Apple Still Planning Return to In-Person Work in September, Despite Employee Complaints

[gpwdeux]

I expect Apple will lose some very talented people over this.

Naw. this isn't directed at the "talented" people. They aren't talented because they collaborate in person or remotely. They are talented because they bring an element of excellence to what they do and they are allowed to do that regardless of how they choose to accomplish it. This is directed to the tens of thousands or easily replaceable mildly talented drones who overestimate their worth to the company. They will move on to another company, Apple will hire replacements, and in a year or so, neither will remember the other as anything more than a vague memory.

 

[DaveSanDiego]

I want to know where these supposedly "entitled" employees are coming from. When they were hired, the had to show up each day, go to there alloted desk, workbench etc, and perform the series of tasks that they had convinced Apple was "value-added". During the pandemic, Apple had to make sacrifices in its business model to stay afloat, and some of those were the temporary work from home orders. Now that those restrictions have been lifted, Apple is perfectly within their rights to demand that their employees return to the routine in place when they were hired. Just because the employees "liked" the temporary situation... their "well being" returns to pre-pandemic levels, their "family interaction" returns to pre-pandemic levels, and if they were not already "doing their best work" before... then something else is wrong.

So... quit whining and return to the employment situation that you had already agreed to....

 

[I7guy]

At least here in Germany for some IT companies it is hard to find skilled people. So I guess that people who are just grateful to have a job are not top notch and probably not he employees Coole wants.

People who are very good in there jib most probably know their value to the company.

Extremely talented people are an asset to a company. However, as talented as a person might be if they don't "get with the program", they will be replaced.

Ask Scott Forstall.

 

[stevet]

Unless you've suddenly changed your mind, we very much do not agree. There's nothing entitled about wanting to cut out the commute if being in an office doesn't have any impact on the work you produce.


Which one is the bubble?

You know, the one where employees write a rambling incoherent letter to complain that they weren’t involved in the management decision and that they feel like they should be able to do whatever they want. This is the type of people that Apple doesn’t need and I will guarantee are not top tier developers.

 

[shinyleaf]

Yes, they do: At least in my group of family and friends the very talented ones started sending out resumés immediately when it became obvious their companies were going to insist of various levels of in-person return to office work. They got hired nearly immediately by companies who were progressive and able to change with the times, not run by doddering fools, set in their ways, who think that employers get to lord over their slavering masses. Their previous employers were left scrambling to fill vacancies with lesser qualified persons because all of the best and most qualified persons are doing exactly the same thing; going with employers who have moved forward.

I can echo that sentiment. I work as a software engineer at a company that's remote friendly. There's about 15000 employees total. About 60% of our employees are designated as 100% remote. We have both software and hardware products.

During this pandemic, we've transitioned everyone to remote and banned people from going to the offices unless there's no other option. There's literally ZERO impact to timelines and release schedules. In some cases people are MORE productive than they were in the office.

A lot of the commenters here who are having a hard time grasping how remote work functions, and not understanding how time is wasted at the office:

• You spend time 'getting coffee' with coworkers.
• Commute time of 30mins - 1 hour each day.
• Time spent in hallways 'waiting for the meeting room to free up'. Waiting for the elevator, etc.
• People with kids that they needed to leave at certain time to pick up from school.

^ All this 'office' activity adds up to nearly 1 hour or more every day. In remote work, all that time is now work time.

----------------------------

To that point, my company has actually CLOSED several of our smaller offices permanently. It saved money and some of the savings went to salary increases instead. Additionally, being remote first let us hire better people. We're not longer limited to hiring engineers near our offices: we can hire anyone in a similar timezone as the rest of the team. I now have new coworkers that span 3 timezones across US. Many of them no where near our offices.

---------------------------

On Hiring and finding new jobs:

At this point in time in the tech industry: If your company doesn't offer 100% remote or majority remote option, you'll have a tough time hiring qualified, knowledgable people with tons of industry experience. Why?

-> Because those highly qualified people have tons of options. Other companies like mine are ready to hire those people and give them 100% remote work. Companies that insist on majority work in office will need to offer a lot more in pay and benefits to attract people.

I have friends who work at companies that are transitioning back to a 4-day in office schedule in September. They're growing and trying to hire senior / lead software engineers and couldn't hire anyone qualified for almost 2 months now. Why?

As soon as the qualified candidate hear 4-days in office a week, it's basically end of the phone screen with a 'not interested'. Good people with tons of experience have options. Lots of options. Especially if you have a place like Apple on your resume.

The way the tech job market is right now, the onus is on the company to attract best talent. Not the other way around.

 

[boss.king]

You know, the one where employees write a rambling incoherent letter to complain that they weren’t involved in the management decision and that they feel like they should be able to do whatever they want. This is the type of people that Apple doesn’t need and I will guarantee are not top tier developers.

Lol. You sound very upset that people want to work differently than the way you think they should work.

 

[Shirasaki]

It might not be the same in US, but here, there are plenty of restaurant, bars and other business relying on those people to move, you make people stay home you are also killing lots of collateral business.



Chances are, if you are that important to a company, you already have a different contract from the "regular guy" and already have different benefit anyway.

Yeah, collateral business. Australian small business already suffer hard by people not being able to move into country thanks to ScoMo anti-immigrant stance. But at the same time, those businesses may need to adapt and offer alternative services whenever possible. It is just usual changing the strategy along the way thing. I condemn some businesses that die out because of frequent and long lockdown, but eventually some will lose during the pandemic.

 

[Drk89wng]

I do not understand or empathize with these complaints. They were given a fair deal, some work from home time and work from office time. Not all industries have that luxury. Any one in retail, hospitality, etc have to interact with numerous strangers face to face in close capacity about 5 days a week to make ends meet. Office work environments are decently more controlled and spaced out with little to no close vicinity interactions required. The people complaining about this are beyond entitled. I understand most of them got used to working from home for the convenience and ability to be around family more but that doesn’t mean its meant to last forever. Let some of these whiny people try working at a restaurant or retail apple store for a period of time and then they will be thankful they have an office to go to.

 

[colourfastt]

I'm sure the very talented people are eager to go back to work.

What makes you think they haven't been working the entire time? Occupying a chair in a cubicle doesn't equal working.

 

[Rocko99991]

Entitles babies. Get back to work, rumpus time is over!

 

[colourfastt]

What do you think they've been doing for the past 18 months?

You sound like Mr. Spacely or something.

Some people are just stuck in 1961.

 

[genovelle]

Seen lots of people showing no sympathy to those employees asking to work from home. Then, how about eased traffic? How about less crowded transport system? How about cutting down building rents? Apple is always going to be exception but WFH isn’t something that has to be avoided at all costs as soon as pandemic is over. And for apple kicking employees, I’m fairly confident they are capable of kicking anyone in a moments notice that is not the core dude (Tim Cook circle), and wont suffer much backlash from other employee.

They drove there before and can again or make room for someone new. There are quite a few people who would love their jobs

 

[genovelle]

This is the answer. A lot of folks on this thread are likely easily replaced and approach their jobs that way. I’m in this boat, there’s plenty of JamfPro administrators out there, it’s not hard to learn Tanium, BigFix or SCCM either.

If you have a knowledge set that realistically less than a few dozen engineers on the planet have, there’s any number of tech companies that’ll match your salary and benefits and couldn’t care less where you work from. They’ll fly you in on biz class for any critical in person meeting.

To the average cog in the engine, they don’t see how this is possible, but Apple has a considerable amount of individual contributors with this leverage over them. Time will tell how it pans out.

I promise the engineers aren’t the ones

 

[genovelle]

No company has a brighter future than one where the employees meet in person after expressly saying they don't want to.

It’s time for those employees to go work somewhere else. And guess what, they will show up and work in person to get that job.
People suck.

 

[Shirasaki]

They drove there before and can again or make room for someone new. There are quite a few people who would love their jobs

So I guess working from office is reserved mostly for less qualified people now.
Bars certain industries or course.

 

[rpmurray]

Unless you've suddenly changed your mind, we very much do not agree. There's nothing entitled about wanting to cut out the commute if being in an office doesn't have any impact on the work you produce.

I meant in the sense that if Apple does go full remote then why should they pay first world prices for one entitled talent when they could hire four equally talented (but not entitled) people in a place where labor costs are less for the same amount?

 

[Absolute Trainwreck]

How sad. They’ll probably bleed some employees who will be much happier elsewhere. Seems apple isn’t the dev haven that people thought they were. Also the amount of hailcorporate in here is astounding. Imagine being that in love with a megacorp, it’s truly sad

 

[shinyleaf]

-> Because those highly qualified people have tons of options. Other companies like mine are ready to hire those people and give them 100% remote work. Companies that insist on majority work in office will need to offer a lot more in pay and benefits to attract people.

I have friends who work at companies that are transitioning back to a 4-day in office schedule in September. They're growing and trying to hire senior / lead software engineers and couldn't hire anyone qualified for almost 2 months now. Why?

As soon as the qualified candidate hear 4-days in office a week, it's basically end of the phone screen with a 'not interested'. Good people with tons of experience have options. Lots of options. Especially if you have a place like Apple on your resume.

The way the tech job market is right now, the onus is on the company to attract best talent. Not the other way around.

To drive home the point how competitive the tech industry is right now. We just added a junior engineer to my team. Fresh out of school. From our feedback conversations about our interview/hiring process, he said he had 3 other offers on the table within the same week he received ours. All offering flexible work option with unlimited time remote.

Even as a junior engineer with little to no commercial experience, he could negotiate pay and benefits. That's how competitive things are right now.

 

[AF_APPLETALK]

Notice how the response from the retail/hr lady didn't address their inclusion talking point.

 

[boss.king]

I meant in the sense that if Apple does go full remote then why should they pay first world prices for one entitled talent when they could hire four equally talented (but not entitled) people in a place where labor costs are less for the same amount?

If they can find cheaper, equally skilled talent elsewhere then they should already be talking to those people, no? But I suspect the reason they don't is that those people actually aren't equally or more skilled.

 

[Tig Bitties]

As more people stay at home and work remote and companies get comfortable with that I would think they will eventually start hiring cheaper labor from outside of the western countries and down the road most of these high-paying remote workers in the US and Europe will be looking for a new careers because it’ll be Third World IT people making a fraction of the salary doing their job soon enough


And going back to Apple’s point of wanting employees back working in the office if they say no I’ll get a job elsewhere apple will just say no problem we’ve got people lining up down the street foaming at the mouth to take your job and happy to go to work at this beautiful mega billion dollar campus and we built.

 

[rpmurray]

If they can find cheaper, equally skilled talent elsewhere then they should already be talking to those people, no? But I suspect the reason they don't is that those people actually aren't equally or more skilled.

They don't because they need those people to come into the Cupertino offices three days a week.

 

[boss.king]

They don't because they need those people to come into the Cupertino offices three days a week.

But if they're in fact a quarter of the price as you suggested, surely Apple could pay them half and get them to relocate for a win-win solution? Unless, of course, those people don't really exist.

 

[icwhatudidthere]

How sad. They’ll probably bleed some employees who will be much happier elsewhere. Seems apple isn’t the dev haven that people thought they were. Also the amount of hailcorporate in here is astounding. Imagine being that in love with a megacorp, it’s truly sad

Yeah, it's Apple so I'm not too surprised but it's almost on the fanatic level, even more than just fanboying.

It's also a really simplistic attitude. The reality is Apple has a vested interest in keeping current employees happy because turnover increases costs. That's amplified in the current situation because while lots of people want to work at Apple, there are also lots of openings now that remote work is a new option.

I'm hardly an Apple-caliber developer but I've gotten recruitment calls from Facebook and Amazon both for 100% remote, forever.

 

[I7guy]

I can echo that sentiment. I work as a software engineer at a company that's remote friendly. There's about 15000 employees total. About 60% of our employees are designated as 100% remote. We have both software and hardware products.

During this pandemic, we've transitioned everyone to remote and banned people from going to the offices unless there's no other option. There's literally ZERO impact to timelines and release schedules. In some cases people are MORE productive than they were in the office.

It's not been my experience the architects and engineers were more productive. In fact we met every release, but we had to pad the release timeframes due to lack of the ability to effectively collaborate.

A lot of the commenters here who are having a hard time grasping how remote work functions, and not understanding how time is wasted at the office:

• You spend time 'getting coffee' with coworkers.
• Commute time of 30mins - 1 hour each day.
• Time spent in hallways 'waiting for the meeting room to free up'. Waiting for the elevator, etc.
• People with kids that they needed to leave at certain time to pick up from school.

Coffee klotch conversations are a great way to engage co-workers (laterally, senior to you and who work for you) where in a zoom environment that wouldn't be possible. As far as hallway time, it's balanced by time needed for tech support or internet issues, etc. As far as people with kids, what they these people do prior to lockdown?

^ All this 'office' activity adds up to nearly 1 hour or more every day. In remote work, all that time is now work time.

----------------------------

To that point, my company has actually CLOSED several of our smaller offices permanently. It saved money and some of the savings went to salary increases instead. Additionally, being remote first let us hire better people. We're not longer limited to hiring engineers near our offices: we can hire anyone in a similar timezone as the rest of the team. I now have new coworkers that span 3 timezones across US. Many of them no where near our offices.

---------------------------

We also have coworkers that are across the globe, but we want our people to be in offices.

On Hiring and finding new jobs:

At this point in time in the tech industry: If your company doesn't offer 100% remote or majority remote option, you'll have a tough time hiring qualified, knowledgable people with tons of industry experience. Why?

Not true.

-> Because those highly qualified people have tons of options. Other companies like mine are ready to hire those people and give them 100% remote work. Companies that insist on majority work in office will need to offer a lot more in pay and benefits to attract people.

Yup, and that extra pay and benefits goes a long way to getting the top, top people.

I have friends who work at companies that are transitioning back to a 4-day in office schedule in September. They're growing and trying to hire senior / lead software engineers and couldn't hire anyone qualified for almost 2 months now. Why?

I don't know in your case, but we routinely have positions open for 6 months or more looking for the "right" candidate.

As soon as the qualified candidate hear 4-days in office a week, it's basically end of the phone screen with a 'not interested'. Good people with tons of experience have options. Lots of options. Especially if you have a place like Apple on your resume.

Yep and we wouldn't be interested in them either...there has to be that fit.

The way the tech job market is right now, the onus is on the company to attract best talent. Not the other way around.

I disagree with this, but to each their own.