Apple Sued by U.S. Department of Justice, Says Lawsuit is 'Wrong'

[hooptyuber]

I have misgivings that the US government can effectively regulate tech mainly due to our government being full of decrepit should-be retirees.

In general, I think the administrative state is a critical piece to keep classically liberal institutions from eating itself alive. Corporations are only motivated by profit and - especially for publicly traded companies - growth. The administrative/regulatory state possesses the ability to exist outside the profit and growth motivation, so they have the unique ability to recognize when laissez faire will erode the very foundation that allows profits to exist.

Bureaucrats and politicians are motivated by profit and they ruthlessly defend and nurture the source of their profits, their benefactor - the state. This naive view that the state is staffed and run by wise people with only the best motives gives me the creeps and makes me despair for the future. It's the kind of thinking that leads to full blown totalitarianism.

 

[Beautyspin]

And you love Government overreach, and think they can do no wrong. Each to their own. But where you think the DOJ has some solid case, I think you're viewing it through rose-colored glasses. Good luck to you. I think the DOJ is going to get spanked on most of this. And I think the consumer will be better off because of that.

Apple has to win on all counts. DOJ needs to win only some of them. My odds are for DOJ.

• It kicks off a multi-year process that will involve hundreds of lawyers and threatens Apple’s “walled garden” business model.
• If the DOJ wins, it could seek a range of changes to Apple’s business, and U.S. officials didn’t rule out the possibility that Apple could face “structural remedies” or be broken up.

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/22/apple-doj-antitrust-suit-company-faces-years-of-distraction.html

Apple could ask for the case to be dismissed too.

 

[dizmonk]

Pretty much all of it can be mitigated by discussion and some actions.

Completely agree but I don't think it will be.

 

[Richard8655]

i have no idea how you can be so off the mark

Not surprising as a devotee.

 

[Beautyspin]

And which company, pray tell, do you think has provided better safety and security in the digital space? Google? Meta? Microsoft? The US Government?

Look I get the angle you're trying to spin here...that if Apple hasn't achieved perfect safety and security for everyone, then they are horrible and Apple should be slapped by the government, who apparently, in your view, only has consumers best interestes at heart. I don't share your optimisim, and I choose, with my own money, to trust Apple more than I trust the competition.

You're trying to over simplify complex issues to the point of absurdity.

I think consumers are generally safer on IOS. So even if Apple is using it's business practices to benefit Apple over the competition, and the net result is that more consumers are using IOS, I think I and those consumers are better off.

This case is about Apple, nobody else.
Any privacy/security Apple has achieved seems to be byproduct of its search for profits rather than its primary goal as it touts so much.

 

[CodeSpyder]

I am against this lawsuit and I sent DOJ a message here.

Your message to the Department of Justice

www.justice.gov

 

[Beautyspin]

its a phone. people use SMS. so Apple support it.

it's not Apple's fault that SMS isnt secure.

they added features for iOS users to extend SMS into a better messaging system. they just didnt extend it to Android users. that's their choice. they maintain iOS and that's their focus. when it suits them they write Android apps for things like Apple Music. the purpose is to sell a service and generate income. making Messages for Android wont make any money.

Even though there is a solution that is so simple that a 27-year-old working alone could come up with a more secure solution using Apple's technologies only, Apple ignored it for profits. So, you think that is fine?

 

[hooptyuber]

Such writing may wellbe on the wall, particularly (and beginning in) China, which arguably has a more competitive Android market than the US or Europe:

https://www.macrumors.com/2024/01/15/apple-offers-rare-iphone-discounts-china/
https://www.macrumors.com/2024/02/29/iphone-sales-china-dependent-promotions/
https://www.macrumors.com/2024/03/05/china-iphone-sales-slump-early-2024/

And it’s probably part of WHY Apple are defending their App Store/payment monopoly on iOS so vigorously.

More competitive? It's a communist dictatorship that promotes the state brands, most specifically Huawei.

It's a system the US and most Western governments have expressed admiration for over the past several years. It's a form of control that this lawsuit from the DOJ is in sync with - imposing the power of the managerial state.

 

[Beautyspin]

Apple is like "We innovate every day to make technology people love" while the iPhones are starting to look like Toyota vehicles with barely any changes each year. There is nothing innovative other than a new chip, each iPhone does the same thing.

Well, every release they have 4 new emojis at least.

 

[ToyoCorollaGR]

I said it makes the experience confusing.

Will third party apps download updates automatically? Restored on iCloud backup/restore when getting a new phone? Do I need to delete Microsoft Office before downloading the Microsoft Store version? List of questions go on and on.

You can say whatever you want, doesn't make it any more of a truth 🙄

 

[Ctrlos]

lol says who? random guess is random. plenty of people carry more than 1 phone.

clearly you're applying one standard to one situation but not the other.

Who though?

Workers who have to maintain two devices for different lines and youtubers reviewing two handsets is not the same as buying an extra handset because an app you want isn't in your ecosystem.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Bureaucrats and politicians are motivated by profit and they ruthlessly defend and nurture the source of their profits,

I don’t believe that bureaucrats are motivated by profit.

I believe they‘re mostly motivated by enforcing order and „doing the right thing“ - even if (as your opinion may be) the latter is misguided or misfires.

This naive view that the state is staffed and run by wise people with only the best motives gives me the creeps and makes me despair for the future. It's the kind of thinking that leads to full blown totalitarianism.

What gives me the creeps is people who would rather have and submit to a corporate totalitarian ruler.
A Big Brother that control their steps, everyone else‘s every step, their digital lives - and the walls of their garden.

I mean, this thread is full of such people and arguments:

• „But having one centralised App Store is sooooo convenient“
• „I bought the walled garden, I like a walled garden“
• „They created the platform, they deserve to do as they please and charge who they want what they want“
• „Only a centralised ruler can keep us all safe.“
• „And just think about the children or the elderly and what they might install and what scams they might fall victim to! They don’t know what they’re doing and need to be protected and cocooned. They might even vape!“

👉🏻 The road to totalitarianism is paved with centralised and unitary control. Over communication and economy.

 

[Ludatyk]

Again, Apple didn't invent what the green bubble represents. That's the most commonly used messaging standard, still, of SMS/MMS. Apple didn't invent the limitations of SMS/MMS. You're bending so far over backwards to try to blame Apple for those limitations that it is beyond silly.

Never said Apple invented it... but carriers along with Google is pushing for a new standard RCS to help with the common limitations of SMS/MMS. Which Apple has refused to implement (until China stepped in)?

RCS hasn't been the "answer" that you're trying to paint it. It still doesn't have a standard end-to-end encryption standard, and implementing it so that it has that has been tied into competition from Apple's competitors. Google has their own flavor of RCS with encryption, and has wanted Apple to use their proprietary add-on to RCS. Apple was never going to do that, and I'm glad for that. Apple relying on Google for the encyrption, using Google servers, was never going to happen.

I believe it's end-to-end encryption... where you getting this information?

None of that is Apple's "fault" in the way you're trying to imply. It simply shows you don't understand the complexity of the issues at play.

Maybe you don't understand. But let me explain it to you... but here in the US, where SMS is such a vital part of communication. Apple took advantage of the opportunity to create a layer on top of it... with the introduction of iMessage, no other messaging app were able utilize your phone number on the iPhone ONLY Apple.

Kudos for Apple on seizing the moment... it was a great business strategy (no doubt about it), but the problem it led to be is a lock-in mechanism. If you look online, you can see the studies of how this lock-in mechanism has affected society from teenagers to the dating scene.

Now is on a scale of other societal issues we are facing in this day in age... no, not at all. But Apple should at the least be investigated.

But even so, again, you want the Government to enforce something much better left to the market.

If that means we can get a more diverse smartphone market (and new business startups) ... absolutely.

 

[pugxiwawa]

So, again, you think the consumer would be better off if the Government is dictating features for tech devices? Telling companies what they can and cannot release, when they can and cannot release it? Of COURSE Apple is acting in their interest, and if their interest doesn't satifsy consumers, Apple fails. Simple as that.

I mean, this is market economies 101; have you never taken an econ course of studied the history or market economics? It's summed up nicely here by Adam Smith:

“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities, but of their advantages”​

― Adam Smith, An Inquiry into the Nature & Causes of the Wealth of Nations, Vol 1

You are wrong, and taking it the completely the wrong way. DoJ is not dictating or telling Apple what features they can or cannot release. DoJ is simply saying that if a certain base functionality that Apple is able to access internally, AND using it in a way that it dramatically improves the services it provides, because 3rd party doesn't have access to them, then Apple should open up the accessibility to those functions.

Explain to us again, when Apple opens these up to 3rd party access, what harm will it cause to you as consumer? Just give us one example. If let's say when WhatsApp gains native SMS api, and make an even better message app then iMessage, what harm would that cause to you? You don't have to use WhatsApp or other 3rd party to you if you just want to stick with everything Apple. There will be a lot more innovation around iPhone instead of the same thing year after year, because they know people have no choice.

There's no need to sheepishly defending Apple. Choices are good for consumers. Period. Apple will settle this soon because TC doesn't want their dirty laundry be exposed.

 

[Beautyspin]

OF COURSE!!! Apple is a business!!! That's how a market works. Amazing that this is some soft of "gotcha" idea for you.

Seriously, are you trying to convince me that Apple is a business? No need. I'm already aware. I don't judge them in any other way.

I'm sorry if that bursts some utopian fantasy of the world that you hold. Here's another myth: Government cares about you and has identical interests that you hold.

Absolutely not sure we are even arguing about the same thing.
A business that says privacy and security is important forgoes a solution that offers privacy and security and instead goes for a solution that is less secure and less private, all for profit and you are okay? Then let them not talk about privacy. Hypocrites.

 

[Beautyspin]

Can you not post ChatGPT generated content?

Why? The question was speculative and the answer is speculative. Nobody is saying that they are facts. Are you worried that ChatGPT predicts dire things for Apple?

 

[spazzcat]

Well, every release they have 4 new emojis at least.

Apple has nothing to do with new emojis. But these guys do https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_Consortium

 

[ToyoCorollaGR]

there is no consensus

you have people that bought iPhone because they like the iPhone as it is and want it to stay that way.
you have people that bought an iPhone despite what it is and want to turn it into android.

people that bought an iPhone wanting the same openess as android don’t understand or if they do then they won’t accept that for those of that bought an iPhone because of what it is will LOSE the choice of a closed mobile system if iOS is opened up.

iOS once you add side loading and alt app stores etc even if you do not personally use them then it becomes an open mobile ecosystem.
those of us that bought iPhones because of that closed status don’t have an alternative

currently you have a choice

android - open
iphone - closed

will become

android - open
iphone - open

leaves no CHOICE for those of us that choose the currently a closed system as there is no other closed system for people that want it and chose it.

As you've been told, use your iPhone as it currently is, real simple 🙄

 

[ToyoCorollaGR]

So? That doesn't change the fact that you uncritically posted a clear lie.

The full quote (conveniently trimmed in your article) was "iMessage on Android would simply serve to remove [an] obstacle to iPhone families giving their kids Android phones.”

It's not a lie because you don't like it 🙄

 

[Beautyspin]

Apple has nothing to do with new emojis. But these guys do https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_Consortium

Maybe, but they are very proud to announce it in their change logs. Emojis are the top.

iOS 17.4​

This update introduces new emoji, transcripts in Apple Podcasts and includes other features, bug fixes, and security updates for your iPhone.

Emoji

• New mushroom, phoenix, lime, broken chain, and shaking heads emoji are now available in the emoji keyboard
• 18 people and body emoji add the option to face them in either direction

OTOH, look at the updates of any other OS and see what they consider as updates.

 

[huge_apple_fangirl]

After listening to one of the DOJ attorneys on CNBC, this is an incredibly weak case. All he spoke about was how Apple charges too much to enter its ecosystem and that consumers and developers want lower prices and fees. It sounds like the DOJ is representing tech companies that have complained about Apple rather than what's in the best interest of the consumer.

Ding ding ding!

This case has nothing to do with consumers. The DoJ even said in their press conference that they will go after companies no matter how “popular” they are. But if a company is popular with its customers, surely there is no harm done? This isn’t like John Deere or the cable monopolies who are hated.

Apple’s closed model competes on the free market and wins, and Apple has always been completely upfront about it. Apple’s biggest problem here is really that their competition sucks so much that they are much more dominant than they would otherwise be. Apple’s customers are happy with Apple and are free to leave at any point.

Developers hate Apple and billion dollar companies have been lobbying the government to force Apple to change its contractual terms with them. This is a business dispute with Apple on one side and Microsoft, Meta, Spotify, Epic, Match Group, etc on the other. What they really want is for Apple to be put under a “duty to deal” regime with regard to iOS- if they want to be on the iPhone, Apple must let them on, regardless of whether they break Apple’s rules on the App Store, IAP, etc. But that will never happen so they and the DoJ are trying to sell it under the banner of antitrust and consumer harm. But the little guy doesn’t have billions to lobby the government to harm his business partners. If you ask most iPhone users if they support this, they would say no. Shouldn’t that mean something?

 

[simidene]

About time.... if Tim Cook had any sense he would have proactively done things to avoid the fights Apple is now in all over the world. But this is the same person who wasted billions on an electric car and left his company years if not a decade behind on AI.

I agree! People think that Apple will prevail and I do not think so. Microsoft was sued as well for antirust tactics in the past, how did that work out. How on earth do people think that Apple keeps people in their ecosystem, it's somewhat heavy handed. Sure the argument may well be, they are not forcing you to by an iPhone, sure they are not, but when texting functionality is limited when android users and vice versa are sending texts, video etc to each other (family and friends), there is an issue. Glad they were forced to incorporate RCS it's just ethical and the right thing to do. What is Apple going to do, they will most likely wait until the 4th quarter to implement it, as they know this was one of the main reasons people purchased an Iphone, because other family members were using them, and they could communicate with them properly. I do believe that Apple will slowly lose some market share after RCS is implemented with Iphone sales, because of this. People will care less about blue bubbles etc. What do most folks in the EU do even if they have an iPhone, they use third party apps to communicate with others...people should not have to do that. Apple loves that, because they get a share of that revenue from third party apps.

 

[spazzcat]

Maybe, but they are very proud to announce it in their change logs. Emojis are the top.

iOS 17.4​

This update introduces new emoji, transcripts in Apple Podcasts and includes other features, bug fixes, and security updates for your iPhone.

Emoji

• New mushroom, phoenix, lime, broken chain, and shaking heads emoji are now available in the emoji keyboard
• 18 people and body emoji add the option to face them in either direction

OTOH, look at the updates of any other OS and see what they consider as updates.

Apple, just like anyone else that uses Unicode, has to implement any new emojis that come out of the Consortium. And I would expect Apple to put these in their release notes, seeing how that is the point of said notes.

 

[ToyoCorollaGR]

Only merit I see here is in the cross-platform messaging app portion of it. Even that is weak.

Well, fortunately, that's not the opinion of the DOJ. Next?

 

[bgillander]

Do you favour the status quo?
Would you like to see things like cross platform support?

I would like to see an actual standard for enhanced, encrypted cross platform messaging, not some hack. RCS sounds like it is 90% there, so I’m hoping they add encryption to the standard and make the whole thing a true standard, not a work around.