Apple Stops Signing iOS 16.3.1 to Prevent Downgrading

[I7guy]

I’m referring to the 6s. If my Xʀ got 4.5 hours on iOS 12 I’d laugh at my own numbers, rather than praise them.

There are some websites it can’t run, but the ones that do run, do so flawlessly.

Xs onwards. The A11 Bionic iPhones are not good. They’re better than A9 and A10 iPhones, but they’re not good.

Also, once again, we aren’t at the end of the road yet. A12 iPhones have more updates left in them.

Like I said on a different thread: maybe we can hope that battery life on the Xʀ onwards is good enough in one way. As their battery life is better (the Xʀ on iOS 12 gets more than twice the battery life that the 6s on iOS 10 gets), maybe we can hope that they can withstand significant degradation and still remain usable.

It seems clear your xr is going suffer degradation, while my max probably won’t.

It wouldn’t make updates good, but if battery size can overwhelm updates, well, that would be a lot better for users.

The iPhone 6s sees more than a 40% drop with a new battery. Once battery health decreases, the phone is unusable (unlike one on iOS 10, like I said).

Maybe the Xʀ onwards can have a 30% drop, and with a little luck, the final iOS update’s power requirements won’t be so stringent so as to obliterate the device, like iOS 15 does to the 6s. Obviously, this remains to be seen, but it would be nice.

I’m expecting similar for iOS 17 to what I have today. Of course in September 2023’i expect to have an iPhone 15PM to which I will diligently kee updated to the latest version as I do today.

Because while, yes, a 30% drop coupled with increased power requirements - which causes lower battery health iPhones to be significantly impacted -

It’s not increased power requirements- it’s more functionality and concurrency which can be turned off which will use more battery than an older version.

would probably be enough to drop the Xʀ numbers to 6s numbers (while new), that is usable. If a degraded battery on iOS 18 or whatever on a Xʀ can get 9 hours with light use, maybe it can get 6 hours of heavier use. Pathetic compared to iOS 12 (whose numbers are more 16 and 11-12), but somewhat usable, unlike the iPhone 6s. Users report less than 2 hours with a somewhat degraded battery on a 6s, and I’ve seen it myself. That’s not usable.

Who knows? Making a projection on an estimated estimate is fairly dicey.

I’m not a heavy user, but as far as the Xʀ goes, I’m quite sure that barring any issues, as far as the battery goes, it should be able to last many, many years.

Last is relative. My 4s is 13 years old and I believe one or two things still work. Battery life is great for those one or two things.

If iPads are good 10 years in or more, I have no reason to doubt that the battery life will be a problem, for this device’s entire lifespan.


I mean, the reason is obvious: increased power requirements on new iOS versions increase load on the battery.

No. Increased functionality and concurrency cause more power to be drawn from the battery. It’s a good trade off - do more use more battery.

That’s why battery life is worse on new iOS versions, and that’s why degraded batteries struggle on updated devices.

It’s not worse in iPhone X and beyond for iPhones.

 

[FeliApple]

It seems clear your xr is going suffer degradation, while my max probably won’t.

The opposite, you misunderstood my comment: I meant degradation solely in terms of battery runtime.

I’m expecting similar for iOS 17 to what I have today. Of course in September 2023’i expect to have an iPhone 15PM to which I will diligently kee updated to the latest version as I do today.

Unknowable until then.

It’s not increased power requirements- it’s more functionality and concurrency which can be turned off which will use more battery than an older version.

So, increased power requirements, like I said.

Who knows? Making a projection on an estimated estimate is fairly dicey.

Agreed, I wasn’t making an estimate. I said “if it can get that”, meaning, if it can get the amount of hours I said earlier, it will be usable in terms of battery life, unlike an updated 6s.

Last is relative. My 4s is 13 years old and I believe one or two things still work. Battery life is great for those one or two things.

Which is why I said “as far as the battery goes”.

No. Increased functionality and concurrency cause more power to be drawn from the battery. It’s a good trade off - do more use more battery.

This is what I said, and whether it’s good is subjective: I think it isn’t. As far as my device can do what I need it to, I want it in the most efficient version possible.

It’s not worse in iPhone X and beyond for iPhones.

This has been discussed, I don’t want to beat a dead horse.

 

[I7guy]

The opposite, you misunderstood my comment: I meant degradation solely in terms of battery runtime.

Oh I don’t predict battery runtime degradation for my Xs max.

Unknowable until then.

Glad we agree we are not fortune tellers.

So, increased power requirements, like I said.

Increased functionality that can be turned off disabled or not used. Stop the spin.

Agreed, I wasn’t making an estimate. I said “if it can get that”, meaning, if it can get the amount of hours I said earlier, it will be usable in terms of battery life, unlike an updated 6s.

Which is why I said “as far as the battery goes”.

This is what I said, and whether it’s good is subjective: I think it isn’t. As far as my device can do what I need it to, I want it in the most efficient version possible.

This has been discussed, I don’t want to beat a dead horse.

We each have our own opinions, as you say irreconcilable differences in opinions. My opinion is iPhone X and beyond are good for 5 or 6 years. Day 1 performance with a new battery. It should be easy to prove that opinion is incorrect…right?

 

[FeliApple]

Oh I don’t predict battery runtime degradation for my Xs max.

It is already there on iOS 16.

Glad we agree we are not fortune tellers.

I’d be surprised if iOS updates are as good as original versions if updated far enough. So far they have never been, not too much of a prediction, more like a historical component of Apple’s malware.

Increased functionality that can be turned off disabled or not used. Stop the spin.

This is simply not true. There’s nothing you can disable within iOS to negate iOS updates’ runtime degradation. Settings can be tweaked, but you could tweak them on earlier versions, too.

 

[I7guy]

It is already there on iOS 16.

No it’s not. My iPhone 14PM disagrees with you as does my Xs max.

I’d be surprised if iOS updates are as good as original versions if updated far enough. So far they have never been, not too much of a prediction, more like a historical component of Apple’s malware.

iOS updates are unequivocally better than the originals in every aspect; functionality, fixes and battery life jn older models since the iPhone X.

This is simply not true. There’s nothing you can disable within iOS to negate iOS updates’ runtime degradation. Settings can be tweaked, but you could tweak them on earlier versions, too.

Simply false. iOS is very customizable. BAR, notifications, wall paper, reduce white point and on and on and on. It’s a false narrative that after the iPhone X iOS is malware. Just hyperbole.

 

[FeliApple]

No it’s not. My iPhone 14PM disagrees with you as does my Xs max.

The iPhone 14 Pro Max is on its original version, of course it’ll be good. The Xs Max isn’t as good as it was on iOS 12.

You can’t use the 14 Pro Max as an argument, it’s as if I were to say “well, the Xʀ back in 2018 was amazing and it was fully updated”. Well, yes. That’s my whole point: original versions are good.

iOS updates are unequivocally better than the originals in every aspect; functionality, fixes and battery life jn older models since the iPhone X.

Functionality: agreed. Fixes: depends on every version. Some fix bugs, some introduce them. Battery life isn’t and I’m not mentioning this again.

Simply false. iOS is very customizable. BAR, notifications, wall paper, reduce white point and on and on and on. It’s a false narrative that after the iPhone X iOS is malware. Just hyperbole.

You can do all of that on iOS 12 in order to get a better result. Every customizable setting on iOS 16 can be toggled on iOS 12 to get even more battery life. Which is why “you can tweak settings” isn’t too strong of a defense.

As far as new settings which aren’t on iOS 12, they’re irrelevant, as you don’t even have them as an energy sapper on iOS 12. The whole OS uses more power, even if it has everything turned off (that you can turn off, of course).

 

[I7guy]

The iPhone 14 Pro Max is on its original version, of course it’ll be good. The Xs Max isn’t as good as it was on iOS 12.

You can’t use the 14 Pro Max as an argument, it’s as if I were to say “well, the Xʀ back in 2018 was amazing and it was fully updated”. Well, yes. That’s my whole point: original versions are good.

True about the Xs max on ios 12 if the only factor is force touch. Other than that the max does equivalently on ios 16 with updated functionality and security patches.

Functionality: agreed. Fixes: depends on every version. Some fix bugs, some introduce them. Battery life isn’t and I’m not mentioning this again.

I disagree and you know my opinion.

You can do all of that on iOS 12 in order to get a better result. Every customizable setting on iOS 16 can be toggled on iOS 12 to get even more battery life. Which is why “you can tweak settings” isn’t too strong of a defense.

Yes you can tweak anyway you want and that's the great thing. You can make the operating systems perform as similarly as possible. Bottom line I can't factually prove my assertion but neither can you. It's your anecdotal experience vs mine vs others..

As far as new settings which aren’t on iOS 12, they’re irrelevant, as you don’t even have them as an energy sapper on iOS 12. The whole OS uses more power, even if it has everything turned off (that you can turn off, of course).

You can't prove it. All there is, is my experience with having apple install a new battery on the xs max. And imo, I'm getting day 1 battery life. IOS upgrades do not cause battery life issues on more modern iphone processors. They are designed way better than the 6s, which was a leap up for it's time, but the iphone 7 had a pretty big leap up from the 6s.

 

[FeliApple]

True about the Xs max on ios 12 if the only factor is force touch. Other than that the max does equivalently on ios 16 with updated functionality and security patches.

I had forgotten about Apple’s obliteration of 3D Touch on iOS 13! There you go, one more thing... as Apple likes to say.

I disagree and you know my opinion.

Yes you can tweak anyway you want and that's the great thing. You can make the operating systems perform as similarly as possible. Bottom line I can't factually prove my assertion but neither can you. It's your anecdotal experience vs mine vs others..

I have repeatedly stated that I think that for the A12 Bionic iPhones onwards, updates aren’t an issue as far as performance goes. I have praised this. Battery life is better (than earlier 64-bit devices), but not the same. And like I said: not at the end of the road yet...

You can't prove it. All there is, is my experience with having apple install a new battery on the xs max. And imo, I'm getting day 1 battery life. IOS upgrades do not cause battery life issues on more modern iphone processors. They are designed way better than the 6s, which was a leap up for it's time, but the iphone 7 had a pretty big leap up from the 6s.

It’s interesting that you refuse to post a screenshot while I posted mine ages ago. I just don’t believe that it’s as good. Close? Sure, I never said the impact would be massive on iOS 16 (in fact, available information shows it’s about a 15-20% impact with efficient settings, non-efficient settings would probably increase that a little), but yes, nothing unusable, but then again, I mentioned this before (right before saying I hope Apple can give it a decent standing at the end of its support lifespan).

As far as the 6s vs 7, it wasn’t a leap at all. Battery life was identical. I tested them side to side myself (6s on iOS 9 (before Apple forcibly obliterated it via their malware), 7 on iOS 10).

 

[I7guy]

I had forgotten about Apple’s obliteration of 3D Touch on iOS 13! There you go, one more thing... as Apple likes to say.

I have repeatedly stated that I think that for the A12 Bionic iPhones onwards, updates aren’t an issue as far as performance goes. I have praised this. Battery life is better (than earlier 64-bit devices), but not the same. And like I said: not at the end of the road yet...

Battery life not being the same is fuzzy and could mean anything including within normal statistical deviations.

It’s interesting that you refuse to post a screenshot while I posted mine ages ago.

I already gave my rational. Can't compare my phone, my usage against some mythical benchmark. Has to be compared against my phone my usage when I first acquired the phone.

I just don’t believe that it’s as good. Close? Sure, I never said the impact would be massive on iOS 16 (in fact, available information shows it’s about a 15-20% impact with efficient settings, non-efficient settings would probably increase that a little), but yes, nothing unusable, but then again, I mentioned this before (right before saying I hope Apple can give it a decent standing at the end of its support lifespan).

Well sure, your welcome to your opinion of "my" battery life. And 15 to 20% could be a normal statistical deviation. There is no way to pin this down to the millisecond. And noting that I have my questions about what a full day of usage really means for your 6s.

As far as the 6s vs 7, it wasn’t a leap at all. Battery life was identical. I tested them side to side myself (6s on iOS 9 (before Apple forcibly obliterated it via their malware), 7 on iOS 10).

I think starting with the iphone 7 Apple was headed toward more efficient processors. My own observation is that my iphone 7 on ios 8 had "better" battery life than my 6s on ios 8. But as these conversations show YMMV. Our observations are guided by our different experiences, which is normal considering the two billion activated devices each have their own usage patterns.

 

[FeliApple]

Battery life not being the same is fuzzy and could mean anything including within normal statistical

I don’t think over 20% with the same usage is statistical deviation. The margin of error isn’t that high.

Like I have stated before, battery life with similar settings and usage conditions and patterns is extremely predictable, down to the minute.

Allow me to give an example: my 9.7-inch iPad Pro, after being forced into iOS 12, lasts 2h 40 min of screen-on time from 100% to 80%. If it isn’t 2h 40 min, it’s 2h 35 min, or 2h 45 min. Always. Battery life is extremely predictable with similar usage. I mostly use my iPad for the same tasks, therefore it’s always extremely predictable. It’s very easy, henceforth, to compare battery life for the same user on different iOS versions. Do that with enough usage patterns, and it’s possible to confidently assess battery life for any other iOS device (that’s the same model).

I already gave my rational. Can't compare my phone, my usage against some mythical benchmark. Has to be compared against my phone my usage when I first acquired the phone.

Like I said, it’s very easy to assess the overall results.

For a Xʀ user: With social media and LTE maybe they’d get close to 9-10 hours on iOS 12. With Wi-Fi, it was closer to 12 hours (with settings that aren’t so perfectly efficient). Current users report 6-7 hours. Or the 20% I mentioned earlier with efficient settings, and a little higher with non-efficient settings like varied LTE.

I’d have a rough idea if I were to update my Xʀ: 20% loss with Wi-Fi, and heavier usage has a higher power requirement because iOS 16 is more vulnerable to higher usage peaks. Current numbers available indicate it to be on the realm of 25-30%. Is it perfect? No. Is it variable? Yes. Do I care? Also no. I have a rough idea, with a certain margin of error, of a possible impact of iOS 16. With my usage: 16 hours of light Wi-Fi use and 11-12 of heavier full LTE use, I can expect around 12 hours of light Wi-Fi use, and the 7 hours I mentioned earlier with less efficient usage (perhaps a little higher for me because my settings are very efficient). Allow for a certain margin of error, but I’d have a rough idea. If it’s not 12 it’s 11 or 11.5, if it’s not 7 it’s 6 or 7.5. Of course it depends on my specific usage, but like I said: it’s fairly predictable.

Well sure, your welcome to your opinion of "my" battery life. And 15 to 20% could be a normal statistical deviation. There is no way to pin this down to the millisecond. And noting that I have my questions about what a full day of usage really means for your 6s.

My comment above showed that predicting my battery life on iOS 16 to the millisecond is impossible. 20% is not a statistical deviation, and I can’t believe you actually said that. 2-3% is within a margin of error. Considering the variation in usage patterns, 5% could be an acceptable margin of error, too. 20% is not. 20% means over three hours of SOT with light use on iOS 12 for the Xʀ. For the 9.7-inch iPad Pro, it meant the 20-25% of irreversible battery loss that iOS 12 brought about. There is always a margin of error, but 20-25% for the 9.7-inch iPad Pro on iOS 12 isn’t a margin of error, there was a definitive impact on battery life. Very noticeable. Like I said: I wasn’t happy with my 9.7-inch iPad Pro’s battery life after Apple’s forced malware, and I wouldn’t be happy with the Xʀ on iOS 16 with a similar impact as well.

The extent to which this degradation matters to a person is different for everyone. Perhaps you wouldn’t care. Perhaps you wouldn’t have cared about the 9.7-inch iPad Pro losing 3 hours of SOT after Apple forced it. I did care, and I would care about something similar affecting the Xʀ.

I think starting with the iphone 7 Apple was headed toward more efficient processors. My own observation is that my iphone 7 on ios 8 had "better" battery life than my 6s on ios 8. But as these conversations show YMMV. Our observations are guided by our different experiences, which is normal considering the two billion activated devices each have their own usage patterns.

Neither of those devices ran iOS 8. The original versions were iOS 9 and 10, respectively. The vast majority of users reported a similar battery life, my own tests confirmed that. Again, unless usage patterns differed (which might very well be the cause for your observed variation), battery life was surprisingly similar. Apple explicitly stated that it would improve, and I was extremely surprised when it didn’t.

 

[I7guy]

I don’t think over 20% with the same usage is statistical deviation. The margin of error isn’t that high.

That's the thing we don't know and you can't prove otherwise.

Like I have stated before, battery life with similar settings and usage conditions and patterns is extremely predictable, down to the minute.

Only if one thing is done. Otherwise battery life is not predictable at all.

Allow me to give an example: my 9.7-inch iPad Pro, after being forced into iOS 12, lasts 2h 40 min of screen-on time from 100% to 80%. If it isn’t 2h 40 min, it’s 2h 35 min, or 2h 45 min. Always. Battery life is extremely predictable with similar usage. I mostly use my iPad for the same tasks, therefore it’s always extremely predictable. It’s very easy, henceforth, to compare battery life for the same user on different iOS versions. Do that with enough usage patterns, and it’s possible to confidently assess battery life for any other iOS device (that’s the same model).

I would say the average iphone owner while doing similar things doesn't do the same thing the same way. For example, watching a youtube video in full sun on lte is quite different on battery life than watching a youtube video in a dark room next to a wifi router.

Like I said, it’s very easy to assess the overall results.

For a Xʀ user: With social media and LTE maybe they’d get close to 9-10 hours on iOS 12. With Wi-Fi, it was closer to 12 hours (with settings that aren’t so perfectly efficient). Current users report 6-7 hours. Or the 20% I mentioned earlier with efficient settings, and a little higher with non-efficient settings like varied LTE.

I’d have a rough idea if I were to update my Xʀ: 20% loss with Wi-Fi, and heavier usage has a higher power requirement because iOS 16 is more vulnerable to higher usage peaks. Current numbers available indicate it to be on the realm of 25-30%. Is it perfect? No. Is it variable? Yes. Do I care? Also no. I have a rough idea, with a certain margin of error, of a possible impact of iOS 16. With my usage: 16 hours of light Wi-Fi use and 11-12 of heavier full LTE use, I can expect around 12 hours of light Wi-Fi use, and the 7 hours I mentioned earlier with less efficient usage (perhaps a little higher for me because my settings are very efficient). Allow for a certain margin of error, but I’d have a rough idea. If it’s not 12 it’s 11 or 11.5, if it’s not 7 it’s 6 or 7.5. Of course it depends on my specific usage, but like I said: it’s fairly predictable.

My comment above showed that predicting my battery life on iOS 16 to the millisecond is impossible. 20% is not a statistical deviation, and I can’t believe you actually said that. 2-3% is within a margin of error. Considering the variation in usage patterns, 5% could be an acceptable margin of error, too. 20% is not. 20% means over three hours of SOT with light use on iOS 12 for the Xʀ. For the 9.7-inch iPad Pro, it meant the 20-25% of irreversible battery loss that iOS 12 brought about. There is always a margin of error, but 20-25% for the 9.7-inch iPad Pro on iOS 12 isn’t a margin of error, there was a definitive impact on battery life. Very noticeable. Like I said: I wasn’t happy with my 9.7-inch iPad Pro’s battery life after Apple’s forced malware, and I wouldn’t be happy with the Xʀ on iOS 16 with a similar impact as well.

The extent to which this degradation matters to a person is different for everyone. Perhaps you wouldn’t care. Perhaps you wouldn’t have cared about the 9.7-inch iPad Pro losing 3 hours of SOT after Apple forced it. I did care, and I would care about something similar affecting the Xʀ.

Neither of those devices ran iOS 8. The original versions were iOS 9 and 10, respectively. The vast majority of users reported a similar battery life, my own tests confirmed that. Again, unless usage patterns differed (which might very well be the cause for your observed variation), battery life was surprisingly similar. Apple explicitly stated that it would improve, and I was extremely surprised when it didn’t.

My overall take is that your numbers are fuzzy at best. In lieu of citations, they can't be proved and are guesstimates and imo, are some aggregated numbers based on information cobbled together from the internet. The 6s although sporting a great processor was grossly inefficient compared to the iphone 7 (imo) and hence battery life on the iphone 7 is better. (even though i cited the wrong ios versions - and it was impossible for the iphone 7 to run ios 8) Degradation is something uniquely individual and not applicable to all iphone owners across the board. More applicable to 32 bit devices and phones below the iphone x. Even Apples specs says the iphone 7 lasted more than the 6s. 2 hours is not "the same" as the 6s. So in your testing the 6s and 7 are the same but Apple claims differently. Hence my anecdotal claim that ios 16 has not had an impact on the battery life of my xs max with a new battery. As for my ipad 7th gen, ipados 16 has not had an impact either.

And here is how Apple conducts it's battery tests: https://www.apple.com/iphone/battery.html

 

[FeliApple]

That's the thing we don't know and you can't prove otherwise.

No, 20% isn’t a margin of error.

Only if one thing is done. Otherwise battery life is not predictable at all.

I also disagree here. In my experience, it is very predictable. You have to have a little more data, but it’s very predictable.

You’ve repeatedly stated that you don’t monitor battery life. Give it a shot! You’ll be surprised when you start predicting SOT based on your usage patterns.

Like I stated: numbers aren’t perfect. There is always some variation, but it doesn’t matter: it’s very possible to make good estimates.

I’ll give a 6s on iOS 9 rundown with amazing battery health:
Light use on Wi-Fi? 8-8.5 hours, low brightness. This includes texting, Safari, some writing on a low-powered writing app, some reading.

Increase brightness a little? It’ll drop to around 7.5. Increase brightness with some social media? Maybe 7. Heavy social media use? It’ll probably strain to get 6, some apps are very heavy.

Moderate use? (Includes part of outdoors LTE, very occasional camera - maybe a few pictures, and higher brightness, maybe mixed with some Wi-Fi use): it’ll get around 6. The heavier things you include, the worse it’ll be. More social media? It’ll be below that number, for example.

Moderate to heavy? It’ll be around 5.

Heavy use? Far harder to predict. Why? Because heavy apps vary tremendously in power requirements. Gaming? Maybe 3 hours. Heavy maps? Maybe 3, too. But this is far harder to predict, like I said.

Go ahead, take a quick glance at the 6s thread which includes hundreds of screenshots. With a little description from the user, I can predict the battery life before I see the number. Like I said: predictable, once you know a little about the device.

I’m sorry but I have to say this: you said you haven’t ever tracked it, so of course you wouldn’t know.

Is it perfectly precise? Of course not. I never claimed my numbers were. But it’s far more predictable than you give it credit for.

Numbers deviate too much? (for the worse, so lower): okay, no worries. Two things: a possible hardware issue, but before that... try some settings. Maybe a combo within your specific configuration is killing your battery. Assuming it’s that, once you solve it? It’ll be in the realm of what I said. Always.

Battery life is far more predictable than many people think. Individual settings don’t have a dramatic impact. You have to tweak a bunch of very identifiable settings to make a significant difference.

Why did I complain so much about my iPad? I tracked its battery life for 3.5 years on iOS 9. I knew how much that thing would last to the damn minute. iOS 12 came... and now it’s the exact same patterns... except 3 hours below what they should be.

Give it a shot. You’ll find some outliers, of course. But those numbers are repeated throughout the entire thread, over and over and over again.

Funnily enough: all 4.7-inch iPhones have a similar battery life. I played a game with some users: describe your usage pattern and settings and I can predict (again, with some margin of error), your battery life. I was always within the realm of reality.

Again, this is not me being some sort of wizard: it’s a repeated pattern throughout every single iOS device. Give it a shot if you like! Your thoughts would be very interesting.

I would say the average iphone owner while doing similar things doesn't do the same thing the same way. For example, watching a youtube video in full sun on lte is quite different on battery life than watching a youtube video in a dark room next to a wifi router.

Sure, and you can account for that, very easily. In fact, now that you being that up: your point is correct. It is far more difficult to predict that, because people tend to post screenshots of less varying usage patterns: if you see the threads, many go “today I was out all day, full LTE”, or “today I had access to Wi-Fi, so, vast majority was Wi-Fi”.

Do you want to know what the most interesting part about this is? That you can make that a pattern! “Okay. Let’s see, today I watched some YouTube with Wi-Fi on a dark room, maybe for about an hour. Then, I went outside, disabled Wi-Fi, and used YouTube on full brightness because of the sunlight for this amount of time”. I am absolutely sure that if you maintain the iOS version and settings, that number is extremely replicable. Will it be different than one on full Wi-Fi on a dark screen and one of full brightness on full LTE throughout? Yes! But there will be a pattern that can easily be predicted (to a certain degree and with a certain margin of error).
Full Wi-Fi 8 hours, Full LTE 5 hours? Great. Something in the middle will be between 5 and 8. Where? Well, the more Wi-Fi, the closer it is. Predictable. A pattern. A perfect pattern? No! It can vary. But you can be sure that such a prediction (with repeatedly collected data), won’t be as poor as you imply it to be.

My overall take is that your numbers are fuzzy at best. In lieu of citations, they can't be proved and are guesstimates and imo, are some aggregated numbers based on information cobbled together from the internet.

Give it a shot. It would be great. I am confident enough to say “I know you’ll be surprised” instead of “I think you’ll be surprised”.

The 6s although sporting a great processor was grossly inefficient compared to the iphone 7 (imo) and hence battery life on the iphone 7 is better. (even though i cited the wrong ios versions - and it was impossible for the iphone 7 to run ios 8)

All of the information I’ve seen suggests that if the 7 is better, then it is negligible (on original iOS versions. It is likely that some versions affected the 6s more than the 7, for obvious reasons which I have alluded to a million times before).

Degradation is something uniquely individual and not applicable to all iphone owners across the board. More applicable to 32 bit devices and phones below the iphone x. Even Apples specs says the iphone 7 lasted more than the 6s. 2 hours is not "the same" as the 6s. So in your testing the 6s and 7 are the same but Apple claims differently. Hence my anecdotal claim that ios 16 has not had an impact on the battery life of my xs max with a new battery. As for my ipad 7th gen, ipados 16 has not had an impact either.

And here is how Apple conducts it's battery tests: https://www.apple.com/iphone/battery.html

View attachment 2190490

Apple’s claims are irrelevant. They claim “up to 10 hours” on every. single. iPad ever released, and it is common knowledge among long-term iPad users that battery life isn’t the same for every iPad ever released.

 

[I7guy]

[...]

Apple’s claims are irrelevant. They claim “up to 10 hours” on every. single. iPad ever released, and it is common knowledge among long-term iPad users that battery life isn’t the same for every iPad ever released.

In my own opinion, in the scheme of things, I hold Apples' claims about battery life to be more relevant/trustworthy than uncited opinions from anonymous sources. The takeaway here, in the absence of facts (and opinions being promulgated as facts and fuzzy conclusions), nothing can be proven or disproven.

 

[FeliApple]

In my own opinion, in the scheme of things, I hold Apples' claims about battery life to be more relevant/trustworthy than uncited opinions from anonymous sources. The takeaway here, in the absence of facts (and opinions being promulgated as facts and fuzzy conclusions), nothing can be proven or disproven.

Okay, you’d be wrong, because Apple has always been wrong.

Apple’s own numbers for the iPhone 6s (even with perfect conditions, sometimes even more efficient than their own settings) are unreachable in the real world.

Apple’s numbers for the iPhone Xʀ are reachable on iOS 12 only, and once again, with far more efficient settings than their own.

You can believe whatever you see fit. I believe I’ve made my point here, presented accurate and reliable information.

I’ve explained why Apple’s numbers are completely useless (and the user experience in the real world to back me up).

It would be interesting to see your own findings on this, but alas, we can’t get everything we want.

Apple has lab conditions which do not translate to the real world. On iPads... Apple has garbage. Apple’s numbers are garbage. They claim 10 hours for every model. As an iPad user yourself, if you have ever used two iPads you’ll know that that number being the exact same for every model is nonsensical.

 

[I7guy]

Okay, you’d be wrong, because Apple has always been wrong.

Apple’s own numbers for the iPhone 6s (even with perfect conditions, sometimes even more efficient than their own settings) are unreachable in the real world.

Apple’s numbers for the iPhone Xʀ are reachable on iOS 12 only, and once again, with far more efficient settings than their own.

So apples numbers are wrong except for the xr. That’s too bold a claim for me to believe because then apple would be lying…right? If apples numbers are called into suspicion imo so are yours.

You can believe whatever you see fit. I believe I’ve made my point here, presented accurate and reliable information.

Thank you. Imo, you have presented numbers not indicative of the real world usage as my own Xs max counters your numbers. Let the universe decide whose right and wrong.

I’ve explained why Apple’s numbers are completely useless (and the user experience in the real world to back me up).

Apples numbers are a benchmark. At least they test the same way in a repeatable fashion. But I agree benchmarks are not real world usage. And my user experience is different than your projections.

It would be interesting to see your own findings on this, but alas, we can’t get everything we want.

Apple has lab conditions which do not translate to the real world. On iPads... Apple has garbage. Apple’s numbers are garbage. They claim 10 hours for every model. As an iPad user yourself, if you have ever used two iPads you’ll know that that number being the exact same for every model is nonsensical.

I get close to 10 hours of consumption with my iPad. Of course it’s near ideal conditions…I admit that.

Anyway we’ve discussed this quite a bit and we’re ending up with different real world observations. We use our devices differently, we have different interpretations of what constitutes factual data and drawing logical conclusions from said data. So all in all it’s been a fun discussion with each of us having our takeaways from it.

 

[FeliApple]

So apples numbers are wrong except for the xr. That’s too bold a claim for me to believe because then apple would be lying…right? If apples numbers are called into suspicion imo so are yours.

I will reply to this a little later.

Thank you. Imo, you have presented numbers not indicative of the real world usage as my own Xs max counters your numbers. Let the universe decide whose right and wrong.

I’d love to see them. Remember I have mentioned that from the Xʀ onwards, as of iOS 16, the degradation seems to be quite low, in the realm of 15 to 20%, maybe more with very inefficient usage. But as far as efficient usage goes, it doesn’t seem too awful (unlike, say, the iPhone 6s). I have said that, as of iOS 16, your Xs Max, my Xʀ, the iPhone 11, etc, are totally usable for a moderate user on iOS 16.

Apples numbers are a benchmark. At least they test the same way in a repeatable fashion. But I agree benchmarks are not real world usage. And my user experience is different than your projections.

I think Apple’s numbers are a little weird because their conditions are probably too perfect to be replicable. Still, Apple’s numbers are confusing, I’ll say why below.

I get close to 10 hours of consumption with my iPad. Of course it’s near ideal conditions…I admit that.

Here I will explain: Apple underestimates iPads and overestimates iPhones. With everything being beyond efficient (iOS 12, light use, very low brightness, full Wi-Fi, extremely efficient settings), the Xʀ barely gets to 16 hours. The iPhone 6s fails to get the 10 hours on Wi-Fi, and Apple’s claims on LTE for that device are outright unreachable. The same happens for every iPhone ever released.
On the other hand, iPads are underestimated. Apple claims 10 hours for every model. Early iPads with large batteries on original iOS versions easily surpassed that. More modern, thinner iPads with smaller batteries required lighter usage and even more efficient settings, but the 10 hours were easily obtained, and more than that, too.
The M1 iPads and better are on a funny situation. For light use, they’re extremely efficient. My Air 5 gets like 25 hours of light use. Other users complain that screen-on time on new iPads is bad, but that’s because they push them. T

Anyway we’ve discussed this quite a bit and we’re ending up with different real world observations. We use our devices differently, we have different interpretations of what constitutes factual data and drawing logical conclusions from said data. So all in all it’s been a fun discussion with each of us having our takeaways from it.

I agree. I think this can go in one of three ways:

First of all, I’d like to say that there’s nothing wrong with new information changing what we think. If there were, I’d have to say that it’s okay to think that the world is geocentric, which it obviously isn’t.

-You’ve said it yourself: as Apple improved, your acceptance of prior situations shifted, too. You called 32-bit devices borderline acceptable. Apple improved, then it wasn’t so acceptable. You called early 64-bit devices as acceptable in battery life, too, until they reached the end of their update lifespan and were obliterated. Now you call A12 Bionic devices onwards great, but this may change, too.
So, the first possibility is that this will continue its current course: Apple will improve in the middle of a device’s lifespan, so you will defend their policy. I will continue to say “time will prove me right”, and honestly, time has proven me right so far (32-bit devices were decent until they weren’t, early 64-bit devices were acceptable until they weren’t). But I don’t want to get stuck on this, it’s just one alternative.

-I hope for the second option to be true: The second option is for my policy to become obsolete. The second option is for Apple to finally improve. For Apple to reach the end of a device’s lifespan with very close performance and battery life to the one it had six, seven, eight, or whatever the support number Apple chooses to give to a specific device in the future.
If that happens, maybe I’ll be too fearful to update regardless. But the point is, maybe it gets great enough that I will stop recommending people to stay behind, and maybe, with even more luck, I will update future devices myself.

-The third option is in the middle. The third option is for Apple to kind of fix it but kind of not. To overpower the issue. Batteries large enough and processors powerful enough to largely offset increased power requirements, more concurrency, or however you want to describe this. Maybe we can go from 16 hours of SoT on the future Xʀ, to 15. Or 14.5. On its final version. A minimal impact. For a better descriptor: maybe we can go from 8-9 hours of light use on a 6s... to 7.5 hours on its final version. So what I mean is: maybe the impact will be there, but it be so utterly negligible that it won’t matter.

I’d like to thank you for this interesting discussion. Our disagreement is stern, we’ve both voiced our opinions strongly, but always with respect. Honestly, it’s the best way to do it.

 

[I7guy]

I will reply to this a little later.

I’d love to see them. Remember I have mentioned that from the Xʀ onwards, as of iOS 16, the degradation seems to be quite low, in the realm of 15 to 20%, maybe more with very inefficient usage. But as far as efficient usage goes, it doesn’t seem too awful (unlike, say, the iPhone 6s). I have said that, as of iOS 16, your Xs Max, my Xʀ, the iPhone 11, etc, are totally usable for a moderate user on iOS 16.

I think Apple’s numbers are a little weird because their conditions are probably too perfect to be replicable. Still, Apple’s numbers are confusing, I’ll say why below.

Here I will explain: Apple underestimates iPads and overestimates iPhones. With everything being beyond efficient (iOS 12, light use, very low brightness, full Wi-Fi, extremely efficient settings), the Xʀ barely gets to 16 hours. The iPhone 6s fails to get the 10 hours on Wi-Fi, and Apple’s claims on LTE for that device are outright unreachable. The same happens for every iPhone ever released.
On the other hand, iPads are underestimated. Apple claims 10 hours for every model. Early iPads with large batteries on original iOS versions easily surpassed that. More modern, thinner iPads with smaller batteries required lighter usage and even more efficient settings, but the 10 hours were easily obtained, and more than that, too.
The M1 iPads and better are on a funny situation. For light use, they’re extremely efficient. My Air 5 gets like 25 hours of light use. Other users complain that screen-on time on new iPads is bad, but that’s because they push them. T

I agree. I think this can go in one of three ways:

First of all, I’d like to say that there’s nothing wrong with new information changing what we think. If there were, I’d have to say that it’s okay to think that the world is geocentric, which it obviously isn’t.

-You’ve said it yourself: as Apple improved, your acceptance of prior situations shifted, too. You called 32-bit devices borderline acceptable. Apple improved, then it wasn’t so acceptable. You called early 64-bit devices as acceptable in battery life, too, until they reached the end of their update lifespan and were obliterated. Now you call A12 Bionic devices onwards great, but this may change, too.
So, the first possibility is that this will continue its current course: Apple will improve in the middle of a device’s lifespan, so you will defend their policy. I will continue to say “time will prove me right”, and honestly, time has proven me right so far (32-bit devices were decent until they weren’t, early 64-bit devices were acceptable until they weren’t). But I don’t want to get stuck on this, it’s just one alternative.

-I hope for the second option to be true: The second option is for my policy to become obsolete. The second option is for Apple to finally improve. For Apple to reach the end of a device’s lifespan with very close performance and battery life to the one it had six, seven, eight, or whatever the support number Apple chooses to give to a specific device in the future.
If that happens, maybe I’ll be too fearful to update regardless. But the point is, maybe it gets great enough that I will stop recommending people to stay behind, and maybe, with even more luck, I will update future devices myself.

-The third option is in the middle. The third option is for Apple to kind of fix it but kind of not. To overpower the issue. Batteries large enough and processors powerful enough to largely offset increased power requirements, more concurrency, or however you want to describe this. Maybe we can go from 16 hours of SoT on the future Xʀ, to 15. Or 14.5. On its final version. A minimal impact. For a better descriptor: maybe we can go from 8-9 hours of light use on a 6s... to 7.5 hours on its final version. So what I mean is: maybe the impact will be there, but it be so utterly negligible that it won’t matter.

I’d like to thank you for this interesting discussion. Our disagreement is stern, we’ve both voiced our opinions strongly, but always with respect. Honestly, it’s the best way to do it.

Oh sure, I think the reason your xr exhibits 15% degradation on ios 16 while my xs max exhibits 0% is one of three reasons:
1. Inferior hardware on the Xr
2. Different usage on ios 16 than ios 12
3. Estimates that are less than a wet finger in the air.

I think it’s a combination of all three. Clearly something amiss with your xr if with a new battery your xr battery life tanks 15% on ios 16. My max is totally usable on ios 16. It was also totally usable on ios 12. (Of course I miss 3D Touch) And a new battery brought day battery life to the max.

Also do you have any citations that apple doesn’t estimate battery life correctly on its iphones and iPads. Testing and then lying about the results would be grounds for a massive class action lawsuit, which hasn’t yet happened, so I assume Apples’ estimates are spot on. You may not agree with their testing methodology and that’s fair, but to say they are incorrect…you need to provide some RELIABLE proof. Because my iPad under ideal conditions last almost 10 hours give or take some statistical margin of error.

Of course, we will have to see what ios 17 brings. Regardless, I will updating my iPad to ios 17 late July or so. Updating my max as soon as ios 17 is released…assuming I don’t have my new iphone 15PM yet.

Without any proof all of this becomes anecdotal and opinion, nothing wrong with that as long as it’s not promulgated as fact.

 

[lartola]

Apple treats its customers like kids. It may not be wise to downgrade like it also may not be wise to drive a twenty year old car, which consumes a lot of gas. However adults should have the choice. You also have the choice to go back to your ex girlfriend, if the new one sucks and the old one still wants you.

Not just like kids, like idiots which is even worse.

 

[FeliApple]

Oh sure, I think the reason your xr exhibits 15% degradation on ios 16 while my xs max exhibits 0% is one of three reasons:
1. Inferior hardware on the Xr
2. Different usage on ios 16 than ios 12
3. Estimates that are less than a wet finger in the air.

Your Xs Max does not exhibit 0% degradation. You have presented no numbers to ascertain that, and data points available overwhelmingly show degradation.

I cannot know with precision whether the number is 15% or more for you specifically (inefficient usage and settings would probably see a higher degradation), but it sure as hell isn’t 0%.

I‘m not inclined to take your numbers at face value, considering you refuse to give them and only state it’s 0%. Whenever other users have claimed the same and actually posted the screenshots, their numbers were never as good as they claimed them to be.

As I have shown you once, I am totally open to the idea of me overestimating degradation (I thought the 6s with a new battery on iOS 15 was significantly worse than it actually was), and I have no problem with being wrong, I am wrong about a lot of things, but if you give me nothing, I have no acceptable challenge to what I know to be true. Which is: I’m not sure about the degradation to your specific device, but light, extremely efficient users have shown a 15% degradation for the Xʀ on iOS 16. Inefficient users appear to have around twice as much. This has an obvious reason: efficient users can ameliorate its impact a little through sheer efficiency. Inefficient users put more strain on an already strained processor (compared to iOS 12), so the power requirements are even higher, resulting in further degradation (when compared to efficient users).

I think it’s a combination of all three. Clearly something amiss with your xr if with a new battery your xr battery life tanks 15% on ios 16. My max is totally usable on ios 16. It was also totally usable on ios 12. (Of course I miss 3D Touch) And a new battery brought day battery life to the max.

Totally usable != just as good as iOS 12. Without tracking it with precision, a 15% drop would probably go unnoticed or it would be incorrectly attributed to other variables.

Also do you have any citations that apple doesn’t estimate battery life correctly on its iphones and iPads. Testing and then lying about the results would be grounds for a massive class action lawsuit, which hasn’t yet happened, so I assume Apples’ estimates are spot on. You may not agree with their testing methodology and that’s fair, but to say they are incorrect…you need to provide some RELIABLE proof. Because my iPad under ideal conditions last almost 10 hours give or take some statistical margin of error.

Their testing is good. Their conditions do not translate to the real world. It’s kind of like benchmarks. Apple’s testing is most likely totally replicable should you choose to try (anecdotally, some have tried and Apple wasn’t lying), but battery life is affected by many, many variables, variables which Apple’s testing does not consider.

As far as the real world goes, Apple’s numbers are not replicable.

On iPads, forget about replicating them if updated far enough. My 9.7-inch iPad Pro struggles to get to 11 hours with light use on iOS 12, nevermind getting to Apple’s 10 hours with their testing conditions, and absolutely forget about getting anywhere near close to 10 hours even with light use on iPadOS 16.

Of course, we will have to see what ios 17 brings. Regardless, I will updating my iPad to ios 17 late July or so. Updating my max as soon as ios 17 is released…assuming I don’t have my new iphone 15PM yet.

Without any proof all of this becomes anecdotal and opinion, nothing wrong with that as long as it’s not promulgated as fact.

My Xʀ… will remain on iOS 12 and my Air 5 will remain on iPadOS 15, regardless of what Apple includes on their updates, until they choose to guarantee perfection. As it will not happen, iOS 12 and iPadOS 15 it is.

You‘ve already acknowledged (after initially denying it) than both 32-bit and early 64-bit devices were significantly affected by updates. I wonder how many updates you need to change it to “the iPhone 13 onwards show no degradation“. I commend you for recognizing that you were wrong though, a lot of people can’t do that.

 

[I7guy]

Your Xs Max does not exhibit 0% degradation. You have presented no numbers to ascertain that, and data points available overwhelmingly show degradation.

You’re right about the max not exhibiting 0% degradation. It could be exciting some positive amount of improvement. You dont know and can’t assume usage of MY phone. There are no data points to prove it.

I cannot know with precision whether the number is 15% or more for you specifically (inefficient usage and settings would probably see a higher degradation), but it sure as hell isn’t 0%.

I‘m not inclined to take your numbers at face value, considering you refuse to give them and only state it’s 0%. Whenever other users have claimed the same and actually posted the screenshots, their numbers were never as good as they claimed them to be.

As I’m not inclined to take your numbers at face value since there are no highly valued citations behind them. Think it’s called an impasse.

As I have shown you once, I am totally open to the idea of me overestimating degradation (I thought the 6s with a new battery on iOS 15 was significantly worse than it actually was), and I have no problem with being wrong, I am wrong about a lot of things, but if you give me nothing, I have no acceptable challenge to what I know to be true. Which is: I’m not sure about the degradation to your specific device, but light, extremely efficient users have shown a 15% degradation for the Xʀ on iOS 16. Inefficient users appear to have around twice as much. This has an obvious reason: efficient users can ameliorate its impact a little through sheer efficiency. Inefficient users put more strain on an already strained processor (compared to iOS 12), so the power requirements are even higher, resulting in further degradation (when compared to efficient users).

Totally usable != just as good as iOS 12. Without tracking it with precision, a 15% drop would probably go unnoticed or it would be incorrectly attributed to other variables.

Their testing is good. Their conditions do not translate to the real world. It’s kind of like benchmarks. Apple’s testing is most likely totally replicable should you choose to try (anecdotally, some have tried and Apple wasn’t lying), but battery life is affected by many, many variables, variables which Apple’s testing does not consider.

As far as the real world goes, Apple’s numbers are not replicable.

On iPads, forget about replicating them if updated far enough. My 9.7-inch iPad Pro struggles to get to 11 hours with light use on iOS 12, nevermind getting to Apple’s 10 hours with their testing conditions, and absolutely forget about getting anywhere near close to 10 hours even with light use on iPadOS 16.

My Xʀ… will remain on iOS 12 and my Air 5 will remain on iPadOS 15, regardless of what Apple includes on their updates, until they choose to guarantee perfection. As it will not happen, iOS 12 and iPadOS 15 it is.

You‘ve already acknowledged (after initially denying it) than both 32-bit and early 64-bit devices were significantly affected by updates. I wonder how many updates you need to change it to “the iPhone 13 onwards show no degradation“. I commend you for recognizing that you were wrong though, a lot of people can’t do that.

I didn’t think we were discussing 32 but devices since there is overwhelming anecdotal evidence that 32 bit devices didnt stand the test of time. But you improperly took that to mean there were no performance degradations for 32 but devices such as the iPad 2 on iOS 9. Usable yes, same as the roll out iOS version? No. Opposite to my Xs max where on average I am getting the same usage and battery life as day 1. Note: that’s kn average since the new battery. A large amount of verbiage deeply rooted in anecdotal evidence and opinions won’t change that. When it comes down to each one’s opinion of the veracity of opinions on the others comments; doesn’t seem like there is any more to say on this.

 

[FeliApple]

You’re right about the max not exhibiting 0% degradation. It could be exciting some positive amount of improvement. You dont know and can’t assume usage of MY phone. There are no data points to prove it.

There’s overwhelming anecdotal evidence showing the Xs Max isn’t as good as it was on iOS 12.

As I’m not inclined to take your numbers at face value since there are no highly valued citations behind them. Think it’s called an impasse.

My numbers have been posted clearly, at least.

I didn’t think we were discussing 32 but devices since there is overwhelming anecdotal evidence that 32 bit devices didnt stand the test of time. But you improperly took that to mean there were no performance degradations for 32 but devices such as the iPad 2 on iOS 9. Usable yes, same as the roll out iOS version? No. Opposite to my Xs max where on average I am getting the same usage and battery life as day 1. Note: that’s kn average since the new battery. A large amount of verbiage deeply rooted in anecdotal evidence and opinions won’t change that. When it comes down to each one’s opinion of the veracity of opinions on the others comments; doesn’t seem like there is any more to say on this.

I won’t repeat your Xs Max comment, and this is not a criticism but a statement: I am honestly surprised with your tolerance. If you call a 32-bit on iOS 9 usable, well, there’s nothing else to say. Usable is completely subjective, and again, I’m not criticising that; you’re free to call anything usable if you really think it is. I do think it shows that your tolerance levels are astronomically high; I freely admit that I am a polar opposite.

My 9.7-inch iPad Pro is almost like-new in terms of performance on iOS 12 after Apple forced me out of iOS 9, but the degradation - especially in the fact that it exhibits very infrequent keyboard lag, which wasn’t there before - in terms of performance and - especially - battery life, is apparent. And even though I think my iPad’s performance is good, I know it could be even better. As far as battery life goes, the impact and the degradation has been more pronounced, and I’d call it tolerable. It’s significantly worse than it was on iOS 9, but not too bad so as to call it unusable. Tolerable. Good enough for someone like me to like the device regardless, while acknowledging its impact. I am confident enough to say that you probably wouldn’t notice this degradation, because (and I don’t think this is controversial) our expectations are different. Not right or wrong: just different. I’d call a 32-bit device on iOS 9 “unusable, and irreversibly obliterated by Apple’s malware. So much so that I don’t want to use one ever again, and I’d sell mine or throw it in a drawer so it never sees the light of day, until I can freely downgrade”. The difference is starkly apparent. I don’t think either of those comments are right or wrong: the difference, I think, stems from wildly different expectations. I think your tolerance is insanely high, and you think I’m hyperbolic. Polar opposites on this aspect. Frankly? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.

 

[I7guy]

There’s overwhelming anecdotal evidence showing the Xs Max isn’t as good as it was on iOS 12.

We have very different definitions of "overwhelming anecdotal evidence" Here's my contribution to anecdotal evidence... and if you listen to what the commenter states there is some normality in deviations.

My numbers have been posted clearly, at least.

No not clearly, not factual. Anecdotal based. Nothing wrong with that, but it's an opinion not a fact.

I won’t repeat your Xs Max comment, and this is not a criticism but a statement: I am honestly surprised with your tolerance. If you call a 32-bit on iOS 9 usable, well, there’s nothing else to say. Usable is completely subjective, and again, I’m not criticising that; you’re free to call anything usable if you really think it is. I do think it shows that your tolerance levels are astronomically high; I freely admit that I am a polar opposite.

I've been clear about my xs max equivalent or similar battery life and same performance as day 1. However something is either usable or not. You may not like the performance, but the ipad 2 is usable. That is not to say it is equivalent or similar to day 1.

My 9.7-inch iPad Pro is almost like-new in terms of performance on iOS 12 after Apple forced me out of iOS 9, but the degradation - especially in the fact that it exhibits very infrequent keyboard lag, which wasn’t there before - in terms of performance and - especially - battery life, is apparent. And even though I think my iPad’s performance is good, I know it could be even better. As far as battery life goes, the impact and the degradation has been more pronounced, and I’d call it tolerable. It’s significantly worse than it was on iOS 9, but not too bad so as to call it unusable. Tolerable. Good enough for someone like me to like the device regardless, while acknowledging its impact. I am confident enough to say that you probably wouldn’t notice this degradation, because (and I don’t think this is controversial) our expectations are different. Not right or wrong: just different. I’d call a 32-bit device on iOS 9 “unusable, and irreversibly obliterated by Apple’s malware. So much so that I don’t want to use one ever again, and I’d sell mine or throw it in a drawer so it never sees the light of day, until I can freely downgrade”. The difference is starkly apparent. I don’t think either of those comments are right or wrong: the difference, I think, stems from wildly different expectations. I think your tolerance is insanely high, and you think I’m hyperbolic. Polar opposites on this aspect. Frankly? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.

My ipad on ipados 16 runs as expected. I can't say a computing device is perfect, nothing is. But ios 16 for all of the features is unexpectedly good for older devices at least going back to the max.

 

[FeliApple]

We have very different definitions of "overwhelming anecdotal evidence" Here's my contribution to anecdotal evidence... and if you listen to what the commenter states there is some normality in deviations.

I’ve repeatedly stated that there is normality in deviations, but a comparison of a non-real-world scenario between different iPhones on the same iOS versions doesn’t tell me much.

No not clearly, not factual. Anecdotal based. Nothing wrong with that, but it's an opinion not a fact.

I've been clear about my xs max equivalent or similar battery life and same performance as day 1. However something is either usable or not. You may not like the performance, but the ipad 2 is usable. That is not to say it is equivalent or similar to day 1.

No, usable is subjective. Anything is usable with enough patience unless it cannot boot. You know what I mean, you’re being deliberately obtuse, I think.

You can call a device that takes 40 seconds to open settings usable, as in “it can be used”, but who would want to use that?

My ipad on ipados 16 runs as expected. I can't say a computing device is perfect, nothing is. But ios 16 for all of the features is unexpectedly good for older devices at least going back to the max.

This is where I‘m a little confused. “iOS 16 is good for all of the features”, implies “I am okay with reduced performance and battery life in exchange for app compatibility and battery life”, which is what I’ve been saying, and not “There is no impact”, as you’ve been saying.

 

[I7guy]

I’ve repeatedly stated that there is normality in deviations, but a comparison of a non-real-world scenario between different iPhones on the same iOS versions doesn’t tell me much.

No, usable is subjective. Anything is usable with enough patience unless it cannot boot. You know what I mean, you’re being deliberately obtuse, I think.

You can call a device that takes 40 seconds to open settings usable, as in “it can be used”, but who would want to use that?

This is where I‘m a little confused. “iOS 16 is good for all of the features”, implies “I am okay with reduced performance and battery life in exchange for app compatibility and battery life”, which is what I’ve been saying, and not “There is no impact”, as you’ve been saying.

Not to be pedantic but I am able to use my iPad 2. Hence it is usable. Maybe not likeable useable, but useable.

Where you are using the word “I” in the last paragraph above you are referring to feliapple. Because stop trolling me and putting word in my mouth: let me be clear: my Xs max and iPad do not exhibit whatever slowdown, performance degradation, battery life you speak of. There is no, little, within statistical normalities, impact to my devices which includes my new battery max and my iPad. There is nothing wrong with the option of getting more functionality for less battery life eg watching YouTube PIP while surfing the web. Which you can’t do on iOS 12. I can have more fun on my phone per watt hour of battery.

 

[cosmichobo]

I will reply to this a little later.

Just put the guy on ignore and move on with your life. Nothing you say will make any difference to anything he says or does.