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All of this comes down to the question of whether one believes you should be able to run a given operating system on whatever hardware you choose (within its ability to run on a given hardware platform) or whether you believe a company or even an individual should be allowed to dictate every facet of your behavior if you buy their product. To a large extent, this is about a difference in opinions or viewpoints and that is harder to argue than a sheer fact type situation. In untested laws, it comes down to how you think a law should be interpreted or even written or if a new one should be passed to address it. It does not answer whether such a law is 'good' or not because in something like this, it's a matter of opinion. Some people like Communism and some don't. How do you argue with someone that likes it? You give your own opinion and reasons for not liking it. Well, that's not about facts; that's about preferences.

Another thing this is about is belief in the free market. There are some of us who believe that having a choice is a good thing and a little competition will be beneficial to both the health of the OS and to keep Apple motivated. There are others who believe that Apple somehow has all the answers for everyone and we should blindly defer to their judgment.

Sadly, this will come down to Apple having money and Psystar having not so much and so they will lose by default since the legal system in this country often requires you being rich to win in civil cases or at least the lawyer has to stand to win a huge cut for you. Here, the only thing Psystar can win is the right to keep selling cheap PCs with OSX installed...hardly an incentive for a big name lawyer to jump on the bandwagon.

It depends on the judgement. When it comes down to it, this isn't about some sleazy basement computer company called Psystar, they have little to no future, this is about whether a Mac user has the right to choice. This is about whether a mainstream computer operating system can be tied to specific hardware. Depending on the judge, this could be a landmark decision.
 
Really? And how is it different? Whether it be corporation or individual user both are violating the same agreement. What makes an indivual unique in that they can violate such an agreement without recourse from the vendor?

In most countries there is a huge difference. An individual cannot be expected to understand all the legal details, so there are laws that protect you as an individual. If there are terms in a contract that could be considered to be unfair then these terms might just not apply. If you are a company (even if you are acting as the owner of a one-person-company) you are expected to understand the legal consequences of anything you do and you are bound by that.
 
You have to be very carfull about what a "modified Mac OS X" is Much os what Apple calls "Mac OS X" is open source softwae that anyone is free to use. In fact I'd say half of the cose inside Mac OS is BSD UNIX. Apple did add on a nice pretty user interface. The question is which part of Mac OS did Pystar modify? If it is BSD Unix then Apple is in trouble.

That said, my gues is that what Pystar is giving out is a combination of Apple and BSD code and it is the Apple bits that are the problem

You need to be aware that BSD (Berkely Standard Distribution) is not synonymous with FreeBSD. At one time, the BSD OS cost thousands of dollars, and was most certainly not open-source.

The MacOS is based on the Mach 5 kernel, and is in fact, intellectual property of Apple who paid $400 million to Steve Jobs for the NeXT OS (also known as NextStep). I hardly think your argument will see the light of day in court.
 
To all those who say I should "look up what a monopoly is" like I dont understand it, look at this from Wikipedia:

n Economics, monopoly (also "Pure oligopoly") exists when a specific individual or enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it.

Sounds like what Apple is doing with OS X to me.
 
There are some of us who believe that having a choice is a good thing and a little competition will be beneficial to both the health of the OS and to keep Apple motivated.


It has nothing to do with free markets or choice or competition. It's like you're arguing whether you should be able to buy identically-made Levi's from a different manufacturer... when you've got a choice of hundreds of kinds of jeans. Apple already are in competition for hardware sales with dozens of other computer manufacturers.

And more generally, this isn't some emotional argument about Apple fans or loving everything Apple do, which is entirely untrue for the majority of people here... it's about owning a product and having a reasonable right to place restrictions on its use and distribution.

Vertical integration is not a monopoly. Apple even let you run other operating systems on their own hardware.
 
How about we all stop arguing about the definition of monopolies and face the question I just posed:

Can anyone access any information about Psystar's site? It's been offline for a while...

I can't seem to get on anymore. Looks like they've vanished....

Probably hopped their boats in Miami and took off for international waters. :D
 
In most countries there is a huge difference. An individual cannot be expected to understand all the legal details, so there are laws that protect you as an individual. If there are terms in a contract that could be considered to be unfair then these terms might just not apply. If you are a company (even if you are acting as the owner of a one-person-company) you are expected to understand the legal consequences of anything you do and you are bound by that.

From which we can assume that the EULA is null and void as a person could not understand the requirements.
 
Really? And how is it different? Whether it be corporation or individual user both are violating the same agreement. What makes an indivual unique in that they can violate such an agreement without recourse from the vendor?

The difference is that a company cannot choose to break an EULA on behalf of a customer because the company is not the end-user! And by the way, there is no legal punishment for breaking an EULA.

-Clive
 
Apple had what, nearly 200 Apple 2 cloners. But they set up a bunch of methods to keep clone impact minimal -- but still had a massive fight on their hands.

Of course the Mac is about at that explosion level, so we might see Apple ramping things up quite a bit since these days a Chinese outfit can crank out million of Mac clones quickly.

Though Apple's threat to killing off resellers who supply software to these outfits is the only thing keeping this from happening. You send large orders here and we will nuke your account.

Though everyone joked that they would simply go to the Apple Store if this happened ... should be interesting to see who was supplying them thousands of copies of Mac OS X.
 
How about we all stop arguing about the definition of monopolies and face the question I just posed:

Can anyone access any information about Psystar's site? It's been offline for a while...

I can't seem to get on anymore. Looks like they've vanished....

Probably hopped their boats in Miami and took off for international waters. :D

I could not get on at all.
 
<snip>I agree with everyone else that Apple should make a $1,000, no-frills tower.<snip>

You all need to wake up from that dream of yours, because it'll NEVER happen.

One thousand screaming geeks... excuse me... "enthusiasts"... do not make a market. And no amount of that screaming will ever change reality, so you may as well get over it now.

To all those who say I should "look up what a monopoly is" like I dont understand it, look at this from Wikipedia:

<some blather from Wikipedia, the inaccurate, bureaucratic joke of an online "encyclopedia">

Sounds like what Apple is doing with OS X to me.

Armchair lawyers crack me up. Good luck trying to argue that one in court.

Offtopic: is this site ultra-slow today for anyone else?
 
It's like you're arguing whether you should be able to buy identically-made Levi's from a different manufacturer... when you've got a choice of hundreds of kinds of jeans.

No, incorrect. It's like liking a ass-pocket pattern on a Levi's jeans but liking the fit of Guess jeans. The users are taking it upon themselves to transplant the pocket of the Levi's to the ass of the Guess.

We're arguing that Levi shouldn't be able to prohibit users from modifying the jeans they purchased. PsyStar proponents argue that they should be able to sell the modified jean. None of the people arguing, however, would actually expect Levi's to support (replace) defective jeans, though.

-Clive
 
One thousand screaming geeks... excuse me... "enthusiasts"... do not make a market. And no amount of that screaming will ever change reality, so you may as well get over it now.

But you make a good point there, Psystar probably would have never really taken all that much from Apple. Apple already has a strong fan base of people willing to purchase their equipment. So regardless of Psystar breaking the law or not I really think that Apple probably shouldn't have gone after the company.

Doesn't matter though, as there will be people installing the x86 version of OS X and there will be other people that try the clone thing. Apple will continue to gain market share because they offer great products and people will continue to cry about companies like Psystar in Mac forums across the web.
 
Anyone who argues that there is any relation between OS X and Macs, other than them being sold by the same company, are simply wrong. Sorry. The bundling of Macs and OS X is utterly artificial.

Although I haven't seen the argument explicitly stated, I think a lot of you believe that Apple need to continue to bundle OS X and Macs or face bankruptcy. So even though the bundling is interfering with the free market forces, it's OK, because Apple is fighting for its life. I mean, who in their right mind would buy a Mac to run Windows on?

On the other hand, that no one would buy Macs if Apple's OS did not exist (or could be installed on anything) is a testament to the fact that Apple make (some) inferior hardware products. Thinkpads are of better quality than most laptops, and are more expensive, and Lenovo seems to be doing well. Why can't Apple compete? Well, the answer should be obvious.

Why do Apple make inferior products? Because it's profitable, and because they don't need to make better laptops (for example) as long as they can exclusively bundle it with a superior product, namely OS X. Is that a good thing for the consumer? I don't think so.

If OS X could be installed on anything, it would force Apple to compete on a level playing field with other computer selling companies, which would result in better, cheaper products and/or bankruptcy for Apple. Is the latter really at all likely?
 
I'd like to see how this plays out. I'm actually kind of hoping Pystar wins. If they do, I think the best way for Apple to do it would be to keep making OSX how they do now, but release the components that go into their computers to people at a fixed price, so it would cost as much to build a clone as it costs to buy an Apple machine. That way there's no hardware configuration issues to address, people can build their own machines, and only Apple is happy. I'm hoping they don't do that if Pystar wins, but I bet they would.
 
Let's face it, Apple's gonna shut down Psystar faster than Dateline NBC shuts down child predators, but ya know what ???

I bet the conviction rate ends up just the same, as in none. :D
 
According to TUAW, Apple is demanding Psystar recalls all OpenComputer's sold since April.

Also, one guy in the comments said this:
I'm sure Apple played it this way on purpose. If they were to order a cease and desist right away, Psystar would have just tried a different (false) loophole, but now, they have so much more to lose, what with all the shipping, refunding, angry customers, etc.

Well played Apple. And anyone who cries that Apple is being mean, you've never owned anything you try to make a living on.

http://www.tuaw.com/2008/07/16/apple-demands-psystar-recall-mac-clones/
 
I have been able to get on Pystar's site this afternoon. I am sad to see Apple use the legal route, but I can understand their fears. The Clones of the mid-90's hurt Apple's sales. I am not sure how I feel about this, Apple's computers used to be locked in with their own hardware, i.e. PowerPC, etc. Now they are using the same hardware as most PC vendors. The advantage of saying that the hardware is made by Apple is no longer vaild. Apple has to fall back on their OS and beauty of their machines. If Apple feels their OS is in danger, they have to respond.

By the way, I am so sick of all the fanbois who are so elitist and jump on anyone who desires a more economical Apple computer. Comments like we have to keep the riff-raff out are not very helpful and make you look like a pompous idiot.
 
Can I upgrade the video card in an iMac? If I already have a monitor, can I order an iMac without a monitor? Can I put in two or three more hard drives for RAID? How many PCI slots does an iMac come with?

Get the picture yet?

I am aware that you cannot make these modifications to the iMac, but that still doesn't answer my question. I would imagine the iMac should provide enough computing power for at least 5 years. I had an AMD 2400XP that did just that. 1GB RAM, 180GB harddrive space and as loud as hell. Still, it coped with all the audio tasks I threw at it. And of course, by the time five years came, technology had moved on so much the only thing I could do was upgrade the entire machine.
 
By the way, I am so sick of all the fanbois who are so elitist and jump on anyone who desires a more economical Apple computer. Comments like we have to keep the riff-raff out are not very helpful and make you look like a pompous idiot.

By the way, I am so sick of the posters who label others fanbois when they disagree with the poster's comments.

Most of the people who agree with Apple's decision would also agree if it was Microsoft suing Pystar.
 
Engadget has some commentary on the charges in Apple's lawsuit. The whole article is here for those interested.

Copyright infringement: According to Apple, Psystar modified and redistributed OS X without a license, so straight copyright law applies. This is probably a winning argument -- even if the EULA (which forbids modification and redistribution) is held invalid, redistributing a modified copyrighted work is a big no-no.

Contributory and induced copyright infringement: As we pointed out a while back, by building a business model around the knowing copyright infringement of its customers, Psystar is probably liable for contributory copyright infringement -- this is the same principle that MGM v. Grokster was decided upon back in 2005.

Breach of contract: This is the EULA violation claim. Contrary to what you may have read elsewhere, EULAs in general have been tested in courts many times and have been held enforceable in several states, including Florida, where Psystar is located. In addition, EULAs are currently valid in the federal Ninth circuit, where Apple's brought suit. It's true that there are some cases holding that EULAs are unenforceable and the Apple's Leopard EULA has never been litigated specifically, but this claim isn't nearly as shaky as it's been made out to be -- it's just not a big money-winner like a copyright claim.

Inducing breach of contract: Apple says Psystar "advised, encouraged, and assisted others" in violating the EULA. Considering that's the heart of Psystar's business, we'd say this one lives and dies with the main EULA claim.

Trademark infringement: Apple has registered trademarks on both "Mac OS" and "Leopard," and it says that Psystar infringed those marks when it advertised that the Open Computer could run "Mac OS Leopard" in a way that made it seem like it was an official product. We're not convinced that this is the strongest claim -- Psystar was basically marketing itself on defiance of Apple, not any kind of official support -- but we can see how a court would buy it, especially since Apple makes a big deal of how Psystar's subpar machines were causing harm to the OS X brand.

Trade dress infringement: This one is pretty interesting, actually -- Apple says that the Mac OS X user interface is well known to consumers and has become associated with Apple to the point where it is protectable trade dress -- and that Psystar infringed on Apple's trade dress rights when it shipped Open Computers that contained OS X. It's around this point where you get the sense that Apple's going for the jugular -- there's no way that any damages Apple gets from Psystar are going to cover the additional cost of litigating a claim like this.

Trademark dilution: Dilution is a special trademark protection reserved for "famous" brands -- Apple undoubtedly qualifies. It's a complicated doctrine, but basically Apple says that by using its trademarks, Psystar caused damage to its brand.

State unfair competition: Apple says Psystar violated California law by infringing its copyrighted works, specifically the California Business and Professions Code. We're not up on our California law -- any readers want to flesh this out for us? We'd say it's just a failsafe claim to at least get an injunction in case everything else gets thrown out.

Common law unfair competition: This is basically the same as the state unfair competition claim, only based on a different set of doctrines..
 
At least here, when I buy a cd (or a magasine or a book) I do OWN the product. I, however, do not gain the copyright.

Correct, you own the physical medium, not the content.

Do any other old timers remember Ma Bell? If you wanted telephone service, you had to lease one of their phones.

Maybe this will "ring a bell" with some of you.



Does Apple have similar business practices, i.e., requiring the purchase of Product A with the use of Product B?

Yes, but in that case, you could not get any other phone service in those areas. You CAN buy another computer.

And why would you care if they add an activation unless you planned on pirating the software?

Look at what happened with WGA, there were false claims of piracy all around, do you want to be left out of the next update because some server thinks your copy of OS X is pirated?
 
Yes, but in that case, you could not get any other phone service in those areas. You CAN buy another computer.

And with the switch to Intel you can also run another a rather large number of OSs, though you don't get a break for deleting the Mac OS off the drive.

If anything all a lawsuit will do is require Apple to refund $129 if you send your System Restore Disks back for a refund -- though that would require a database upgrade so you cannot pay $20 to have Apple send back replacements.

Don't think a lawsuit would require Apple to license the OS ... since there are alternatives in the marketplace.

---

Heck, the iPod is the closest thing, and they were asking for Apple to open it up in a way that would eventually crush the competition and make iTunes king.
 
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