Apple sued over keyboard design

[Queen6]

Laptops offer the advantage of portability but I am nervous about taking my 2017 MBP into the garden so that I can sit in the sun while I use it. So, I want to take care of mine but where do you stop ?

As long as the hardware is fundamentally sound you'll have no problems. My notebooks travel with me globally by whatever means available and they have always faired well. All I have is decent bags, with the systems being used where they are needed.

Q-6

 

[CaptRB]

Definitely? Since when? Mine still works which throws a wrench in that theory. Plus the countless others who aren't complaining.

I was one of the "MacBook Pro defenders" back when I had TWO 13" and one 15".

One by one they had issues with the keyboards. The 15" was still fairly new when the B key and spacebar went bad. Apple wanted to fix it, but a few honest folks at Apple told me directly that the issue would return. Having someone at Apple also helped me get the whole story.

The keyboard cannot handle much debris. While failure isn't certain, it's more than a little likely. How likely? Well, my friend at the Board of Ed was in charge or ordering quite a few of the new laptops in NY. In less than 4 months, more than a 3rd had to be sent back. After 6 months it became half.

3 grand for a bad notebook isn't something I'll stand for. I went to war with Apple, wrote letters, visited the store multiple times and recorded info. I contacted BBB and posted on their forums (some of which were removed by Apple, by I then posted screenshots of the deleted posts). Slowly I got higher up the food chain and I guess Apple decided to shut me up.

They refunded me in FULL + 600 dollars (it may have been 650). The MacBook Pro was replaced with a new iMac i7 with SSD and a MacBook Air. And that's what I'm using now.

BTW: When my new iMac with SSD was shipped, it arrived with bad memory slots and I had to get THAT replaced as well!

Apple should be ashamed. It's fairly obvious that they knew they had a lemon and sold it anyway. I know for a FACT that service was instructed to claim they "knew of no failures with keyboards" even as they flooded in. I was told this directly by two people at Apple.

I'd love to buy a nice new MacBook Pro, but I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole with the current design.


Rob

 

[Falhófnir]

Laptops offer the advantage of portability but I am nervous about taking my 2017 MBP into the garden so that I can sit in the sun while I use it. So, I want to take care of mine but where do you stop ?

If you’re not going to move around with it, a desktop is much, much better value - which is where Apple has really fallen down with making these machines so highly strung people feel the need to baby them. That is the main sticking point for me, I really can’t be doing with a machine I’m too paranoid to just get on and use because it might break

 

[project_2501]

I was one of the "MacBook Pro defenders" back when I had TWO 13" and one 15".

One by one they had issues with the keyboards. The 15" was still fairly new when the B key and spacebar went bad. Apple wanted to fix it, but a few honest folks at Apple told me directly that the issue would return. Having someone at Apple also helped me get the whole story.

The keyboard cannot handle much debris. While failure isn't certain, it's more than a little likely. How likely? Well, my friend at the Board of Ed was in charge or ordering quite a few of the new laptops in NY. In less than 4 months, more than a 3rd had to be sent back. After 6 months it became half.

3 grand for a bad notebook isn't something I'll stand for. I went to war with Apple, wrote letters, visited the store multiple times and recorded info. I contacted BBB and posted on their forums (some of which were removed by Apple, by I then posted screenshots of the deleted posts). Slowly I got higher up the food chain and I guess Apple decided to shut me up.

They refunded me in FULL + 600 dollars (it may have been 650). The MacBook Pro was replaced with a new iMac i7 with SSD and a MacBook Air. And that's what I'm using now.

BTW: When my new iMac with SSD was shipped, it arrived with bad memory slots and I had to get THAT replaced as well!

Apple should be ashamed. It's fairly obvious that they knew they had a lemon and sold it anyway. I know for a FACT that service was instructed to claim they "knew of no failures with keyboards" even as they flooded in. I was told this directly by two people at Apple.

I'd love to buy a nice new MacBook Pro, but I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole with the current design.


Rob

Well done on persisting and winning.

Hopefully more "defenders" will give Apple the hard time they deserve.

Apple will always do what it can get away with.

 

[smirking]

If you’re not going to move around with it, a desktop is much, much better value - which is where Apple has really fallen down with making these machines so highly strung people feel the need to baby them.

I think some people are always going to treat shiny things like jewelry. I have a 2016. I don't baby it. It skids on surfaces. I don't use a case. It's fallen almost 3 feet off of a bed once.

Yet there are no obvious scratches or keyboard defects and my keyboard isn't exactly clean either. Luckily, I've only had a few intermittent issues with it. I definitely understand the keyboard issues even though my laptop is pretty much fine.

I think MacRumors just attracts a greater number of the laptop as bling contingent. I mean, you'll never find me going online looking to swap tips on how to make sure nothing coarser than microfiber ever makes contact with the beautiful aluminum skin of my space grey baby, but there are no shortage of conversations like that here. They're just overrepresented.

Apple's laptops have some issues right now, but I wouldn't say they're fragile. It's probably more that the quality isn't as consistent because I don't consider any laptop that survives a nearly 3 foot drop to be fragile.

 

[jerryk]

I think some people are always going to treat shiny things like jewelry. I have a 2016. I don't baby it. It skids on surfaces. I don't use a case. It's fallen almost 3 feet off of a bed once.

Yet there are no obvious scratches or keyboard defects and my keyboard isn't exactly clean either. Luckily, I've only had a few intermittent issues with it. I definitely understand the keyboard issues even though my laptop is pretty much fine.

I think MacRumors just attracts a greater number of the laptop as bling contingent. I mean, you'll never find me going online looking to swap tips on how to make sure nothing coarser than microfiber ever makes contact with the beautiful aluminum skin of my space grey baby, but there are no shortage of conversations like that here. They're just overrepresented.

Apple's laptops have some issues right now, but I wouldn't say they're fragile. It's probably more that the quality isn't as consistent because I don't consider any laptop that survives a nearly 3 foot drop to be fragile.

I think people are not expecting it to survive a 3 foot drop onto concrete, but expect the keyboard to not have issues. No one should have to baby it or clean it off often. Nor should you be expected to have to ever spend time with compressed air blowing under keys to un-jam or clear repeated keys. You need to be able to just use it, confidently without having a can of compressed air at your desk, or be concerned that you just eat some potato chips.

Come one Apple. We know you can fix this!

 

[_Kiki_]

"premium clickness" in pure form !

 

[tubeexperience]

from Louis Rossmann

 

[maflynn]

from Louis Rossmann

He goes out of the way to critizie apple, and as such, he's lost all credibility. He's not someone providing objective reviews, but ranting against apple for the sake of clicks

 

[TailsToo]

He goes out of the way to critizie apple, and as such, he's lost all credibility. He's not someone providing objective reviews, but ranting against apple for the sake of clicks

There are some valid criticism of Apple. Laptops are designed to be portable and work in different environments. If the keyboards are so sensitive to dust that they need to post a message about using compressed air to clean them out, that is a design problem. And the fact that had to make the keyboard a non-reparable part (replacing the whole top case) to make the unit fractionally thinner is a horrible, horrible choice.

It shows that design has become the only consideration. Cost or usability be damned. And that’s a big problem.

 

[maflynn]

There are some valid criticism of Apple.

No question, but when one person beats an anti-apple drum over and over, any valid crisitscm is lost. Its like the boy who cries wolf, people tune him out.

 

[TailsToo]

Can’t disagree with that, but Apple sure has made it easier in the last few years. :/

 

[macjunk(ie)]

He goes out of the way to critizie apple, and as such, he's lost all credibility. He's not someone providing objective reviews, but ranting against apple for the sake of clicks

No question, but when one person beats an anti-apple drum over and over, any valid crisitscm is lost. Its like the boy who cries wolf, people tune him out.

I think Rossman has backed himself technically every time he has criticized Apple. He keeps criticizing Apple cause there are that many things to criticize. The keyboards, the graphic cards and he has even demonstrated the quality of repair done by Apple. I am glad he is doing what he is doing and thankful. The only regret I have when watching his videos is my inability to pry myself out of the Apple ecosystem...yet.

 

[A_ardvark]

I think Rossman has backed himself technically every time he has criticized Apple. He keeps criticizing Apple cause there are that many things to criticize. The keyboards, the graphic cards and he has even demonstrated the quality of repair done by Apple. I am glad he is doing what he is doing and thankful. The only regret I have when watching his videos is my inability to pry myself out of the Apple ecosystem...yet.

My issue with Rossman is that he acts as though other OEM’s don’t make bad design choices or have hardware failures. He might be a very skilled technician, but he also makes a living fixing apple products and shouting about Apple’s design failures.

Even with the evident keyboard problems, my feeling is that Apple is a better product than most windows offerings. Is it perfect, no. Do I find some of their design decisions aggravating, yes. On the whole, they are responsive and have fixed issues I have had with dead pixels and malfunctioning ports without issue.

I’m not going to buy a MacBook until they fix the keyboards. They should also do out of warranty repairs for those affected. However, none of the other OEMs are perfect and many seem to have higher failure rates than Apple with less robust support.

 

[tubeexperience]

He goes out of the way to critizie apple, and as such, he's lost all credibility. He's not someone providing objective reviews, but ranting against apple for the sake of clicks

He backups what he said with evidences.

You may disagree with him, but he has a lot of credibility.

______________________________________________

A lot of the issues he complained about such as the dGPU failure on the 2011 MacBook Pro 15"/17" and the iPhone 6 Touch Disease were later acknowledged by Apple.
[doublepost=1527352912][/doublepost]

My issue with Rossman is that he acts as though other OEM’s don’t make bad design choices or have hardware failures. He might be a very skilled technician, but he also makes a living fixing apple products and shouting about Apple’s design failures.

Even with the evident keyboard problems, my feeling is that Apple is a better product than most windows offerings. Is it perfect, no. Do I find some of their design decisions aggravating, yes. On the whole, they are responsive and have fixed issues I have had with dead pixels and malfunctioning ports without issue.

I’m not going to buy a MacBook until they fix the keyboards. They should also do out of warranty repairs for those affected. However, none of the other OEMs are perfect and many seem to have higher failure rates than Apple with less robust support.

You can’t have cake and eat it too. Apple sells its PCs (Macs) at premium prices, so expectations are higher.

 

[A_ardvark]

He backups what he said with evidences.

You may disagree with him, but he has a lot of credibility.

Sorry, I think my response wasn't clear. I don't always disagree with him. I just think he doesn't always come off as unbiased, which undermines his efforts to act as a consumer advocate.

And yes, their prices are unreasonably high and create high expectations they can’t always realize. Lowering the price would go a long way to defusing some criticism.

 

[maflynn]

You may disagree with him, but he has a lot of credibility.

That's debateable and since we don't see eye to eye, there's no point going back and forth.

 

[Solomani]

That's because Apple would never allow this to go up to trial. They will most likely settle with the lawyers getting a million or two (still trivial for Apple) and all the customers in the class getting a $0.99 iTunes credit in addition to losing the right to sue Apple ever again.

I should have majored in Class Action Lawsuits.

 

[macjunk(ie)]

My issue with Rossman is that he acts as though other OEM’s don’t make bad design choices or have hardware failures. He might be a very skilled technician, but he also makes a living fixing apple products and shouting about Apple’s design failures.

Even with the evident keyboard problems, my feeling is that Apple is a better product than most windows offerings. Is it perfect, no. Do I find some of their design decisions aggravating, yes. On the whole, they are responsive and have fixed issues I have had with dead pixels and malfunctioning ports without issue.

I’m not going to buy a MacBook until they fix the keyboards. They should also do out of warranty repairs for those affected. However, none of the other OEMs are perfect and many seem to have higher failure rates than Apple with less robust support.

With all these issues they are having, what is great about you introducing a defect and then charging your customers a 'low price' to fix it? I talk about these 'defects' cause they almost guarantee you that your device is going to fail. Few years ago, when you bought anything from Apple, there was no such guarantee of failure unlike the ones you have today.

With the other manufacturers, the truth is we do not know cause there are so many of them. Also, other manufacturers do not make sweeping changes across their product line like Apple does. They usually try out the changes in one or two models in their portfolio.

I only look into Thinkpads and the one 'issue' I have with them is the fact that they keep PWM in their displays. Note that this is not a defect but simply an attribute of their display, albeit an attribute I hate. Nevertheless, dealing with Thinkpad support has been nothing short of exemplary! Have a look at this report as well. Lenovo is at 1. My personal experience dealing with their support has been great and I do not worry about it at all.

 

[tubeexperience]

And yes, their prices are unreasonably high and create high expectations they can’t always realize. Lowering the price would go a long way to defusing some criticism.

̶W̶e̶l̶l̶,̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶r̶y̶ ̶s̶i̶n̶g̶l̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶s̶u̶e̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶c̶a̶t̶c̶h̶ ̶d̶u̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶d̶u̶c̶t̶ ̶t̶e̶s̶t̶i̶n̶g̶.̶

What it needs to stop denying, denying, denying and acknowledge and fix the issues.

 

[Queen6]

Well, not every single issue can be catch during product testing.

What it needs to stop denying, denying, denying and acknowledge and fix the issues.

This is the very worst aspect of Apple they knew about the iPhone 6 issues and Apple knows about the issues the new keyboard would bring yet Apple proceeded with obvious instruction for it's staff to blatantly lie to it's customers. At best such behaviour is mendacious literally, dismissing their customers with absolutely no regard.

Yes the experience is well groomed and acted, yet the facts remain. Frankly Apple deserves to be sued and punished accordingly, sadly it wont and Apple will continue with it's shallow behaviour...

Q-6

 

[torana355]

No question, but when one person beats an anti-apple drum over and over, any valid crisitscm is lost. Its like the boy who cries wolf, people tune him out.

Sure, but most if not all of his criticism towards Apple are justified.

 

[Ma2k5]

Well, not every single issue can be catch during product testing.

What it needs to stop denying, denying, denying and acknowledge and fix the issues.

It’s not that issues aren’t catched - but the decisions made around it. A lot of decisions around known issues are driven by businesses needs rather than user needs I’m afraid. Some things are too costly to change or fix. This isn’t just Apple, but majority of companies - including companies I work for and have worked for in the past. It is not often issues are not known by the company (as testing is usually quite exhaustive) - unfortunately it isn’t up to the development and QA team how a release is scheduled. For example, Apple knew the iPhone 6 bends more easily than the 5 series prior to release, but made a business decision not to change the design (of course, until the 6S...).

However, Apple are not like other companies in that they are very successful and have an almost unlimited supply of money - you’d think they would tank some business/resources to maintain or improve their reputation of delivering quality, working, functional products.

Apple could survive losing out on some money now and recoup it in the future due to delivering quality products and gaining user trust - something many other companies do not have the luxury to do (and are forced to knowingly shipping crap products to start getting revenue/return on investment - happens a lot in gaming industry for example).

 

[tubeexperience]

It’s not that issues aren’t catched - but the decisions made around it. A lot of decisions around known issues are driven by businesses needs rather than user needs I’m afraid. Some things are too costly to change or fix. This isn’t just Apple, but majority of companies - including companies I work for and have worked for in the past. It is not often issues are not known by the company (as testing is usually quite exhaustive) - unfortunately it isn’t up to the development and QA team how a release is scheduled. For example, Apple knew the iPhone 6 bends more easily than the 5 series prior to release, but made a business decision not to change the design (of course, until the 6S...).

However, Apple are not like other companies in that they are very successful and have an almost unlimited supply of money - you’d think they would tank some business/resources to maintain or improve their reputation of delivering quality, working, functional products.

Apple could survive losing out on some money now and recoup it in the future due to delivering quality products and gaining user trust - something many other companies do not have the luxury to do (and are forced to knowingly shipping crap products to start getting revenue/return on investment - happens a lot in gaming industry for example).

Repeat customers are the best customers.

Charging customers to fix known issues doesn't inspire repeat businesses.

The products that Apple sells have fat profit margins.

Would it really hurt to spend money, time to time, to fix known issues?

 

[Ma2k5]

Repeat customers are the best customers.

Charging customers to fix known issues doesn't inspire repeat businesses.

The products that Apple sells have fat profit margins.

Would it really hurt to spend money, time to time, to fix known issues?

It always hurts to fix known issues - if you work in engineering, design and development you’ll know what I mean - nothing is really a quick change, but an expensive process - sometimes months of work depending on the issue. When you have to meet certain internal deadlines, you have to make tough decisions.

Sometimes people make wrong decisions - sometimes people gamble on the issue not being reported too often for example (eg the iPhone 6 bend gate).