Apple Stops Signing iOS 16.3.1 to Prevent Downgrading

[I7guy]

I like to be clear on this. Apple sabotaged, caused forced obsolescence, and obliterated my A9 on iOS 9 combo, maliciously, through their malware called iOS updates. There’s no defense possible for this specific case. I told you and showed you how the issue appeared, I’m interested in this: how would you defend it? I’m interested as you are saying that my description - which is the truth - is preposterous.

It's a bug, imo, but the above is a littany of hyperbolic terms.

Before you say a bug, Apple ignored the issue, so they are at complete fault even if it was initially unintentional. Once it appeared, their refusal to do anything (even acknowledge it!) is deliberate. Apple is bricking devices and staying quiet.

Apple doesn't always every bug in the timeframe people want. So okay they are at fault. Now what? Does it bring back your preferred IOS version? Can you downgrade? Now that we confirmed Apple is at fault for not fixing a bug in a timeframe you wanted, what now?

Imagine if Apple were to brick all iPhone 14s and were to stay quiet.

I guess it could happen. There is a non-zero probability of this happening. We just don't know the probability.

I did not install it, so they forced it. Like I said, very different from intentional and consensual iOS updates.

As far as the A9 and the iPhone 6s go I was actually somewhat praising Apple. While battery life is abhorrent, it got the most iOS updates ever, and it is usable, performance-wise. That wasn’t the case earlier, even if you consider the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus, both of which were RAM-starved, the Plus being the best example.

As I said earlier: I’ll always acknowledge the good things, even if my criticism is... firm, to say the least.

All of this is true barring the final sentence: if not updated, battery health is irrelevant.

Doesn't matter what the circumstance, you are now running a version of ios that you can't downgrade from. And battery life is always relevant, which is why when I got my xs max and was commuting I carried a battery pack. Did not want to trust that the battery would last a full 12 hour day.

Actually, this is a little more believable. All iPads since the 5th-gen were released with older chipsets, and they fare a lot better battery-life wise. My inclination is to explain it through sheer battery size: while iPhones with the same processors are abhorrent, iPads have far larger batteries, which may offset Apple’s poor optimisation a little.

Is it at all possible for you to upload a screenshot of the iPad’s battery life? Would be interesting to see.

For whatever’s worth, I’ve managed 13.5 hours on a 6th-gen iPad on iOS 12. That matches what I’d expect from a 9.7-inch iPad on an original iOS version, but like I said, this is the interesting part: The A10 is two major versions beyond the original. In no world (including this one), does an A10 iPhone get those great results on iOS 12. Base iPads have fared a lot better than their iPhone-chipset counterparts. That’s why I’m interested in your results.

I don't measure screen time or battery life. I have two metrics: good (or good enough) or not good. My wet finger in the air gives me that information. If I recall I'll upload a screen shot. But this type of discussion is better suited to the ipad forum.

 

[FeliApple]

It's a bug, imo, but the above is a littany of hyperbolic terms.

It’s the truth!

Apple doesn't always every bug in the timeframe people want. So okay they are at fault. Now what? Does it bring back your preferred IOS version? Can you downgrade? Now that we confirmed Apple is at fault for not fixing a bug in a timeframe you wanted, what now?

Now I keep iOS 12. Not perfect, not abhorrent. I wish Apple allowed for a better solution, but they don’t.

I’ve been clear from the beginning about the fact that this has no solution now. Even if Apple fixed it now, it’s too late.

I guess it could happen. There is a non-zero probability of this happening. We just don't know the probability.

It could happen, Apple would fix it. Immediately. Unlike A9 on iOS 9.

And honestly, I wouldn’t even call this speculation: it’s obvious.

I mean, I reckon that Apple would do nothing if it affected iPhone 11 users on iOS 13. It’s clear they don’t care.

In fact, you pointed me to a thread the other day: they’re forcibly removing functionality from iOS 11, which means that the iPhone X, 8, and 8+ have suffered the same forced and planned obsolescence that my devices did. I have no such device, but for their sake, I hope all A11 Bionic users updated to iOS 12.

Someone with the same approach as me would’ve left it on iOS 11, only for it to be severely affected 5 years later, for no reason. If I had an iPhone X, it would be on iOS 11, just like my Xʀ is on iOS 12.

“You want the App Store on the iPhone X? Obliterate the device through our malware” - Apple

Going back to your previous comment, it’s very clear they don’t care about people who stay behind on iOS updates, and we aren’t enough in numbers to make noise.

It’s clear that people in general have accepted the status quo. Which is sad on the one hand, but on the other hand, I have accepted it too. After all, I bought the Xʀ after Apple did what they did. The difference is that people just willingly tolerate iOS updates, and I don’t, and I am extremely critical of Apple on this issue. I do everything I can to circumvent Apple’s policy.

I’ve seen this a million times: “The iPhone 6s’ battery life is unusable? Well, what do you expect? It’s nearly 8 years old”. My 6s is nearly 7 years old and battery life is like-new. It doesn’t have to be like that, but seemingly people have accepted it as a “necessary evil”. I’m nobody to say they are wrong to accept whatever they like, but it’s a little sad. Simply because I know, and I have repeatedly proved, that just because a device is old it doesn’t mean it has to have poor performance and battery life.

Doesn't matter what the circumstance, you are now running a version of ios that you can't downgrade from. And battery life is always relevant, which is why when I got my xs max and was commuting I carried a battery pack. Did not want to trust that the battery would last a full 12 hour day.

I meant that battery health isn’t an indicator of battery life.

I don't measure screen time or battery life. I have two metrics: good (or good enough) or not good. My wet finger in the air gives me that information. If I recall I'll upload a screen shot. But this type of discussion is better suited to the ipad forum.

Which perfectly explains why you’re okay with Apple obliterating battery life through iOS updates: as long as it lasts you the day, you’re fine with it. If your screen-on time requirements are low enough, there is a LOT of breathing room for Apple to decrease battery life through updates.

Honestly... your way is arguably more peaceful. You get the advantages that updating has and you don’t care about the drawbacks until it gets awful enough.
I like my devices to be perfect, which gives a lot less leeway for any issues. But I like it like this. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with either of our approaches, to be honest.

Like I once said: if we were all the same, it would be very boring.

I called your way more peaceful, because of the following (correct me if I am wrong): When my iPad was initially deactivated by Apple it was still on iOS 9. The device booted on iOS 9, but it hit an activation screen exactly like the one you get with the initial setup. Had you encountered the issue, resolving it would have taken you 5 minutes. Hit update on iTunes, done.

I spent HOURS throughout an entire week. Trying and re-trying, asking for help everywhere, I even tried a hacking tool by the jailbreak community (which failed).
I would’ve kept trying, but there was one reason for which I stopped (and I’m glad I did): iPadOS 13. I was very close to the release date, and I had no more time. I needed to avoid iPadOS 13, so on iOS 12’s last day, I updated to it. A good decision, because reports of the 1st-gen iPad Pros on iPadOS 13 with regards to everything (screen-on time, Standby time, and performance) are a LOT worse than on iOS 12. Some people here have called it “the beginning of the debacle”, as it was a lot better before. I do not regret that decision. I wish it didn’t come to that, but once it did, it was the best I could do.

 

[I7guy]

It’s the truth!

Now I keep iOS 12. Not perfect, not abhorrent. I wish Apple allowed for a better solution, but they don’t.

I’ve been clear from the beginning about the fact that this has no solution now. Even if Apple fixed it now, it’s too late.

It could happen, Apple would fix it. Immediately. Unlike A9 on iOS 9.

And honestly, I wouldn’t even call this speculation: it’s obvious.

I mean, I reckon that Apple would do nothing if it affected iPhone 11 users on iOS 13. It’s clear they don’t care.

In fact, you pointed me to a thread the other day: they’re forcibly removing functionality from iOS 11, which means that the iPhone X, 8, and 8+ have suffered the same forced and planned obsolescence that my devices did. I have no such device, but for their sake, I hope all A11 Bionic users updated to iOS 12.

Someone with the same approach as me would’ve left it on iOS 11, only for it to be severely affected 5 years later, for no reason. If I had an iPhone X, it would be on iOS 11, just like my Xʀ is on iOS 12.

“You want the App Store on the iPhone X? Obliterate the device through our malware” - Apple

Going back to your previous comment, it’s very clear they don’t care about people who stay behind on iOS updates, and we aren’t enough in numbers to make noise.

It’s clear that people in general have accepted the status quo. Which is sad on the one hand, but on the other hand, I have accepted it too. After all, I bought the Xʀ after Apple did what they did. The difference is that people just willingly tolerate iOS updates, and I don’t, and I am extremely critical of Apple on this issue. I do everything I can to circumvent Apple’s policy.

I’ve seen this a million times: “The iPhone 6s’ battery life is unusable? Well, what do you expect? It’s nearly 8 years old”. My 6s is nearly 7 years old and battery life is like-new. It doesn’t have to be like that, but seemingly people have accepted it as a “necessary evil”. I’m nobody to say they are wrong to accept whatever they like, but it’s a little sad. Simply because I know, and I have repeatedly proved, that just because a device is old it doesn’t mean it has to have poor performance and battery life.

I meant that battery health isn’t an indicator of battery life.

Which perfectly explains why you’re okay with Apple obliterating battery life through iOS updates: as long as it lasts you the day, you’re fine with it. If your screen-on time requirements are low enough, there is a LOT of breathing room for Apple to decrease battery life through updates.

Honestly... your way is arguably more peaceful. You get the advantages that updating has and you don’t care about the drawbacks until it gets awful enough.
I like my devices to be perfect, which gives a lot less leeway for any issues. But I like it like this. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with either of our approaches, to be honest.

Like I once said: if we were all the same, it would be very boring.

I called your way more peaceful, because of the following (correct me if I am wrong): When my iPad was initially deactivated by Apple it was still on iOS 9. The device booted on iOS 9, but it hit an activation screen exactly like the one you get with the initial setup. Had you encountered the issue, resolving it would have taken you 5 minutes. Hit update on iTunes, done.

I spent HOURS throughout an entire week. Trying and re-trying, asking for help everywhere, I even tried a hacking tool by the jailbreak community (which failed).
I would’ve kept trying, but there was one reason for which I stopped (and I’m glad I did): iPadOS 13. I was very close to the release date, and I had no more time. I needed to avoid iPadOS 13, so on iOS 12’s last day, I updated to it. A good decision, because reports of the 1st-gen iPad Pros on iPadOS 13 with regards to everything (screen-on time, Standby time, and performance) are a LOT worse than on iOS 12. Some people here have called it “the beginning of the debacle”, as it was a lot better before. I do not regret that decision. I wish it didn’t come to that, but once it did, it was the best I could do.

Apple routinely stops signing old ios versions. This is not new news by any stretch of the imagination. For people like yourself who are fervent believers of newer versions of ios is bad and want to stay on an old version -- are living on borrowed time. Any glitch whatsover that forces reactivation will force you to a newer ios version. Call it what you want - this is not new Apple behavior. Apple won't support you and as you found out, without being signed it's difficult/impossible to install. And if you don't like it or causes much grief, you should consider if iphones are for you. There is nothing forcing you to update, but as I said earlier - you are living on borrowed time.

The other thing you should consider is not everybody believes future ios versions "obliterate" battery life. That is to say is not impossible for an initial release or some point release to potentially have bad battery life that does get fixed, but over time I've found with my devices that battery life (which is the ability to keep the phone powered on) is consistent from version to version, release to release. Battery health decreases with age, that is a fact. Battery health decreases faster the more you use it, the more abuse the battery gets.

Assuming Apple doesn't change it's stance regarding older ios versions - 7ish+ years from now, those who decide to stay on ios 16 with their iphone 14 will find ios 16 is no longer supported. One glitch requiring activation and phone is a brick. If today the activation went awry Apple would fix it because it's a supported phone on a supported ios version. Not so with your 6s on ios 10.

I'm not okay with Apple "obliterating" battery life, I'd not be a happy camper if that was actually happening. But battery life and performance on my current device, past devices and ipads are consistent as release (My xs max with a new battery gave it day 1 characteristics of battery life). Please don't intimate that I am not aware and therefore blissfully ignorant - that's passive/aggressive and trolling - at the same time.

Your 6s has great battery life but it can't do a whole lot. Sure if you can listen to Apple music to 10 hours you're happy and that's your right. But claiming the performance is like new, when it can't browse the web and is limited in capability is false advertising.

Ios 16.3.1 is a poster child for the rational for why Apple won't allow downgrading. Yes Apple wants people to move forward and doesn't support those who stay on an ios version that is no longer signed. Complaining about it on forums such as this won't change Apple's mind.

 

[FeliApple]

Apple routinely stops signing old ios versions. This is not new news by any stretch of the imagination. For people like yourself who are fervent believers of newer versions of ios is bad and want to stay on an old version -- are living on borrowed time. Any glitch whatsover that forces reactivation will force you to a newer ios version. Call it what you want - this is not new Apple behavior. Apple won't support you and as you found out, without being signed it's difficult/impossible to install. And if you don't like it or causes much grief, you should consider if iphones are for you. There is nothing forcing you to update, but as I said earlier - you are living on borrowed time.

I think the position isn’t so tenuous. After all, thousands do what I do and frequently have older devices on older iOS versions for years.

While I agree it is somewhat fragile, calling it “borrowed time” is too much, in my opinion, but yes, you’re right in that it has multiple points of failure.

Don’t get me wrong: should this happen many more times I’d leave iOS immediately.

The other thing you should consider is not everybody believes future ios versions "obliterate" battery life. That is to say is not impossible for an initial release or some point release to potentially have bad battery life that does get fixed, but over time I've found with my devices that battery life (which is the ability to keep the phone powered on) is consistent from version to version, release to release. Battery health decreases with age, that is a fact. Battery health decreases faster the more you use it, the more abuse the battery gets.

I think I’ve shown strong arguments at battery health’s irrelevance when determining battery life.

Assuming Apple doesn't change it's stance regarding older ios versions - 7ish+ years from now, those who decide to stay on ios 16 with their iphone 14 will find ios 16 is no longer supported. One glitch requiring activation and phone is a brick. If today the activation went awry Apple would fix it because it's a supported phone on a supported ios version. Not so with your 6s on ios 10.

Agreed. This only further solidifies my point: Apple forces malware onto their own devices and they don’t care. I wish I knew why.

I'm not okay with Apple "obliterating" battery life, I'd not be a happy camper if that was actually happening. But battery life and performance on my current device, past devices and ipads are consistent as release (My xs max with a new battery gave it day 1 characteristics of battery life). Please don't intimate that I am not aware and therefore blissfully ignorant - that's passive/aggressive and trolling - at the same time.

Our positions here are irreconcilable.

Your 6s has great battery life but it can't do a whole lot. Sure if you can listen to Apple music to 10 hours you're happy and that's your right. But claiming the performance is like new, when it can't browse the web and is limited in capability is false advertising.

It isn’t. Capabilities != performance.

That said, I agree about the capability loss. I have to fight Apple’s malware, and it’s the only way I have. I wish it weren’t.

Ios 16.3.1 is a poster child for the rational for why Apple won't allow downgrading. Yes Apple wants people to move forward and doesn't support those who stay on an ios version that is no longer signed. Complaining about it on forums such as this won't change Apple's mind.

Agreed. It won’t stop me from complaining, though. Too many voices defend Apple’s abhorrent stance. I have to balance it a little.

 

[I7guy]

I think the position isn’t so tenuous. After all, thousands do what I do and frequently have older devices on older iOS versions for years.

While I agree it is somewhat fragile, calling it “borrowed time” is too much, in my opinion, but yes, you’re right in that it has multiple points of failure.

Don’t get me wrong: should this happen many more times I’d leave iOS immediately.

It is probable that millions, tens of millions and hundreds of millions upgrade, leaving those who cling to prior unsupported versions the minority.

I think I’ve shown strong arguments at battery health’s irrelevance when determining battery life.

No, because the there are a set of conditions wrapped around d your “proof”. But if that is your belief go for it.

Agreed. This only further solidifies my point: Apple forces malware onto their own devices and they don’t care. I wish I knew why.

Yes and it’s something you have to decide for yourself if android should be your preferred operating system. I can’t for the life of me figure out why you would stay with a vendor who injects malware. Makes no sense.

Our positions here are irreconcilable.

Yep.

It isn’t. Capabilities != performance.

Capabilities = Battery life.

That said, I agree about the capability loss. I have to fight Apple’s malware, and it’s the only way I have. I wish it weren’t.

Agreed. It won’t stop me from complaining, though. Too many voices defend Apple’s abhorrent stance. I have to balance it a little.

Well I defend apples right to sell their products the way they want and you to buy their products if you like them. If you don’t then move on.

 

[FeliApple]

It is probable that millions, tens of millions and hundreds of millions upgrade, leaving those who cling to prior unsupported versions the minority.

I’d call this certain. Apple’s own numbers show that we are. I have always stated this. We are an absolute minority, sadly.

No, because the there are a set of conditions wrapped around d your “proof”. But if that is your belief go for it.

Another irreconcilable position. Of course, nobody knows this is the case because everyone updates, so how could they?

Yes and it’s something you have to decide for yourself if android should be your preferred operating system. I can’t for the life of me figure out why you would stay with a vendor who injects malware. Makes no sense.

Like I said, my red line is Apple forcing updates everywhere. I can accept that A9 issue on iOS 9 as a one-off. As long as it remains that: a one-off.

I think I’ve been clear on this: I am happy with my approach. It works for me. I have accepted the drawbacks of staying behind and I have embraced the advantages. There’s no reason for me to switch. You might, rightfully, ask: then why do you talk about this? Well, because my solution isn’t perfect. Apple could very easily make it perfect. It’s wrong that they don’t. So I’m going to talk about it.

Yep.

Capabilities = Battery life.

If capabilities is battery life, an updated device has none, and my 6s on iOS 10 is utter perfection.

By capabilities, I mean “things the device can do”, which undeniably decrease the more outdated I am.

Well I defend apples right to sell their products the way they want and you to buy their products if you like them. If you don’t then move on.

A little tenuous, but okay. I like them, when they work properly. The only way to do that is to stay behind on iOS updates: like I said, it’s an imperfect solution, but I’m happy with it.

 

[I7guy]

I’d call this certain. Apple’s own numbers show that we are. I have always stated this. We are an absolute minority, sadly.

Another irreconcilable position. Of course, nobody knows this is the case because everyone updates, so how could they?

Wait, what? Two anonymous posters on the internet disagree about something? Unheard of.

Like I said, my red line is Apple forcing updates everywhere. I can accept that A9 issue on iOS 9 as a one-off. As long as it remains that: a one-off.

People who stay behind supported iOS versions will always be behind the 8-ball.

I think I’ve been clear on this: I am happy with my approach. It works for me. I have accepted the drawbacks of staying behind and I have embraced the advantages. There’s no reason for me to switch. You might, rightfully, ask: then why do you talk about this? Well, because my solution isn’t perfect. Apple could very easily make it perfect. It’s wrong that they don’t. So I’m going to talk about it.

It’s apples’ business model. They aren’t (probably) going to change.

If capabilities is battery life, an updated device has none, and my 6s on iOS 10 is utter perfection.

This is incorrect as proven by my Xs max on iOS 16 with a new battery.

By capabilities, I mean “things the device can do”, which undeniably decrease the more outdated I am.

But you’re happy your phone can do less and less as long as what the phone is capable of is perfect battery life. To me makes no sense.

A little tenuous, but okay. I like them, when they work properly. The only way to do that is to stay behind on iOS updates: like I said, it’s an imperfect solution, but I’m happy with it.

 

[FeliApple]

Wait, what? Two anonymous posters on the internet disagree about something? Unheard of.

A respectful conversation is always positive!

People who stay behind supported iOS versions will always be behind the 8-ball.

I’d rather be behind the 8-ball than crushed by it.

It’s apples’ business model. They aren’t (probably) going to change.

Agreed

But you’re happy your phone can do less and less as long as what the phone is capable of is perfect battery life. To me makes no sense.

And performance, but yes. It’s not like I’ve been affected by any compatibility issues on iOS 12 as of now. As long as that doesn’t happen, it’s fine.

 

[I7guy]

A respectful conversation is always positive!

I’d rather be behind the 8-ball than crushed by it.

Seems like you are crushed by it. As too much time, effort re being expense to maintain something so fleeting.

Agreed

And performance, but yes. It’s not like I’ve been affected by any compatibility issues on iOS 12 as of now. As long as that doesn’t happen, it’s fine.

With iOS 17 coming out your xr on iOS 12 slips slowly into the abyss.

 

[FeliApple]

Seems like you are crushed by it. As too much time, effort re being expense to maintain something so fleeting.

Why do you call it fleeting?

And on the contrary, it requires no effort! The only reason why the A9 on iOS 9 issue took a little while was first and foremost because Apple obliterated it, it required no effort before Apple woke up one day and said “let’s force our malware into every A9 device on iOS 9 remaining”

The Xʀ on iOS 12 requires 0 upkeep!

In fact, you spend more time updating your devices, because I spend 0 seconds maintaining mine.

With iOS 17 coming out your xr on iOS 12 slips slowly into the abyss.

Yeah, iOS 12 will be progressively and increasingly affected, but I wish I could do something about that. I’ve accepted this reality.

 

[cosmichobo]

Further I don’t see how “apple is obsessed with squeezing every penny out of the device”. Specific examples?

Are you familiar with YouTuber Hugh Jeffreys?

Here's one example from his videos:

The iPhone 7's home button costs $10, but you can't replace it alone because the phone wont recognise the button without an entire new screen, which costs over $100.

When the iPhone 7 was new, this was feasible given the cost of the phone, but now they are older, the cost to "fix" the home button is more than what you pay for a second hand phone - meaning the device goes to ewaste and you have to buy a new phone - all for the sake of what should only be a $10 part.

This forced synchronisation of parts has been intensified with newer iPhones, such that replacing components results in features being removed. Face ID, brightness control, yadda yadda yadda - even when replaced with genuine Apple parts, requires Apple themselves to sanction the replacement, which they wont do unless you're an authorised repairer (or buy the parts / rent the machines via their DIY service).

So how long will it be now before these newer gen iPhones also become ewaste, with their owners forced to buy something new instead of being able to repair it?

That's what I'm referring to with Apple squeezing every penny, along with also pushing up their pricing on new products.

 

[I7guy]

Are you familiar with YouTuber Hugh Jeffreys?

No.

Here's one example from his videos:

The iPhone 7's home button costs $10, but you can't replace it alone because the phone wont recognise the button without an entire new screen, which costs over $100.

When the iPhone 7 was new, this was feasible given the cost of the phone, but now they are older, the cost to "fix" the home button is more than what you pay for a second hand phone - meaning the device goes to ewaste and you have to buy a new phone - all for the sake of what should only be a $10 part.

This forced synchronisation of parts has been intensified with newer iPhones, such that replacing components results in features being removed. Face ID, brightness control, yadda yadda yadda - even when replaced with genuine Apple parts, requires Apple themselves to sanction the replacement, which they wont do unless you're an authorised repairer (or buy the parts / rent the machines via their DIY service).

So how long will it be now before these newer gen iPhones also become ewaste, with their owners forced to buy something new instead of being able to repair it?

That's what I'm referring to with Apple squeezing every penny, along with also pushing up their pricing on new products.

What you call squeezing every penny sounds like apple is ensuring that phones get replaced to their spec. I’m sure apple has or had specific reasons why phones were engineered in such a manner—-which unlike how people here think (or YouTubers with an eye toward google $$$); wasn’t to increase revenue.

 

[FeliApple]

Are you familiar with YouTuber Hugh Jeffreys?

Here's one example from his videos:

The iPhone 7's home button costs $10, but you can't replace it alone because the phone wont recognise the button without an entire new screen, which costs over $100.

When the iPhone 7 was new, this was feasible given the cost of the phone, but now they are older, the cost to "fix" the home button is more than what you pay for a second hand phone - meaning the device goes to ewaste and you have to buy a new phone - all for the sake of what should only be a $10 part.

This forced synchronisation of parts has been intensified with newer iPhones, such that replacing components results in features being removed. Face ID, brightness control, yadda yadda yadda - even when replaced with genuine Apple parts, requires Apple themselves to sanction the replacement, which they wont do unless you're an authorised repairer (or buy the parts / rent the machines via their DIY service).

So how long will it be now before these newer gen iPhones also become ewaste, with their owners forced to buy something new instead of being able to repair it?

That's what I'm referring to with Apple squeezing every penny, along with also pushing up their pricing on new products.

I can understand Apple not allowing third-party hardware replacements, because quality can be very varied, and they don’t want that headache.

This is entirely different from disallowing downgrades: in this case, it’s their own software. I’m not asking for Apple to allow me to run Android... I want to run an iOS version that isn’t malware.

That said, some observations on this:

-Apple’s pricing and policy isn’t good: like they refuse to replace a $10 home button, they replace the entire top case on MacBooks when they want to replace the battery. They replace entire assemblies, which fine, whatever, but the issue is that that carries a massive premium in pricing. You cannot acceptably fix a $10 issue charging 10 times as much because “muh policy”.

-On battery replacements: I am lucky in that battery health is irrelevant if the device isn’t updated. If I were to have to replace batteries (and if I wanted to do it through Apple because I want it to be through the manufacturer itself, makes sense, right?), Apple would grab my 6s on iOS 10 (to give an example), and if they were to break the pull tabs on the battery... they replace the entire phone. Which would be obliterated by iOS 15.

Another more obvious example is iPads: Apple doesn’t replace the battery, they replace the entire device with refurbished units.
Again, I’m lucky battery health is irrelevant, because if it weren’t, I’d be forced to get a refurbished model, and as Apple doesn’t allow downgrading, well, it would be on iPadOS 16. No thank you.

 

[I7guy]

I can understand Apple not allowing third-party hardware replacements, because quality can be very varied, and they don’t want that headache.

This is entirely different from disallowing downgrades: in this case, it’s their own software. I’m not asking for Apple to allow me to run Android... I want to run an iOS version that isn’t malware.

That said, some observations on this:

-Apple’s pricing and policy isn’t good: like they refuse to replace a $10 home button, they replace the entire top case on MacBooks when they want to replace the battery. They replace entire assemblies, which fine, whatever, but the issue is that that carries a massive premium in pricing. You cannot acceptably fix a $10 issue charging 10 times as much because “muh policy”.

-On battery replacements: I am lucky in that battery health is irrelevant if the device isn’t updated. If I were to have to replace batteries (and if I wanted to do it through Apple because I want it to be through the manufacturer itself, makes sense, right?), Apple would grab my 6s on iOS 10 (to give an example), and if they were to break the pull tabs on the battery... they replace the entire phone. Which would be obliterated by iOS 15.

Another more obvious example is iPads: Apple doesn’t replace the battery, they replace the entire device with refurbished units.
Again, I’m lucky battery health is irrelevant, because if it weren’t, I’d be forced to get a refurbished model, and as Apple doesn’t allow downgrading, well, it would be on iPadOS 16. No thank you.

iOS is malware? Okay.

Battery health is totally relevant as you can’t get around physics. I have a drill combo set with heavy duty li-ion batteries. They have aged over time and discharge sooner then they did when they were new and don’t last as long with use. Same for your battery with the 6s. If the 6s is lasting a full day usage must be very very light.

 

[FeliApple]

iOS is malware? Okay.

An install which you cannot reverse and causes harm to the device.

Battery health is totally relevant as you can’t get around physics. I have a drill combo set with heavy duty li-ion batteries. They have aged over time and discharge sooner then they did when they were new and don’t last as long with use. Same for your battery with the 6s. If the 6s is lasting a full day usage must be very very light.

The 6s has seen a negligible, less than 5% decline in SOT since it was new, with 63% health, on iOS 10.

My reasoning? The original iOS version (or early ones, iOS 10 is as good as iOS 9) is too efficient even with a degraded battery.

This is why I feel so strongly about this issue: people with 10-year-old iPads or more report good battery life. My 6s on a like-new iOS version is amazing, with the 7-year-old original battery. The things Apple can achieve when designing an iOS version for a device (when it is the latest) are amazing. It is very sad (regardless of one’s stance on this), to see millions upon millions of iOS devices with pathetic battery life and performance when you know that original iOS versions are good. Henceforth, you know that the device can be good, but it will never be.
Take the iPhone 6s: on iOS 15, it is unusable battery life and performance-wise. It’s my favourite iPhone ever. And it’s a shadow of what it used to be. And to add insult to injury, it is very easy for Apple to restore a device to what it should be, yet they refuse.

Seeing people say “the iPhone 6s is my favourite iPhone ever, but I had to upgrade because battery life was destroyed on iOS 15” is just awful: like I said, millions upon millions of iPhones demolished into uselessness just because Apple inexplicably refuses to allow downgrades.

 

[I7guy]

An install which you cannot reverse and causes harm to the device.

Completely subjective poppycock.

The 6s has seen a negligible, less than 5% decline in SOT since it was new, with 63% health, on iOS 10.

My reasoning? The original iOS version (or early ones, iOS 10 is as good as iOS 9) is too efficient even with a degraded battery.

This is why I feel so strongly about this issue: people with 10-year-old iPads or more report good battery life. My 6s on a like-new iOS version is amazing, with the 7-year-old original battery. The things Apple can achieve when designing an iOS version for a device (when it is the latest) are amazing. It is very sad (regardless of one’s stance on this), to see millions upon millions of iOS devices with pathetic battery life and performance when you know that original iOS versions are good. Henceforth, you know that the device can be good, but it will never be.
Take the iPhone 6s: on iOS 15, it is unusable battery life and performance-wise. It’s my favourite iPhone ever. And it’s a shadow of what it used to be. And to add insult to injury, it is very easy for Apple to restore a device to what it should be, yet they refuse.

Seeing people say “the iPhone 6s is my favourite iPhone ever, but I had to upgrade because battery life was destroyed on iOS 15” is just awful: like I said, millions upon millions of iPhones demolished into uselessness just because Apple inexplicably refuses to allow downgrades.

Your use case is a crippled device that lasts all day because you baby it inside in a dark room next to the router. There is no way due to physics of the battery using the phone as intended you get a full day with nearly 40% battery loss. My use case is playing YouTube videos PIP, while surfing the internet on LTE in full sunlight.

 

[FeliApple]

Your use case is a crippled device that lasts all day because you baby it inside in a dark room next to the router. There is no way due to physics of the battery using the phone as intended you get a full day with nearly 40% battery loss. My use case is playing YouTube videos PIP, while surfing the internet on LTE in full sunlight.

Some things I’d like to contend:

-So now there’s a correct and an incorrect way to use an iPhone? Besides, heavier use is good on iOS 10 too. High brightness web browsing with full LTE (no Wi-Fi, ever) with heavy camera use gave me 4.5 hours. Camera is one of the heaviest, most draining activities. Yes, any new phone (presumably including your Xs Max on iOS 16, let alone my Xʀ on iOS 12) will be better than that (using my terms, any new iPhone will obliterate that), but to be clear: I’m not saying battery life is amazing relative to new iPhones, I’m saying battery life is amazing relative to itself on iOS 15.

-Once again: everyone is surprised by my efficiency with severely degraded batteries, but nobody tries it. Everyone updates as soon as new iOS versions come, so of course they won’t know. By the time a battery is degraded, the device is four or five major versions in, so, obliterated by updates.

My battery life isn’t amazing because I am some sort of genius battery wizard whose sole touch makes batteries great; my battery life is amazing because I don’t update iOS.

 

[I7guy]

Some things I’d like to contend:

-So now there’s a correct and an incorrect way to use an iPhone? Besides, heavier use is good on iOS 10 too. High brightness web browsing with full LTE (no Wi-Fi, ever) with heavy camera use gave me 4.5 hours. Camera is one of the heaviest, most draining activities. Yes, any new phone (presumably including your Xs Max on iOS 16, let alone my Xʀ on iOS 12) will be better than that (using my terms, any new iPhone will obliterate that), but to be clear: I’m not saying battery life is amazing relative to new iPhones, I’m saying battery life is amazing relative to itself on iOS 15.

-Once again: everyone is surprised by my efficiency with severely degraded batteries, but nobody tries it. Everyone updates as soon as new iOS versions come, so of course they won’t know. By the time a battery is degraded, the device is four or five major versions in, so, obliterated by updates.

My battery life isn’t amazing because I am some sort of genius battery wizard whose sole touch makes batteries great; my battery life is amazing because I don’t update iOS.

Are you referring to the xr or the 6s? Or discussing both at the same time? As per your past posts, the 6s cannot handle many JavaScript heavy websites. I’m surprised ios 10 handles any current web technology without stuttering like crazy.

Other posters have disputed your claims of “obliteration “ and agree later model iPhones, x and above don’t exhibit (or minimally exhibit) the symptoms you claim. My max with a new battery is as good as day 1, that is my contention.

But no matter what li ion chemistry matters, one can’t get around it. At any rate I can’t see how you use your phones and vice-versa so we’ll have to leave it as these are anecdotal.

 

[cosmichobo]

No.

What you call squeezing every penny sounds like apple is ensuring that phones get replaced to their spec. I’m sure apple has or had specific reasons why phones were engineered in such a manner—-which unlike how people here think (or YouTubers with an eye toward google $$$); wasn’t to increase revenue.

So YouTubers ARE increasing their revenue selfishly... But Apple ARE NOT. Ahuh.

 

[cosmichobo]

I can understand Apple not allowing third-party hardware replacements, because quality can be very varied, and they don’t want that headache.

This is entirely different from disallowing downgrades: in this case, it’s their own software. I’m not asking for Apple to allow me to run Android... I want to run an iOS version that isn’t malware.

That said, some observations on this:

-Apple’s pricing and policy isn’t good: like they refuse to replace a $10 home button, they replace the entire top case on MacBooks when they want to replace the battery. They replace entire assemblies, which fine, whatever, but the issue is that that carries a massive premium in pricing. You cannot acceptably fix a $10 issue charging 10 times as much because “muh policy”.

-On battery replacements: I am lucky in that battery health is irrelevant if the device isn’t updated. If I were to have to replace batteries (and if I wanted to do it through Apple because I want it to be through the manufacturer itself, makes sense, right?), Apple would grab my 6s on iOS 10 (to give an example), and if they were to break the pull tabs on the battery... they replace the entire phone. Which would be obliterated by iOS 15.

Another more obvious example is iPads: Apple doesn’t replace the battery, they replace the entire device with refurbished units.
Again, I’m lucky battery health is irrelevant, because if it weren’t, I’d be forced to get a refurbished model, and as Apple doesn’t allow downgrading, well, it would be on iPadOS 16. No thank you.

I can almost understand not allowing 3rd party replacements.... But the point that Hugh makes is - he can take 2 brand new entirely identical iPhones, and swap the components over. So - brand new Apple parts. And the phone's functionality ceases in various ways - UNLESS you are an authorised repairer. So not 3rd party - but brand new Apple parts, and it still doesn't work.

I am sure Apple would happily explain this as security or whatever... but the real world change is - even if you can source Apple parts, you can't repair the phone yourself. You can't take it to Apple and say - I put new parts in, please re-activate all these failed systems. You either take it to Apple and pay for the repairs (at least, whilst the repairs make sense to perform, and/or are available from them), or you toss it and get a new one.

Who benefits from this? Ahhhhhh Apple.

 

[I7guy]

So YouTubers ARE increasing their revenue selfishly... But Apple ARE NOT. Ahuh.

That is correct. The more outrageous the claims the more the views. Apple can have negative public and media criticism from doing underhanded things.

Once a phone is opened and not put back correctly who gets the criticism? Apple. Or if some hacker figures out a way to bypass security because of the way parts were swapped, etc.

 

[cosmichobo]

That is correct. The more outrageous the claims the more the views. Apple can have negative public and media criticism from doing underhanded things.

Once a phone is opened and not put back correctly who gets the criticism? Apple. Or if some hacker figures out a way to bypass security because of the way parts were swapped, etc.

People have been repairing Apple devices since Apple devices existed. I'm one of them.

Right to Repair is not going to go away, and Apple choosing to make devices un-repairable is bad for the environment, good for their bank balance. Pure and simple. Capitalism gone to the dogs.

 

[I7guy]

People have been repairing Apple devices since Apple devices existed. I'm one of them.

Ok, now your perspective makes sense.

Right to Repair is not going to go away, and Apple choosing to make devices un-repairable is bad for the environment, good for their bank balance. Pure and simple. Capitalism gone to the dogs.

Well ok, maybe you should ask apple directly what their design decisions were since you seem to have it all figured out.

 

[FeliApple]

Are you referring to the xr or the 6s? Or discussing both at the same time? As per your past posts, the 6s cannot handle many JavaScript heavy websites. I’m surprised ios 10 handles any current web technology without stuttering like crazy.

I’m referring to the 6s. If my Xʀ got 4.5 hours on iOS 12 I’d laugh at my own numbers, rather than praise them.

There are some websites it can’t run, but the ones that do run, do so flawlessly.

Other posters have disputed your claims of “obliteration “ and agree later model iPhones, x and above don’t exhibit (or minimally exhibit) the symptoms you claim. My max with a new battery is as good as day 1, that is my contention.

Xs onwards. The A11 Bionic iPhones are not good. They’re better than A9 and A10 iPhones, but they’re not good.

Also, once again, we aren’t at the end of the road yet. A12 iPhones have more updates left in them.

Like I said on a different thread: maybe we can hope that battery life on the Xʀ onwards is good enough in one way. As their battery life is better (the Xʀ on iOS 12 gets more than twice the battery life that the 6s on iOS 10 gets), maybe we can hope that they can withstand significant degradation and still remain usable. It wouldn’t make updates good, but if battery size can overwhelm updates, well, that would be a lot better for users.

The iPhone 6s sees more than a 40% drop with a new battery. Once battery health decreases, the phone is unusable (unlike one on iOS 10, like I said).

Maybe the Xʀ onwards can have a 30% drop, and with a little luck, the final iOS update’s power requirements won’t be so stringent so as to obliterate the device, like iOS 15 does to the 6s. Obviously, this remains to be seen, but it would be nice.

Because while, yes, a 30% drop coupled with increased power requirements - which causes lower battery health iPhones to be significantly impacted - would probably be enough to drop the Xʀ numbers to 6s numbers (while new), that is usable. If a degraded battery on iOS 18 or whatever on a Xʀ can get 9 hours with light use, maybe it can get 6 hours of heavier use. Pathetic compared to iOS 12 (whose numbers are more 16 and 11-12), but somewhat usable, unlike the iPhone 6s. Users report less than 2 hours with a somewhat degraded battery on a 6s, and I’ve seen it myself. That’s not usable.

But no matter what li ion chemistry matters, one can’t get around it. At any rate I can’t see how you use your phones and vice-versa so we’ll have to leave it as these are anecdotal.

I’m not a heavy user, but as far as the Xʀ goes, I’m quite sure that barring any issues, as far as the battery goes, it should be able to last many, many years.

If iPads are good 10 years in or more, I have no reason to doubt that the battery life will be a problem, for this device’s entire lifespan.


I mean, the reason is obvious: increased power requirements on new iOS versions increase load on the battery. That’s why battery life is worse on new iOS versions, and that’s why degraded batteries struggle on updated devices.

 

[FeliApple]

I can almost understand not allowing 3rd party replacements.... But the point that Hugh makes is - he can take 2 brand new entirely identical iPhones, and swap the components over. So - brand new Apple parts. And the phone's functionality ceases in various ways - UNLESS you are an authorised repairer. So not 3rd party - but brand new Apple parts, and it still doesn't work.

I am sure Apple would happily explain this as security or whatever... but the real world change is - even if you can source Apple parts, you can't repair the phone yourself. You can't take it to Apple and say - I put new parts in, please re-activate all these failed systems. You either take it to Apple and pay for the repairs (at least, whilst the repairs make sense to perform, and/or are available from them), or you toss it and get a new one.

Who benefits from this? Ahhhhhh Apple.

Yeah, you pay for the repairs at a massive premium. It doesn’t make much sense.

I guess the original parts swapping is another policy which doesn’t make sense, but we’ll have to learn to accept.

I complain about downgrading, but I have accepted that this is the case: I will do everything I can to maintain my devices on the earliest possible version and I will circumvent issues the best I can. It’s all I can do.

The repairs part is a bit trickier because the only way would not to break the device, and I think we all try our best not to break them. Accidents happen, and yeah, we’re trapped if that happens.