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I don't think everyone here thinks Apple is wonderful, and that we've all drank the kool-aid. Apple owns the software, therefore they have the right to tell Psystar that they cannot pre-install it on their machines; period. If Joe Blow wants to go out and buy a DELL, then buy a copy of OS X and try to install it, and make it work, I don't think Apple cares. It may not be completely legal in terms of the EULA, but the guy isn't trying to make money off it, or compete with Apple. Psystar on the other hand is, so Apple has every right...

Just because they made it work in Intel chips, doesn't mean any/all company's building Intel based systems can pre-install OS X and resell. I don't know why this is so difficult to understand????
 
You say this as if it were true, conveniently forgetting that there are countless devices that have embedded and/or proprietary software. There's nothing illegal about it at all.

You don't think Apple haven't thought this through?

I say it like I see it, but only a court can decide if it's true. Given Apple's 'big fish' nature compared to Psystar, it'll probably never even go to court. They're hoping they can force them out of the picture by monetary means and unfortunately, they're probably right. Notice how their suit is not about the Eula, but attacking a copyright violation. I already found a PLD case where they would have lost outright by precedent if they didn't file it as a copyright case ( http://www.svmedialaw.com/technology-recent-9th-circuit-copyright-misuse-case.html ) so I'm sure Apple IS thinking it through as best they can to avoid outright losing by previous legal precedent. I still believe they're on shaky grounds due to their monopoly of the hardware for OSX market. People argue that you can buy a Windows machine, but that's an argument about buying an operating system, not the hardware as Apple's own Boot Camp proves. I can run Windows on a Mac (proves it's a clone x86) but I cannot run MacOSX on a clone? That's clearly an artificial limitation as Psystar (and various Hackintoshes) have proven. They've also proven to be reliable, which some say would not be the case if there were real hardware differences.

Embedded software generally implies unique hardware. Current Macintosh hardware are Intel clone technology with EFI and an artificial software check against a security chip. There is nothing unique about Macs anymore except their cases so I don't think you can make a direct comparison between an embedded OS on a particular phone or other device (or even something like the iPhone) to MacOSX.

Personally, I think you should be able to put whatever operating system you want onto whatever hardware you want be it a personal computer or a phone. Software and Hardware are two different markets and should be treated as such. Clearly, corporations that stand to make money by preventing such things are going to disagree. That does not, however mean such things are in the best interest of the public and it is the public (We The People) that are supposed to matter, not lobbying or special interest. But as I'm sure you well know, this is a problem in the United States as well as many other countries where the government is being influenced by those that have money when they are supposed to be representing their constituents and their best interests.

It's a shame that the court system is also influenced by money as those that have it stand a much better chance of 'winning' in court than those that do not have it, regardless of ethics. Thus, someone who is guilty of something may 'win' even if they're guilty and vice versa. I'm sure we can all think of a few famous cases where most people believe the other person got away with it or won in criminal court but lost in civil court despite the contradictory logic of such a thing.

So yes, I think Apple will probably 'crush' Psystar by virtue of having a lot more money and resources. No, I don't think they could win if Psystar had the same resources.
 
Unfair competition? Thats stupid! Why not sue Microsoft under that, too?

Asking them to recall all the Pystar computers is stupid, too, I highly doubt they will get away with that.

the problem is that they're obligated to push for all these things in order to preserve their assets, in other words: they can't appear soft at all, lest some other time in the future someone finds away to twist it to their advantage.

and yes of course they're going to ask for a recall. they're technically illegally sold machines.
 
Really, most of the pro-Apple arguments on here boil down to Apple is allowed to rip-off people all the want because they're Apple and we worship Apple here! <Snip>

Sure, you can cheer Apple on and gloat with glee at the thought of Psystar going away, but you're really only harming your own choices and pocket book when you do so and saying you really do prefer living in Russia or China (where choices are limited artificially across the board) than the Western World where free competition is supposed to be the norm. Right now Apple has competitors for its Operating System (that would be Windows and Linux) but it does not have ANY competitors for its hardware...until Psystar that is. So it's clear why they'd want to protect that money-making front, but that doesn't make it ethically OK or even legal to have that monopoly on hardware for OSX.

Absolutely! Right ON! Plus 10!

It is absolutely wrong for Apple to force us to buy their products! Break free and get out of Bondage NOW! Buy a Motorola Phone! Buy a Dell! Get Linux and be FREE!!!
:rolleyes:
JJ
 
Notice how their suit is not about the Eula, but attacking a copyright violation.

Not exactly, it's about a number of things including breach of contract and trademark infringement, all of which falls under intellectual property law:

There's a section that should be mentioned:

In April, 2008, without authorization from Apple, and in violation of the terms of the Softare License Agreement governing the use of Mac OS X softare and Apple's intellectual property, Psystar began selling in commerce a computer named the OpenMac which apparently runs a modified, unauthorized, version of the Leopard operating system.

Thereafter Psystar changed the name of its product to Open Computer, but continued to sell it with the Leopard operating system, without authorization from Apple. Psystar sells its computers online and ships them throughout the United States, including into the Northern District of California.

Psystar's Chief Executive Offcer has been quoted as saying that Psystar has sold "thousands" of these computers. In addition, without Apple's permission or consent, Psystar makes copies of, and offers to customers for download from its website, ww.psystar.com. "updates" to the Leopard softare that are either direct copies of Apple-generated updates and/or unauthorized modified versions of softare updates from Apple.



There's no such thing as 'a market for OS X'. Apple created it and own it lock, stock and barrel. Psystar are in deep trouble and they know it.
 
Looking more like Microsoft everyday, and making deals with the devil

Hmmm.... what does needing favors from Bush-appointed judges to favorably resolve lawsuits to maintain hardware monopolies, iPhone service provided with AT&T, and no immunity from telecom (including notably, AT&T) spying for the gov, and a recent spate of suspicious Mac OS trojans all add up to?

Poison apples. :apple::(

Not that PC's are any better, and far worse. But old-time mac before iPod and iPhone?

Priceless. And gone forever.
 
I agree with everything MagnusVonMagnum has said!

My next computer is gonna be a Sony unless you give people what they want, you bastards Apple!

To annoy you even more, Steve, I will install OSx86 on it :D

EDIT: Agree with xbjllb's last post, too!
 
We need to show gratitude to Apple for repeatedly taking thousands of dollars of our money? This is a business and comp...electronics company not a religion.

Some of us realize that, Ben. I'm not so sure about others. I used to be an Amiga user once upon a time and I did have a certain 'loyalty' to the computer/operating system. But as time went on and Commodore squandered their chances to make it something better over time instead of languishing in 'used to be' state-of-the-art and then finally going bankrupt (which from a business standpoint they probably deserved), I quickly learned to separate my feelings for hardware, software and the company making it. Apple is a name. Steve Jobs is a rich man. Neither dictates whether I 'like' OSX or not and neither does the current hardware I'm running it on or else I would never upgrade to something better or different. It's the operating system itself that matters, not whom made it, sells it or packages it with a given piece of hardware.

Clearly, others on here don't view things that way. They see OSX, Apple and the hardware it runs on as one and the same thing and thus if they like OSX, they therefore also like Apple, Steve and their personal iMac like it's a member of the family. It's hard to argue against that kind of love, yet it's completely nonsensical to those of us that recognize it's the operating system that is cool, not the hardware it runs on or the case it's put in or the man that's selling it to me. Steve Jobs for all his input didn't write OSX. It's the product of many programmers' efforts, some not even part of the company (Darwin is or at least has been Open, unlike Cocoa). Can I like Linux without worshiping Linus Torvalds? Yes, I think so. Do some people worship Linus? In a way, yes, I think some do or at least idolize him. Linus, for all his work, though is NOT the sum total of Linux.

All of this comes down to the question of whether one believes you should be able to run a given operating system on whatever hardware you choose (within its ability to run on a given hardware platform) or whether you believe a company or even an individual should be allowed to dictate every facet of your behavior if you buy their product. To a large extent, this is about a difference in opinions or viewpoints and that is harder to argue than a sheer fact type situation. In untested laws, it comes down to how you think a law should be interpreted or even written or if a new one should be passed to address it. It does not answer whether such a law is 'good' or not because in something like this, it's a matter of opinion. Some people like Communism and some don't. How do you argue with someone that likes it? You give your own opinion and reasons for not liking it. Well, that's not about facts; that's about preferences.

And when it comes down to arguments about 'laws' that's an argument about what is written, but not necessarily about what is right (ethics). Some people care more about laws and others more about ethics. Personally, I find myself more in the latter category because what good is a law if it's not morally in line with my own ethical values? Before someone argues you can change laws, just try and do it some time. There are outdated and somewhat crazy sounding laws on the books in many cities still because no one repealed them. It's not so easy to do. When you have senators and house members that don't even READ the laws they are passing (which are often thousands of pages long in legal speak), it's not hard to see where and when things seem to go wrong. Even Supreme Court cases often result in 3/4 or 4/3 type rulings. When they highest court in the land can't even agree on something, you KNOW something isn't right. It means people disagree on something. Unfortunately, you can't just go and create a country where people will agree with you on everything. It just doesn't work that way. There's not enough space on the Earth.

Sadly, this will come down to Apple having money and Psystar having not so much and so they will lose by default since the legal system in this country often requires you being rich to win in civil cases or at least the lawyer has to stand to win a huge cut for you. Here, the only thing Psystar can win is the right to keep selling cheap PCs with OSX installed...hardly an incentive for a big name lawyer to jump on the bandwagon.
 
I don't think everyone here thinks Apple is wonderful, and that we've all drank the kool-aid. Apple owns the software, therefore they have the right to tell Psystar that they cannot pre-install it on their machines; period. If Joe Blow wants to go out and buy a DELL, then buy a copy of OS X and try to install it, and make it work, I don't think Apple cares. It may not be completely legal in terms of the EULA, but the guy isn't trying to make money off it, or compete with Apple. Psystar on the other hand is, so Apple has every right...

Just because they made it work in Intel chips, doesn't mean any/all company's building Intel based systems can pre-install OS X and resell. I don't know why this is so difficult to understand????

You are entirely too logical. The proletariat must arise! All the bad people making money must give it all away! Everything should be free!
 
Come on, people, let's use those brain cells...

Hackintosh'ers won't cause the OS X activation because a good number of them purchase a legitimate copy of it. I would suspect that a far greater number downloads and installs 10.x updates on their legit Macs.

Regardless, you can't blame hackintosh'ers because Apple created them by offering ridiculously narrow hardware configurations. Who's to stop a user anyway from purchasing OS X, saying "to hell with the EULA" and installing it on one's own generic hardware? Everyone doing the procedure should know that by breaking the EULA, all they're really doing is releasing Apple from supporting your copy of it. There's nothing illegal about it.

Of course PsyStar was selling pre-hacked, pre-loaded systems, which is much different than a user hacking their own copy. (They should have created a tool to allow a user to easily hack their own 'tosh using the included retail DVD.) It's no surprise that they're being sued.

Despite what the opposition says, Apple does (at this point) has the right to maintain their vertical monopoly. Likewise, users individually have the right to revolt by rejecting the EULA and installing OS X on non-Apple hardware (at the cost of losing official Apple support). I think these are both things we can agree on. That being said, what's the problem here?

BTW, I still say Apple could've averted the OSx86 movement altogether by continuing to offer a ~$1499 tower like they always used to.

-Clive
 
I used to be an Amiga user once upon a time and I did have a certain 'loyalty' to the computer/operating system. But as time went on and Commodore squandered their chances to make it something better over time instead of languishing in 'used to be' state-of-the-art and then finally going bankrupt (which from a business standpoint they probably deserved), I quickly learned to separate my feelings for hardware, software and the company making it. Apple is a name. Steve Jobs is a rich man. Neither dictates whether I 'like' OSX or not and neither does the current hardware I'm running it on or else I would never upgrade to something better or different. It's the operating system itself that matters, not whom made it, sells it or packages it with a given piece of hardware.

All of this comes down to the question of whether one believes you should be able to run a given operating system on whatever hardware you choose (within its ability to run on a given hardware platform) or whether you believe a company or even an individual should be allowed to dictate every facet of your behavior if you buy their product. To a large extent, this is about a difference in opinions or viewpoints and that is harder to argue than a sheer fact type situation. In untested laws, it comes down to how you think a law should be interpreted or even written or if a new one should be passed to address it. It does not answer whether such a law is 'good' or not because in something like this, it's a matter of opinion. Some people like Communism and some don't. How do you argue with someone that likes it? You give your own opinion and reasons for not liking it. Well, that's not about facts; that's about preferences.

Actually, it comes down to whether or not a company has the right to do with its products whatever it chooses. In a free market, does not the producer have the right to choose? All the distinctions between hardware and software and silly claims that supporting apple's position is nothing short of worshipping Steve Jobs are completely erroneous. If Apple wants to hurt itself in the same way that Commodore did, then they have the right to do so. To say that to side with Apple is like siding with an oppressive communistic state is such a silly thing. Please don't be silly.

I think the real issue is that you still are hurt over the demise of the Amiga. I understand. I still long for Ecco... maybe we should start a support group... :)
 
Not exactly, it's about a number of things including breach of contract and trademark infringement, all of which falls under intellectual property law:

All you're really telling me there is that Apple dictated they can control whom does what with the product they're buying and they've said you can only run their operating system on their clone hardware and no one else's. If that doesn't spell "monopoly" I don't know what does.

There's no such thing as 'a market for OS X'. Apple created it and own it lock, stock and barrel. Psystar are in deep trouble and they know it.

There isn't? That's odd. I seem to be using it here on a 7 year old machine that I could have installed Linux on instead. Where did I get it from if there's no market for it?

Someone created the cell phone market. Someone created the automobile market. Someone created the personal computer market. But does that mean they get to be the only player in that market? And because they wrote a Eula that says so? I can go buy OSX in the store, but I can't install it on my PC and it's because Apple says so? So can I write a license that says you have to give me all your possessions if you drink the milk I sell and put it in a town where I'm the only supplier of milk and it's OK because I said so in the license? Fortunately, the world doesn't revolve around Apple and licenses are easily nullified where laws don't permit that behavior. This is why some believe Psystar has a case, IF they can afford to go to court. It's not like I'm a lawyer sitting here. Many news sites support that idea also. I didn't make it up. I can see that you disagree, but it's up to a court to decide (if it gets that far), not you or me.
 
Regardless, you can't blame hackintosh'ers because Apple created them by offering ridiculously narrow hardware configurations.
I disagree. Hackintosh'ers exist because Apple moved to Intel and therefore they thought "If they could, they would". Even if Apple had a hardware line that addressed every segment of the market, hackintosh'ing would still exist. Why? Because those nerds get satisfaction out of making it happen.
 
I don't think everyone here thinks Apple is wonderful, and that we've all drank the kool-aid. Apple owns the software, therefore they have the right to tell Psystar that they cannot pre-install it on their machines; period. If Joe Blow wants to go out and buy a DELL, then buy a copy of OS X and try to install it, and make it work, I don't think Apple cares. It may not be completely legal in terms of the EULA, but the guy isn't trying to make money off it, or compete with Apple. Psystar on the other hand is, so Apple has every right...

Just because they made it work in Intel chips, doesn't mean any/all company's building Intel based systems can pre-install OS X and resell. I don't know why this is so difficult to understand????

People are not listening.

They keep talking about the "END USER License" and the whole issue is about Psystar, who is NOT the END USER. They are a Systems Integrator/Reseller.

Psystar is going to get their butt kicked, anyways...
 
Regardless, you can't blame hackintosh'ers because Apple created them by offering ridiculously narrow hardware configurations. Who's to stop a user anyway from purchasing OS X, saying "to hell with the EULA" and installing it on one's own generic hardware? Everyone doing the procedure should know that by breaking the EULA, all they're really doing is releasing Apple from supporting your copy of it. There's nothing illegal about it.

Yeah, like when my mum payed for a legitimate copy of Vista for use with Parallels but found out the EULA prohibited it... Ya know what we did? We installed it anyway, Bill Gates can stick his EULA where the sun dont shine if he thinks people will pay for a more expensive version of Vista because a document tells you to!

Steve can do the same if he thinks he can get away with leaving this huge gap in the market, and Pystar proved that point to Apple, and lets hope they take the hint.
 
I said, "All of this comes down to the question of whether one believes you should be able to run a given operating system on whatever hardware you choose (within its ability to run on a given hardware platform) or whether you believe a company or even an individual should be allowed to dictate every facet of your behavior if you buy their product."

You then said:

Actually, it comes down to whether or not a company has the right to do with its products whatever it chooses. In a free market, does not the producer have the right to choose?

Didn't I just say the same thing above in the very message you replied to? The only difference between what we said is I think the consumer should have the right to make the decision what to put on his or her hardware while you believe the company should have the right to tell you where you can or cannot put that software. How do you argue about something like that? I'm for consumer rights and you're for corporate rights. Isn't that pretty much the difference on a theoretical level between a Democrat and a Republican...at least lately? In actuality, I'm an Independent. I don't let any party tell me how to vote.

As for your comments that my ideas are 'silly' and that I'm actually still upset about the demise of the Amiga 15 years later, well, I'll just leave that alone before things escalate as that's clearly designed devalue my commentary as worthless while elevating your own opinion to the level of fact when it's clearly a difference in opinion on whether you control what you do with the OS you bought from Apple or whether Apple controls you.
 
All you're really telling me there is that Apple dictated they can control whom does what with the product they're buying and they've said you can only run their operating system on their clone hardware and no one else's. If that doesn't spell "monopoly" I don't know what does.


Then you don't understand what a monopoly is or even have the first understanding of the basis of intellectual property law.

Apple are not interested in suing individual consumers, it's far too time-consuming and expensive to tackle a few thousand hardware geeks. Go and make your hackintosh, they don't care about you. But they're not going to let other manufacturers profit from the software that they own, and they're not going to stand by and watch their brand used without their permission.

It's irrelevant what other websites say, or how many people agree with you. It's not down to ethics or beliefs, either. There is no market for OS X because Apple solely own the product, not anyone else. It sits in a market with other computers and operating systems, all of which you are free to choose and use.
 
Someone created the cell phone market. Someone created the automobile market. Someone created the personal computer market. But does that mean they get to be the only player in that market? And because they wrote a Eula that says so? I can go buy OSX in the store, but I can't install it on my PC and it's because Apple says so? So can I write a license that says you have to give me all your possessions if you drink the milk I sell and put it in a town where I'm the only supplier of milk and it's OK because I said so in the license?

Stop being so silly! Actually what we are talking about is a market for computers. Apple is one of many who make products for this market.

The correct application of your example is that you develop a special cow - the VonMagnum Cow which produces superior milk. You spend alot of money developing special marketing and packaging as well and voila! You have produced a product called Magnus Milk which is produced exclusively using your special breed of VonMagnum Cows. Now you have a product (MagnusMilk) within a market (Milk). Your R&D and Marketing departments have done superior work when the consumers begin to perceive that MagnusMilk is its own market category. Something different from Milk.
 
I disagree. Hackintosh'ers exist because Apple moved to Intel and therefore they thought "If they could, they would". Even if Apple had a hardware line that addressed every segment of the market, hackintosh'ing would still exist. Why? Because those nerds get satisfaction out of making it happen.

Okay, fairly put. I'll accept that. The Hackintosh scene wouldn't be as huge as it is today, though, without Apple's "encouragement." Insanelymac (the hackintosh forums) have well over 200,000 members... which trumps MacRumors.

-Clive
 
The only difference between what we said is I think the consumer should have the right to make the decision what to put on his or her hardware while you believe the company should have the right to tell you where you can or cannot put that software. How do you argue about something like that? I'm for consumer rights and you're for corporate rights. Isn't that pretty much the difference on a theoretical level between a Democrat and a Republican...at least lately? In actuality, I'm an Independent. I don't let any party tell me how to vote.

As for your comments that my ideas are 'silly' and that I'm actually still upset about the demise of the Amiga 15 years later, well, I'll just leave that alone before things escalate as that's clearly designed devalue my commentary as worthless while elevating your own opinion to the level of fact when it's clearly a difference in opinion on whether you control what you do with the OS you bought from Apple or whether Apple controls you.

There definitely needs to be a balance. The issue is not whether or not an individual can put whatever OS he or she wants to on whatever computer he or she wants to. The issue is whether or not the company is required to allow another company to use what they have developed.

I'm sorry for the perception of devaluing your opinions. But it does seem silly to me to say that if someone agrees with apple's position that they are they same as communists.
 
Anybody else unable to get on Psystar's website? None of the links to their page seem to work anymore for me... I even googled them and can't get onto any of their product pages... Hmmm...
 
I already found a PLD case where they would have lost outright by precedent if they didn't file it as a copyright case ( http://www.svmedialaw.com/technology-recent-9th-circuit-copyright-misuse-case.html )

Magnus, that case doesn't say what you think it says. It is nowhere near. In this case, company A sued company B, and company B argued that A was guilty of "copyright abuse". The judge then said that you can only use a claim of "copyright abuse" as a defence if you are accused of copyright infringement, and A hadn't sued B for copyright infringement. The judge never even looked at whether the claim of "copyright abuse" was in any way justified, because that defence just missed the point. It had nothing to do with what B was accused of.

In the case that we are discussing now, Apple _does_ accuse Psystar (among other things) of copyright infringement, so Psystar _can_ claim as a defence that Apple is guilty of "copyright abuse". Not that it will do them much good.
 
the problem is that they're obligated to push for all these things in order to preserve their assets, in other words: they can't appear soft at all, lest some other time in the future someone finds away to twist it to their advantage.

and yes of course they're going to ask for a recall. they're technically illegally sold machines.

Nope, the hardware is sold legally, it is the software that is falling under the microscope for it being installed "illegally", potentially it could be argued that the OSX software should be uninsalled by the owner and the original media returned to Psystar who can then return it to Apple for a refund as it was obtained legally, but used "illegally".



Of course PsyStar was selling pre-hacked, pre-loaded systems, which is much different than a user hacking their own copy. (They should have created a tool to allow a user to easily hack their own 'tosh using the included retail DVD.) It's no surprise that they're being sued.

Really? And how is it different? Whether it be corporation or individual user both are violating the same agreement. What makes an indivual unique in that they can violate such an agreement without recourse from the vendor?

The only real difference is Apple can't be bothered wasting money chasing lots of individuals when it is much easier to go after a company, unless of course the individual is being too vocal and causing Apple pain, ie the court case against the Apple rumour website.
 
Yes, businesses do do it all the time. Sounds like you're a small business owner, so it's probably less.
Apparently you don't get the difference. No matter if it's a big corporation or a small one, switching to a different OS is NOT something a particular company does "all the time". Yes, at any given time, some companies are swtiching, but very few companies will be switing back or to a third one regularly. That's my point. It shouldn't be that hard to fathom. Oh, and no, I'm not a "small business owner" per se – I'm a pro user, needing it for work.
But medium to large businesses make the switch on applications regularly, as they do with hardware. No, it doesn't happen all the time with a single business. But it does happen with multiple businesses daily. If you don't believe it, then you don't read much.

I read plenty. At any given time, many companies will be swtiching, but it's seldom that the very same companies go back and forth between OS's and software on a regular basis. How hard can that be to understand? Oh, and trust me, I do read a lot.


Hats off to you for going with the ThinkPad. I'm sure you'll be happy, and it will serve you well. I'll let Steve know so he can sleep better tonight too...I'm sure he'll want to be kept up to speed...
Drop your sarcasm. The only reason I mentioned it was because you tried to shut everyone up, with the absurd remark that if people disliked something, they could merely choose differently. Knowing that that is not true for everyone, myself included, I gave you an example. The example was NOT to stuff it to Apple, I couldn't care less about multi-billion dollar corporations, but to show YOU that things aren't as simple as YOU make them out to be. :rolleyes:
 
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