the Mac and there are also many growing cloud solutions and RDP. Is that not enough? Plus this is Apple do you really think they aren’t already working with Microsoft and virtualization companies to figure this out? Have a little faith. They already got office and adobe CC.

 

[Stephen.R]

Im going to assume from now on that your just trolling or incapable of seeing anything from anyone else's perspective.

Assuming a troll is the new Godwin fyi.

But likewise, I'll just assume you can't see the other side, because of course everyone must want someone who stole their phone to know their email address too. It's not like account hacking, phishing or spam are things that exist.
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Have a little faith.

As in the every day context, faith alone can't overcome fundamental facts.
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My understanding was that wine requires intel hardware because it's not emulating (hence the name).

Yes, Wine is a software layer that essentially provides (some of) the Windows APIs, so that a win32 x86 binary can run on a non-win32 x86 OS (e.g. linux or macOS).

I used it a few times to let my (then gf, now wife) play some ancient windows games on the hand-me-down MBP (my old one) she used for a while. I mean it was better than nothing, but I probably wouldn't want to rely on it for anything serious.

 

[theluggage]

If I had to guess, there won't be a "Boot Camp Assistant" anymore. Microsoft doesn't make Windows 10 for ARM64 generally available. It has to be specially licensed for OEMs.

That's the real reason that "Boot Camp" could be going away - it's not just about the CPU, it's about the architecture of the whole system - and Intel Macs are basically industry standard PCs running UEFI firmware - the very first Intel Macs lacked the UEFI BIOS compatibility firmware module, but hackers were able to fix that by installing a generic version before Boot Camp appeared. I could install Windows XP or x86 Linux distros on my Mac Pro 1.1's "bare metal" by feeding it an unformatted HD and booting from a regular XP or Linux installation CD or stick. Then it was just a case of hunting down Windows drivers for sound, HD controller etc. Boot Camp was just a click'n'drool helper tool to help with partitioning hard drives, downloading drivers and smoothing out minor incompatibilities between various incarnations of Mac and the Windows installer - all of which could be done manually if you had nothing better to do.

With ARM Mac we don't yet know what hardware/firmware architecture they're going to use, or whether the firmware will 'emulate' standard disc controllers etc. for functions that are handled by the SoC. There are emerging standards set by ARM and the developers of ARM server hardware which Apple may or may not follow, but unless/until there are compatible distros of ARM Windows or ARM Linux available, bootcamp is not going to be much use.

Hypervisors like Parellels and MacOS's built-in Hypervisor Kit simulate "standard" hardware as part of their job anyway - so they'll probably run off-the-shelf ARM Linux as well as ARM Windows if/when MS make it available.

Dual-booting is a pretty inefficient way of doing things anyway when virtualization is so much more flexible (no more disc partitions, or needing to read APFS partitions from Windows, NTFS from MacOS etc., snapshots etc. - developers use virtualisation for testing even when they're using PC hardware because things like snapshots are so darned useful)

I use Mac’s for 95% of my work. But I have some trading software that only works on windows and I don’t want to buy a windows machine for that little ocasional use.

That is the sort of thing that would probably work usably under x86 emulation. It's also the sort of thing that will be increasingly moving to cloud-hosted web apps over the coming years (regardless of what Apple do). Remember - Apple have basically said that they're releasing more Intel Macs this year, that it will be 2 years for all Mac hardware to be ARM-based - so it's not a problem that you need to solve tomorrow.

In the keynote they literally said and showed MacOS Big Sur running a virtual machine Linux.

...which was probably an ARM Linux distro with Parallels making it think it was running on a Raspberry Pi or an ARM server box of some description.

My guess is that:

(a) MS will find a way of running ARM Windows on a Mac, but probably via virtualisation with some sort of Parallels-or-VMWare+Windows bundle. Remember - PCs overall may outnumber Macs 10-1, but the Mac is still among the largest-selling single ranges of personal computer, and if ARM Macs are even a modest success they will quickly become MS' biggest market for ARM Windows...

(b) Someone like Parallels will offer an "x86 Windows on ARM" tool that is basically a Remote Desktop client hooked up to an x86 Windows instance somewhere out in cloud-land, with enough bells and whistles to make it a better proposition than "rolling your own".

The inescapable problem is going to be people running "high performance" creative or scientific software under Windows that actually demands Window running on bare metal. Frankly, though, I can't understand why someone would want to do that when it will work better on PC hardware that gives you far more bangs-per-buck than current Mac offerings. But then I'm an old fart for whom carrying a Dell XPS, ChromeBook and an Air-sized ARM MacBook Pro would still be lighter than a PowerBook G3....