Apple Sued for 'All-Seeing Eye' Employee Device Monitoring Policy

[brandoman]

This has been going on at Apple for decades. Should have just read the contract/terms before joining.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

My goodness
It's borderline scary to see how many folks are running to the side of the megacorp here

There is a difference between defending a “megacorp” and defending an idiot.

From reading the thread, most people aren’t defending Apple, but are basically pointing out that when you go to work for most anyone and they offer you a free company device, you have to assume they will track you on it. So you better take that device instead of letting them put TRACKING on your phone.

Like, this is the reality these days. My large employer tracks people through their phones. So you have to make a decision. Not working there is also a decision.

 

[burgman]

So his "innie" can't talk to "outies" – I think there's an AppleTV show about this...

Also though this is very weird:

That's soooo weird if true. The whole point of using a Managed Apple Account (neé Managed Apple ID) is that when you use a managed account an app is able to put that data in a separate APFS volume for just work stuff and they don't co-mingle. Of course if he joined in 2020, there's were TONS of things Managed Apple IDs couldn't do (like iCloud Keychain for one!) and still have limitations so maybe they did have him use a personal Apple ID? 🤔 Very weird.

I assume this applies when the choosing to use a personal phone for work vs accepting a work only phone.

 

[Mity]

The lawsuit takes issue with Apple's requirement that employees use Apple collaboration tools with an iCloud account, often a personal iCloud account.

Why should an employee be required to sign-in with their private iCloud account?

 

[iFunk]

I like Apple products but it seems like a cult like environment. I worked with Apple employees for years in my role in the wireless industry. Nice folks but they refused to visit a call center unless they were the "only vendor." Kind of like a - we are above all and unless we are the only ones there.... well you are beneath us. We would share info such as "we are getting x amount of calls per month during the iPhone setup over xyzzy." Instead of them saying --- "good feedback let us take it back" they would make excuses on why the customer was wrong. Years later I noticed those same items we were reporting 10 years ago were finally fixed/enhanced so they are no longer an issue. Its like they just don't like to admit any feedback that could be good and help improve their client experience (from cellular companies). Oh well I guess that's life.

I visited Google during one of our work trips (we also visited Apple as well) and it was pretty cool as employees were using all sorts of devices. You'd see a Google employee with iPhone, Android phone and a MacBook. They had free chargers at various door entrances for you to use and keep or return. The environment seems much more lax at Google.

Not trying to judge anyone just mentioning what I witnessed and dealt with. Thankful to no longer be working in the wireless industry 2+ decades was enough for me.

 

[Chazz12]

Apple policies about mistreatment and harassment generously favor staff over managers, lower-level managers over upper-level managers. The company is very fair, but still can play hardball when required.

That is just not true, as a former employee of Apple, where I was targeted by the senior manager, who then got a promotion. When she was out of the picture, things changed drastically.

 

[MNGR]

Obviously Bhakta has never had a clearance. This is how the world works dude, free speech is entirely different from nondisclosure. Go back and look at all those forms you signed on your first day, none of which you read because you were so excited about your new job. I hope his attorneys are working on a contingent basis, otherwise he's gonna get cleaned out. What is it about millennials and wanting to podcast about their life? I can't imagine anyone cares.

True. And there are numerous things like trade secrets and no one can disclose.

 

[spazzcat]

Yes, but spying on communications is illegal, where I live, by an employer, on a company device or not.

Likewise, it would be illegal for my employer to try and stop me filling in my LinkedIn profile, writing employer reviews at Kanunu or Glass Door etc. or letting off steam with friends about what a bad experience work is... Saying that, I like my employer and we have great working conditions, so they don't need to be worried about me making such claims.

Maybe if Apple spent as much time and money making the working environment pleasant, instead of hounding unsatisfied workers, they wouldn't be in this mess either.

Your employer owns anytihng to do with your job, and anything you post online isn't private.

 

[Chazak]

You can rest assured Mr. Bhakta signed an agreement with clearly defined terms. Now that he has had an unpleasant experience with Apple he wishes to write about it and generate negative publicity for Apple.

The guy made a bad deal. Whose fault is that? No one forced him to agree to the terms and to work for Apple. He intentionally violated the terms of the contract. I hope he loses quickly and has to eat huge legal fees. He deserves it.

 

[MNGR]

I read the terms and conditions of my employment.

So did I. Also mortgage T&C's. For example back in the day the mortgage company was having us agree/sign many documents. Their documents were NOT consistent. They said NO ONE reads them. Well I did. So they agreed to the least restrictive one.
So lesson learned. Read before signing.

 

[Big_D]

Your employer owns anytihng to do with your job, and any you post online isn't private.

Only what I do at work / during work times. They don't own anything I do in my private time.

 

[Chazak]

You guys only read the "private phone" part? Are you ok with the rest, stuff like being unable to talk about mistreatment and harassment? Is that also in the contract???

I read the entire article. That doesn't change anything. It is very simple - Bhakta agreed to the terms. The terms don't allow him to trash Apple anywhere. Unless the contract is illegal, what you are saying has no relevance.

As much as some people want it to be, this is not about someone's view of right and wrong or Apple's morality. It is about contract law. It is business, just business. Bhakta made a classic mistake often done by malcontents in a business environment - he made it personal.

You should notice that Bhakta did not start with a complaint filed with California and United States Labor authorities. He went straight to a lawsuit. Mostlikely because he had no case under labor laws and regulations. Probably contingency fee vultures representing him.

 

[Chazak]

Only what I do at work / during work times. They don't own anything I do in my private time.

There are consequences to your words and actions whether or not the law allows you freedom of speech. Bhakta is facing the consequences of his words and actions. Why is it som many people think they have some constitutional right to talk garbage about their employer especially when their employment contract specifically prohibits. The 1st Amendment does not protect you from consequences.

 

[cicalinarrot]

I read the entire article. That doesn't change anything. It is very simple - Bhakta agreed to the terms. The terms don't allow him to trash Apple anywhere. Unless the contract is illegal, what you are saying has no relevance.

As much as some people want it to be, this is not about someone's view of right and wrong or Apple's morality. It is about contract law. It is business, just business. Bhakta made a classic mistake often done by malcontents in a business environment - he made it personal.

You should notice that Bhakta did not start with a complaint filed with California and United States Labor authorities. He went straight to a lawsuit. Mostlikely because he had no case under labor laws and regulations. Probably contingency fee vultures representing him.

Discussing harassment can't be called "trashing", especially with coworkers. If it's on the contract, I hope it's illegal. If it's not, it's still very ethically wrong to me.
In general, "it's in the contract they signed", can't be an excuse for all. Companies have more power, they write contracts, we can't pretend it's a deal between peers. People "agreed" to work 12/14 hours a day in the 19th century, that wasn't ok, even if it was "in the contract"

 

[Chazak]

Sorry, but principles like loyalty and confidentiality always need to be balanced with the needs and human rights of the people. If you’re not free to ‘speak … about problems at work like harassment, discrimination, or unfair treatment’, then the balance of power is pretty skewed.

Sorry, but you haven't got a legal leg to stand on. Freedom of speech does not eliminate consequences for what you choose to say.

Balance of power? You had me ROFL with that. You must think he works for the government or a socialist workers collective.

 

[Chazz12]

Discussing harassment can't be called "trashing", especially with coworkers. If it's on the contract, I hope it's illegal. If it's not, it's still very ethically wrong to me.
In general, "it's in the contract they signed", can't be an excuse for all. Companies have more power, they write contracts, we can't pretend it's a deal between peers. People "agreed" to work 12/14 hours a day in the 19th century, that wasn't ok, even if it was "in the contract"

Their argument they are using, "it's in the contract", is probably what was used to keep indentured servants in their place. Doesn't mean it's okay. Some people have no moral compass.

 

[Big_D]

Why is it som many people think they have some constitutional right to talk garbage about their employer especially when their employment contract specifically prohibits. The 1st Amendment does not protect you from consequences.

No, but German employment law does. I am glad I don't live/work in the USA, I would lose too many of my freedoms.

I do have the right to criticise my employer, or praise them. I do have the right to add my job information to my CV and Xing and LinkedIn profiles. I can't garbage talk about them, but if I stick to the facts, I am aloud to state what problems I face at work.

 

[Chazz12]

Sorry, but you haven't got a legal leg to stand on. Freedom of speech does not eliminate consequences for what you choose to say.

Balance of power? You had me ROFL with that. You must think he works for the government or a socialist workers collective.

You REALLY don't understand what the 1st amendment was for, do you? lol. You keep throwing it around like you know case law or something, but your arguments don't have a leg to stand on. looooool.

 

[Chazak]

Discussing harassment can't be called "trashing", especially with coworkers. If it's on the contract, I hope it's illegal. If it's not, it's still very ethically wrong to me.
In general, "it's in the contract they signed", can't be an excuse for all. Companies have more power, they write contracts, we can't pretend it's a deal between peers. People "agreed" to work 12/14 hours a day in the 19th century, that wasn't ok, even if it was "in the contract"

Peers? What are you talking about? Bhakta agreed to the terms. Unless the terms were illegal, the case is closed.

He shot his mouth off in a way prohibited by his employment contract and in way guaranteed to make Apple know about it. He will be lucky if the only consequence he faces is being fired and maybe on the hook for a bunch of legal fees.

 

[laptech]

Just because the guy signed the employment contract does not mean the contract is lawful. The wording in the contract would need to be tested in a court of law to find if what is written is lawful or not and that is exactly what the guy is doing.

Edit: Classic example is contract of sales law regarding warranty void labels. Many companies had in their sales contracts (terms and conditions) that if the warranty void labels were removed from the product it would void getting the item repaired at the companies expense because it had been tampered with. Warranty void got tested in the court of law and it was found to be unlawful. Now companies cannot use warranty void stickers as a way to prevent customers getting their items repaired. In the past a number of companies EULA's have been found to be unlawful. I believe Apple has been on the receiving end of some this.

Just because someone writes a contract does not mean it is lawful. Only when the contract is tested in a court of law does one know if the contract is lawful or not.

 

[Chazak]

As I read through the comments I am stunned at the number of people who seem to think their personal concept of fairness and justice overrules established and settled contract land 1st Amendment law. It really makes me shake head that so many seem to think breaking your word in a situation you think is unfair is okay. Assuming the facts are as stated and the employment agreement is legal, unfair means nothing. It is just whining and complaining about having consequences for your actions.

Sorry, but these kind of posts really make me wonder where the writers got their concept and commitment to responsibility.

 

[Big_D]

I think many of us are just shocked at how bad US employment law is, that it allows companies there to act like this.

If they tried that in many other countries, they'd have been in front of the courts long ago.

 

[Chazak]

Just because the guy signed the employment contract does not mean the contract is lawful. The wording in the contract would need to be tested in a court of law to find if what is written is lawful or not and that is exactly what the guy is doing.

You can pretty much be guaranteed the contract is legal and has already been tested in court. Do you really think this is the first time Apple has faced this situation with an employee? It isn't.

 

[Chazak]

You REALLY don't understand what the 1st amendment was for, do you? lol. You keep throwing it around like you know case law or something, but your arguments don't have a leg to stand on. looooool.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I know a lot more about than you seem to think. He hasn't got a leg to stand on. Talk to me about your legal education regarding the 1st Amendment and consequences for a person's words and action that are not illegal discrimination.

 

[spazzcat]

Only what I do at work / during work times. They don't own anything I do in my private time.

Good luck with that, there are companies that will fire you for smoking on your time. Employment is at will in most parts of the US.