Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
If you do not need Intel compatibility, ARM-based processors would probably be the best choice for laptops, but they are not likely at the point of replacing the Mac Pro with ARM-based processors.

ARM's main advantage is in relatively low power situations. At higher wattages, x86 offers a better return on power (or at least, that was the impression I got the last time I read up on this).

x86 excels in situations where we're afforded more headroom in clockspeeds and power. I can see us heading towards a situation where the low-cost Macbook/Macbook Air are running on ARM, while the MBP, iMac, Mac Pro, and iMac Pro have both the low power ARM chips and the dedicated Intel x86 chips.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RandomDSdevel
I agree with all of this. I've been a Mac user since about 1992. I've been distraught the past couple years over the idea of having to replace my MacBook Pro with the current crap products. After going to a laptop repair shop for a repair issue on my current 2011 MacBook Pro and expressing my concerns there, the technician told me there are still a lot of good refurbished MacBook Pros from that era available.

There is a good chance I will take that route when I do finally upgrade...a better product for significantly less money, and a lost sale for Apple.

They will lose that sale and eat the development cost of the OS for a few more years. That's brilliant business there.
 
So then why should your simple needs and simple processors also be the only choice for professionals that are tied to the Mac?

They wouldn't. Apple would build desktop level processors for their laptops and desktops, that have the power that professionals need. All they need is the apps, which is where Marzipan comes in. Would some legacy apps not be supported? Most likely, but that doesn't mean a developer can't create something similar for this new platform.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RandomDSdevel
They wouldn't. Apple would build desktop level processors for their laptops and desktops, that have the power that professionals need. All they need is the apps, which is where Marzipan comes in. Would some legacy apps not be supported? Most likely, but that doesn't mean a developer can't create something similar for this new platform.

Apple's in no position to make processors as fast as Intel's. Nevermind that, AMD spanks them hard with Threadripper. Why do you entertain this unrealistic idea?
 
Actually, they use AMD GPUs because AMD is willing to Apple to use them just for the hardware. Apple has full control over programming the driver stack for Metal etc. nVidia requires you to go through their driver stack etc.
The secondary issue was the last time Apple used nVidia in laptops, the chips did not live up to Apple's expectation with regards to reliability -- and they never came to an amicable agreement on nVidia reimbursing Apple for that issue.
Sorry, no on the AMD part. Although I agree with the NVidia and reliability part.

As I said:

https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/16/macbook-pro-why-amd-gpu/

...and then there's this, too...

https://www.quora.com/Why-exactly-does-Apple-use-AMD-graphic-cards-instead-of-NVIDIA
 
My opinion is Apple's long range business goal is to get rid of the Mac lineup with the exception of the Mac Pro, MacBook Pro and iMac Pro. I think the next "major" update is going to be with the Mac Pro, so they can calm the professionals who want a computer that is "modular" (Well at least what Apple considers modular). I think it's correct to think that Apple is going to kick Intel to the curb in 2020 or little bit later in favor of their own processors. While, I believe Apple won't merge iOS and OS X, I do think they want to have the computer's components to match better than it currently is. All I know is people are complaining about the prices now, I think if Apple gets their way the prices are going to be even higher.
 
Apple's in no position to make processors as fast as Intel's. Nevermind that, AMD spanks them hard with Threadripper. Why do you entertain this unrealistic idea?

Because Apple wants to have more control over their products and this is a way to do so. You may not like it, but it’s likely inevitable. I know I know, tough to accept that toys can actually get work done.
 
Sure. I take issue with Apple today vs. 10 years ago (too much focus on fashion instead of function to the point that things are less intuitive, durable, and serviceable/expandable vs. 10 years ago), so I'm just trying to make light of: as they let their computer offerings go stale and less fun to use & own, isn't that soon going to affect their ability to focus hard on design & development of important things like animojis and making something less thick and less serviceable and less expandable and less intuitive than last year's offering. After all, what’s the likelihood they’ve moved their hard-core engineering work to iPads?
I don't know about you; but I seriously wouldn't call a laptop (2018 MBP) that uses a CPU that is the most 6 core i9 recent generation, configurable up to 32 GB of RAM and 4 TB SSD (BTW, fastest in any laptop!), with 80 Gb/s of raw I/O bandwidth (the most in any laptop! And the most user-configurable and flexible I/O in any laptop, too!), with a TrackPad the size of an iPhone 5(!!!), plus a unique, Application-Configurable Touch Display that offers controls that DON'T compete with screen real-estate(!!!) to be a product with a "focus on fashion instead of function."

And BTW, soldered-in RAM and SSD makes a product MORE durable, not less.
 
I feel that it's a bit of both after reading through and hearing arguments from both sides. The way I see it - Apple builds machines a certain way (thin, light, different cooling ability per machine, not power hungry), so they need to adhere to that when choosing the proper Intel processor. Then they need to consider profitability, manufacturing, marketing, release schedules, OS updates, etc. and have to weigh whether or not it is all worth it just to keep a semi regular schedule of updates to their Mac line. I suppose Apple takes it all into consideration and feels that it just may not be worth it sometimes. It's unfortunate for those that need it, but it's ultimately what makes Apple so successful at the same time. This is mainly why I think developing their own chips could free them from it's reliance on Intel and create their own path and do things they want to do. Balancing that with still catering to the Pro market will be key in the coming years.
Is this Apple's or Intel's decision? The reality is, as you said, Apple builds machines a certain way based on what Apple wants their product offering to look like. Apple makes the decisions for their products, not Intel. If Apple wanted to they could design their products to work better with Intel's product offerings. They choose not to.

As for ARM while it may give Apple complete control of the Mac I'm not convinced they'll be able to do any better than what Intel is able to offer. Likewise I'm not convinced Apple cares enough about the Mac to go through such effort.
[doublepost=1533158715][/doublepost]
Because Apple wants to have more control over their products and this is a way to do so. You may not like it, but it’s likely inevitable. I know I know, tough to accept that toys can actually get work done.
What, other than your opinion, do you base this likely inevitability on?
[doublepost=1533158760][/doublepost]
I don't know about you; but I seriously wouldn't call a laptop (2018 MBP) that uses a CPU that is the most 6 core i9 recent generation, configurable up to 32 GB of RAM and 4 TB SSD (BTW, fastest in any laptop!), with 80 Gb/s of raw I/O bandwidth (the most in any laptop! And the most user-configurable and flexible I/O in any laptop, too!), with a TrackPad the size of an iPhone 5(!!!), plus a unique, Application-Configurable Touch Display that offers controls that DON'T compete with screen real-estate(!!!) to be a product with a "focus on fashion instead of function."

And BTW, soldered-in RAM and SSD makes a product MORE durable, not less.
Unless it can't utilize all that goodness because of fashion.

BTW, I'm still willing to try and help you work through your Windows issues if you can expand upon what the problems are so I can understand them.
 
Unless those Mac updates, that are linked in the last paragraph, happen in September they will not make Q3 numbers either. October is Q4. Will be an interesting few months here.

Sorry if a dupe.

Off on the quarter numbers. Apple's fiscal year starts Oct 1.

http://investor.apple.com/faq.cfm

What is Apple's fiscal year?
Apple’s fiscal year 2018 runs from October 1, 2017 through September 29, 2018.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RandomDSdevel
Because Apple wants to have more control over their products and this is a way to do so. You may not like it, but it’s likely inevitable. I know I know, tough to accept that toys can actually get work done.

So you're just going to ignore the fact that it would be a nightmare with slow processors for content creators?
 
Is this Apple's or Intel's decision? The reality is, as you said, Apple builds machines a certain way based on what Apple wants their product offering to look like. Apple makes the decisions for their products, not Intel. If Apple wanted to they could design their products to work better with Intel's product offerings. They choose not to.

As for ARM while it may give Apple complete control of the Mac I'm not convinced they'll be able to do any better than what Intel is able to offer. Likewise I'm not convinced Apple cares enough about the Mac to go through such effort.
[doublepost=1533158715][/doublepost]
What, other than your opinion, do you base this likely inevitability on?
[doublepost=1533158760][/doublepost]
Unless it can't utilize all that goodness because of fashion.

BTW, I'm still willing to try and help you work through your Windows issues if you can expand upon what the problems are so I can understand them.

Sure, Apple could abandon some of their design philosophies, rework the designs more often to fit certain chips, etc., but they choose not to do so. I still feel Intel is somewhat at fault when they are supppsed to have 10nm chips this year and then they are delayed until 2019. That example is one reason it’s best for Apple to move on. I base that inevitability on history, Apple’s stance on control, the success of the iPhone and iPad, the success of their A series chip design, and their move to unify their app platform between macOS and iOS. Ultimately I feel they want to control every critical piece of their machines. And yes, this is all opinion, just like everyone else on here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RandomDSdevel
I agree with all of this. I've been a Mac user since about 1992. I've been distraught the past couple years over the idea of having to replace my MacBook Pro with the current crap products. After going to a laptop repair shop for a repair issue on my current 2011 MacBook Pro and expressing my concerns there, the technician told me there are still a lot of good refurbished MacBook Pros from that era available.

There is a good chance I will take that route when I do finally upgrade...a better product for significantly less money, and a lost sale for Apple.
Indeed I have a collection of Macs. The oldest being a PowerMac G4 the youngest being a 2015 21.5" 4k iMac. But my main production machine is neither of those it is a mid 2011 21.5" iMac.
In the case of Macs nowadays old is better.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RandomDSdevel
Mac Mini and Pro users aren't asking for innovation. Many would be happy with updates to existing products with later technology.
[doublepost=1533151100][/doublepost]
I'm using it right now which is why I asked you to expand upon what you mean by "untrusted, unworthy, INCORRECT" user. Why? Because I'm not seeing it. But I'm willing to listen to reasonable examples. So, now that you've wrapped up work can you please expand upon what you mean?
Ok, here's a few off the top of my head:

Untrusted/Unworthy: As I said, I am a Domain Admin. Yet, I sometimes STILL get challenged with "You don't have Permissions to {x}". Then, in derogation of all that, it offers to let me "Click" to Access/Do {x}. As a Domain Admin, I should be allowed to do ANYTHING without challenge. Yes, macOS sometimes challenges an Admin User, but it doesn't do it needlessly by simply offering Permission with a simple "Click". You have to enter a Password. Now THAT makes sense. The Windows thing is just a damned USELESS annoyance!

Untrusted/Unworthy: Sometimes, when I go to Open a "Mapped Drive" (even one I have been "in" several times that same day!), I will get a "Access is denied" Error. Sometimes it will work if I try again; but often not. Again, remember I am a Domain Admin. NOTHING should be "Access Denied"! That particular annoyance is particularly stupid and frustrating! MacOS doesn't have that bug.

Unworthy: It's sort of a small thing, but Windows calls their UI-scripts "Wizards". Apple calls them "Assistants". In the Windows parlance, the COMPUTER is showing the lowly Luser how to do something they are obviously too stupid to do on their own. In the Apple version, the Computer is the GRUNT, ASSISTING the User with some menial task. It just annoys me everytime I see a Windows "Wizard".

Incorrect (In general): Windows Error messages are OFTEN worded so that the USER is made to feel "to blame". For example, if Windows crashes, when you Reboot the next time, the first thing you see is the "Windows was not shut down properly." I can't remember the equivalent text in macOS off the top of my head; but it is much less "blame-y"...

There are more; but I can't remember them without encountering them again, sorry.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RandomDSdevel
I can take boring as long as it's capable of meeting my needs. It isn't.

Fair point.

What do employees in the Apple Store do when someone comes in and really wants to buy the Air?

I mean, how could you live with yourself making a sale of a computer that felt outdated in 2015 let alone now?
 
  • Like
Reactions: RandomDSdevel
My guess is they'll want to upgrade them more frequently and drop prices a bit. There is rumored to be a new MacBook with a price drop in the fall. They understand that the number of traditional computer users are dwindling though, that's why more focus has been on the iPad Pro, also getting a major update in the fall. Apple will cover both your points.


"My guess is they'll want to upgrade them more frequently and drop prices a bit."

Do you seriously think they will? The rumored Macbook with price drop will replace the Air as well? I have no doubt it will drop magsafe, be USB-C only, and have the butterfly keyboard. All 3 of which I detest on my 2017 15inch Macbook Pro. If they do that and get rid of the Air, IMHO all good Mac laptops will be gone.
 
“They need to?”

Why? Isn’t the goal of a company to make money? They seem to be having no trouble with that.

Yes they need to. Why? because in order to make money you need actual customers, customers they are slowly losing.

So they indeed "need to change".
 
  • Like
Reactions: RandomDSdevel
You're kidding, right?

I use Windows every single day at work. It is pretty awful, and makes me constantly feel like I am an untrusted, unworthy, INCORRECT User (and, BTW, I am a Domain Admin). MacOS NEVER makes me feel like that. Never.

????? I use a ThinkPad T580 as my main work computer. I also have a 15inch Macbook Pro (2107). My ThinkPad is the perfect computer for me. Speed, ports (USB-A, HDMI, Ethernet) and a freeking amazing keyboard. Windows 10 is fine. It is easily tamed. We use LTSB version which is a no BS build with no BS installed. I am not sure why people focus so much on the OS. If it gets in your way then it is bad. It is the apps that matter. Windows has everything I need. As a network engineer Visio is a must have. I have tried to use Omni Graffle but it just does not work in a world where everyone wants Visio diagrams.
 
People demand yearly mac refreshes akin to the iPhone, but don't understand there's no groundbreaking hardware advances to justify it. If people want to shell out 3K every year for the sake of a new laptop shell, maybe apple should oblige them.
This is a fake argument. Fake because your premise is that we're asking for "yearly refreshes" and we need "groundbreaking hardware advances". That's silly and it's fake. None of what I'm suggesting is yearly or "groundbreaking" in any sense of the word.

Just look at my sig for some suggestions. Give us Nvidia GPUs again so we can do CUDA based rendering. Give us 32 or 64 GB RAM again. Make a Retina 17" screen. Put some real damned SSDs in there, or let us add them.

There are TONS of things that can be done, and very little of this is "groundbreaking".
 
I know I'm the minority here but I may very well never buy a Mac ever again.
That is your choice as it is everyone else's here on this forum. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, I mean that everyone comes to a crossroads at which they say "enough is enough". Or you say, I love this platform, but I cannot stay in it because of "X". Or you say, "I can stay in it, but not for much longer." What doesn't seem to do anyone any good around here is the amount of entitlement many users think they have because they chose to support Apple in the past, which means that Apple created something they liked at one point, but do not now, and therefore, because they plopped down their money, they deserve better.

I stay because I love macOS, certainly not because of Apple's hardware engineering or their incremental prices increases to keep Wall Street shareholders happy from quarter to quarter. However, I would not expect anything less from a Duke graduate (or Harvard, or Wharton, et al.). I sincerely believe Steve's views kept both Jony Ive and Tim Cook balanced and I believe they balanced him out to an extent, however, I have no concrete research to back that up. Without Steve, and certainly no one can replace him or approach that level of influence with Ive and Cook, they have no one holding their reins. Profits are up, sales are up, cool, edgy products are being released. But I cannot help but think respect is slowly being replaced by a bit of contempt and apathy towards the customer that purchases their products.

A Mac mini upgrade should not take 4 years or more to get out the door. It doesn't take a huge team to update and upgrade and it is an important bridge (gateway drug) into the Apple ecosystem. But it's not sexy and cannot have a starting price of $1299, so it sits there unloved, an embarrassment for a company the size and stature of Apple. No amount of mea culpas will make people forget that sleight.

The MacBook Air should not have been left to languish while the 12" MacBook left many, but not all, wanting...other than the display, the 13" MBA could not be beat...for most of us (disclosure: I never owned one). People will deride my sentimentality or accuse me of hypocrisy as my stance on replacing all the various ports on the MacBook Pro with USB-C/Thunderbolt 3 remains solidly intact, but the MacBook Air was perhaps Steve's second best Mac, after the original iMac.

The Mac Pro should not have been left to age into obscurity because someone got their ego bruised when the people who depend on a Pro tool were told, here it is, love it or leave it. Oh, and it costs serious bank, but we don't care about your input, we made it this small to keep raw material costs down while leaving the price as is. And people left it, people Apple could ill afford to lose, but who were considered acceptable losses.

Perhaps, Apple (and its management) will make a compelling case for users before the end of the year. Or not. Time will tell. More people will leave. I will be hear a while longer...I hate Windows with the burning fire of 10,000 suns, but not 10,001. I am not the only one.
 
Unless it can't utilize all that goodness because of fashion.
But it can. I assume you are making a thinly-veiled reference to the "throttling" issue, that turned out to be because of an errata in the i9's datasheet, and quickly identified and fixed with a software update.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.