Apple Surveying MacBook Pro Users About Headphone Jack and Other Ports

[Gudi]

Why USB-C in particular? ...

Because USB-C is the new universal port for everything and even the high-performance port Thunderbolt version 3 will be compatible. Every new PC comes with USB-C and every Android tablet or smartphone as well. It will replace not only HDMI, Headphone Jack, Ethernet etc. but also the mess that is old USB right now:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Cables_and_their_connectors

 

[villicodelirant]

It's built in an expensive factory in the U.S. It's a PR stunt to show Apple "can still innovate". Realistically, the price to performance ratio of the Mac Pro isn't even in-line with that offered by other true workstations.

That makes a lot of sense.
Car companies do that all the time.

As to answer your question, a majority of students all around NYC here use Macbook Pros. As to where they get them, Parents.

Okay, I am grown ass man but I want to be adopted by some NYC parents.
Still, that can't be where all the Macs go - or a significant portion thereof, even

Oh, and not to be sexist, just stating observations i've made, practically every female with a laptop in NYU is a rMBP. Guys tend to have more windows machines. Just an interesting observance.

I don't see how that's sexist. "Sexist" is when you hire a woman and underpay her.
Apple gets a lot of coverage on magazines like Vanity Fair that Dell... just doesn't.
Also it's got probably something to do with the gender gap in engineering fields (where sometimes an Asus gives you faster renderings on Windows-only software for less buck)

 

[ofarlig]

Why would I want to "dock" to a POS speaker? I use quality audio. That's unacceptable.

If you use quality audio you already use a digital out source, meaning a headphone jack is not needed.

 

[villicodelirant]

But if I wanted to leave the Mac, what is there? Windows? Ugh. Google Chrome? UGH!

Windows 7 is perfectly usable.
There is probably a Linux flavor for you out there, Gnome 3 is getting very good, bordering on Mac OS standards.

There is no shortage of options to work with, this is not 2003 when Apple was literally the only manufacturer that had an OS that wasn't stuck in the past (IRIX), completely broken (any Linux distro) or just a bad attempt at trolling (Windows XP).

In fact, a majority of people earn their bread with Windows machines and you don't see them sleeping on the streets.

I really hate having to be a Windows apologist on this forum, but... if you like the Mac it's okay (on a Mac forum I guess it should be), but you surely can buy a computer from another manufacturer and be done with it if you don't like Apple's offering.

Unless of course your livelihood depends on Mac-only software, then the whole point is moot anyway.
[doublepost=1474011185][/doublepost]

Come on Apple... Leave the jack... And when you're at it bring back the serial and parallel ports I miss those! Really honest. We don't need to move forward and upward. Let's stand still or go back. /s

Nonsense.
This is not a matter of forward/upward/back/sideways.
Apple is moving a feature that cannot be dispensed with - the DAC - outside the computer.

The question is whether this is a good idea or not.

Since it requires an external DAC and/or upscale headphones with an integrated DAC (or well, cheap headphones with a ****** DAC) without having added much except cutting on some costs... I'd say it's not a good idea, but I would love to be corrected if you could argue the opposite without resorting to vague words about "the future", "courage" and "progress".

 

[Xiroteus]

Future isn't here yet.

Apple is often "living in the future" to a point where they forget about the present....unless it is outdated ram, storage space, 5400 drives etc.... and not having blu-ray drive was to push more content on iTunes.

 

[ofarlig]

Nonsense.
This is not a matter of forward/upward/back/sideways.
Apple is moving a feature that cannot be dispensed with - the DAC - outside the computer.

The question is whether this is a good idea or not.

Since it requires an external DAC and/or upscale headphones with an integrated DAC (or well, cheap headphones with a ****** DAC) without having added much except cutting on some costs... I'd say it's not a good idea, but I would love to be corrected if you could argue the opposite without resorting to vague words about "the future", "courage" and "progress".

What is the problem in having a ****** DAC in the cheap headphones instead of a ****** DAC in the computer? If you today have a good setup you need an external DAC either way, if you have a bad setup it doesn't really matter what DAC is used since the audio quality is not really that good either.

I use bluetooth headphones while on the go, there are more than capable Bluetooth headphones up for the task. While at home I can use some sort of digital connection (these days mostly AirPlay).

 

[kasakka]

I'm sure the next thing they want to remove is those two USB ports. Which would pretty much end with USB to USB-C adapters permanently hooked to the side of the computer. As much as I hate the design of the old USB, it is still what all my peripherals have.

Their reasons for removing this are also completely stupid. I don't need my MBP to be any thinner than it is.

 

[dilbert99]

So what happens when everyone else abandons it in the next 2-3 years?

I don't mind others abandoning it, at least they will replace it with a standard port. Apple chose not.

 

[Jsameds]

I don't mind others abandoning it, at least they will replace it with a standard port. Apple chose not.

Do you not think MBP will have USB-C?

 

[Skoal]

So, what, it'll have a lightning port instead? Can they make the "competing for space" argument?

I see it as more likely they will utilize a USB-C port instead of lightning and include an adapter with the MBP like iPhone 7 does

 

[Mailia]

Clamshell mode implies you will be at your own desk. What are the odds of someone tripping over your power cable in such a situation?

Good enough when it's on the floor.

 

[Bonzodogtotherescue]

I feel like it would have been more smart to replace the lighting port with a USB-C since that seems to be the connection of the future. That way the transition would be a little more seamless once they release USB-C on everything.

I completely agree, especially since Apple has made already the switch to USB C on it's MacBook. Again it all comes down to money I think, Apple can license the Lightning port when on USB C they can't.

 

[villicodelirant]

What is the problem in having a ****** DAC in the cheap headphones instead of a ****** DAC in the computer?

None whatsoever, in these terms.

The problem, however, is that, in that case:

1. You can no longer plug regular headphones without Apple's dongle, which probably contains the same exact DAC that was conveniently built into the computer before.
2. You can no longer plug just any pair of earbuds or borrow them for a quick video call from your colleague unless you carry a dongle at all times.
3. Apple earbuds with an integrated DAC - probably, again, same exact quality as before - will have to include the DAC.
   Apple earbuds are okay if overpriced, but I find they don't cope with abuse well and last 6 months/1 year tops, like all non-"hi end" earphones.
   So you'll be throwing away a DAC evey 6 months and paying for a new one each time. Added costs and envinronmental footprint.

I feel that 2. in particular is important: the planet earth has spent the past 30 years using and manufacturing 3.5mm earbuds, they're ubiquitous.

So, to sum it up:

• I see precisely zero difference in quality but a huge loss in convenience for users of "regular" 3.5mm earbuds
• I see precisely zero difference in quality but additional costs and more waste/pollution for users of "regular" USB earbuds (Apple and non-Apple).
  
• I see precisely zero difference in quality and zero difference in convenience for people who already use a USB DAC/headphone preamp/hi-end headphones with an integrated DAC

I can't objectively see what's to gain from this except for those who somehow get bored if they don't have enough dongles.
A solution to a non-existent problem.

 

[cube]

It begins......

It continues...

 

[ofarlig]

None whatsoever, in these terms.

The problem, however, is that, in that case:

1. You can no longer plug regular headphones without Apple's dongle, which probably contains the same exact DAC that was conveniently built into the computer before.
2. You can no longer plug just any pair of earbuds or borrow them for a quick video call from your colleague unless you carry a dongle at all times.
3. Apple earbuds with an integrated DAC - probably, again, same exact quality as before - will have to include the DAC.
   Apple earbuds are okay if overpriced, but I find they don't cope with abuse well and last 6 months/1 year tops, like all non-"hi end" earphones.
   So you'll be throwing away a DAC evey 6 months and paying for a new one each time. Added costs and envinronmental footprint.

I feel that 2. in particular is important: the planet earth has spent the past 30 years using and manufacturing 3.5mm earbuds, they're ubiquitous.

So, to sum it up:

• I see precisely zero difference in quality but a huge loss in convenience for users of "regular" 3.5mm earbuds
• I see precisely zero difference in quality but additional costs and more waste/pollution for users of "regular" USB earbuds (Apple and non-Apple).
  
• I see precisely zero difference in quality and zero difference in convenience for people who already use a USB DAC/headphone preamp/hi-end headphones with an integrated DAC

I can't objectively see what's to gain from this except for those who somehow get bored if they don't have enough dongles.
A solution to a non-existent problem.

To me this is as good a time as any to shift to new technology. Headphone manufacturers will make headphones for whatever connection type is needed so getting rid of the 3.5mm will put a higher demand for other connection types which means more availiability. Yes I agree that there are not enough options yet to fully solve all problems, but that is the case whenever a new technology emerges, it needs to be adopted for all the options to appear.

Having the DAC in the headphones does come with some advantages. The user has more influence in the quality of the DAC. Someone who uses the standard Apple headset and thus do not care the slightest about audio quality can get the ****** DAC and low power AMP. Someone who wants higher audio quality can get more expensive headphones which has a good DAC and can get a higher power draw from the USB-C port than through a 3.5mm and thus deliver a much better experience.

To be honest I think Apple is kind of late with this move that did on the iPhone, multiple other phones have been released that does the same thing.

 

[villicodelirant]

double post, sorry
[doublepost=1474024790][/doublepost]

To me this is as good a time as any to shift to new technology.

But it's not new technology.
It's the same technology as before, arranged in a slightly more inconvenient fashion.
If you tear open the dongle you'll see a few passive components and a DAC IC from Texas Instruments or Maxim that's probably been in production since the late '90s.

Someone who wants higher audio quality can get more expensive headphones which has a good DAC and can get a higher power draw from the USB-C port than through a 3.5mm and thus deliver a much better experience.

Excellent. It's a bit of a corner case (I don't think a significant fraction of Mac users - including the non-nerds that don't voice their opinion on forums) do that.
But it's a wonderful idea, I'm all for it.

And why do you have to take the 3.5 jack away for that?
You just have to have a USB port.
Don't tell me you'd have to remove the 3.5 jack to make room for the additional USB port because you know and I know that's not an issue

To be honest, I find myself in agreement with: https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/07/courage/

Especially:

Audio is so simple to transmit in high fidelity that it can be done with a wire hanger. Using a powered, high-bandwidth data interface adds nothing but cost and complexity, and the space you save is minimal.​

and

The 3.5mm jack is robust, familiar, secure, well-documented, and so on — we’ve seen the argument play out over the last year. You know why it’s good: because it works reliably, worldwide, and with millions of devices. Without Apple’s permission.

See, it’s that last part that must bother them. The idea that someone, somewhere, is doing something with an iPhone that they haven’t anticipated, like making a thermometer or payment system or 3D scanner. Someone who hasn’t paid for a license to attach that thing to their phone.

Apple is taking the first step to make sure that never happens. They’re able to do this because no one can do anything about it. They’re in a position of immense power and they’re using that power to eliminate something good and replace it with something that makes them money. It’s not a conspiracy theory, it’s a business plan.​

 

[artman1033]

Hi Apple, in case you are reading this forum, I would appreciated it if you kept the MagSafe connection, SD card slot and headphone ports, in that order.


MagSafe connection is one of Apple's most innovative feature on the MacBooks. It's quick, safe, easy to connect and disconnect, tells you at a glance when your Mac is done charging --- all great features that Apple should hold on to!!

Without a doubt, the magsafe connector is the best feature.

 

[ofarlig]

But it's not new technology.
It's the same technology as before, arranged in a slightly more inconvenient fashion.
If you tear open the dongle you'll see a few passive components and a DAC IC from Texas Instruments or Maxim that's probably been in production since the late '90s.

I don't think we should have any analog outputs out of our units, with a digital connection we can get more power and more bandwith out of one port. We don't have to use USB for high quality audio and 3.5mm for low quality, everybody can use the same USB-C connection. Dongles are just an inbetween solution for people who need time to get used to where we are going, they will quickly be phased out.

Unbalanced analog ports are plagued by a myriad of problems, especially when they are connected to speakers on a different phase and whatnot. Many of these can be remedied just by going digital.

And why do you have to take the 3.5 jack away for that?
You just have to have a USB port.
Don't tell me you'd have to remove the 3.5 jack to make room for the additional USB port because you know and I know that's not an issue

Because phasing it out will create a higher demand for products with USB-C connections. People who do not think about things like this build their use cases around what is availiable to them and create a demand for it. For them to demand something else than the 3.5mm jack they are used to the jack needs to be removed, they are then forced to find a new solution.

This will even create a higher demand for bluetooth headphones and hopefully speed up higher bandwith bluetooth (or other wireless connection technologies) development and adoption rate.

I don't think things like these are easy or anything like this. There will be a period of inconvenience for many people, and added costs for purchases of new equipment.

 

[bitslap47]

'Pro Engineer'? Remind me again when DJ's and bands were called 'Pro Engineers'?
Also I didn't realise film editors and photographers were called 'Pro Engineers' either.

If you've never heard of a professional sound/video/studio engineer, maybe its another one of those US/UK terminology things?

Also, the DJs and Board guys couldn't care less if there is an adapter or not. They may whine at first, and then they will forget about it 2 minutes later when the Mac can still do it's job just as well as it always has and better than other equipment out there.

I'v never heard anyone say in those industries/jobs that they weren't going to use the best tool for the job just because an adapter may be needed. In fact, I see a lot of club DJs with ridiculous rigs and a million cables.

Honestly, if someone has worked in or around A/V in any capacity... the last thing that is foreign to them is adapters. There is an entire industry built around it.

I don't care if you call them Blue Popsicle, this isn't going to massively affect Apple's revenue from that group of people which is what you're implying.

 

[villicodelirant]

I don't think we should have any analog outputs out of our units, with a digital connection we can get more power and more bandwith out of one port. We don't have to use USB for high quality audio and 3.5mm for low quality, everybody can use the same USB-C connection.

I'm all for a universal data port!
(By the way, while we are at it let's be consitent and ditch lightning and thunderbolt )

But we are not talking about a data port, we are talking about the electrical connection between the DAC front end and the moving coils.
You can't by definition replace that with a digital connection, you can only kick the DAC out of the machine and connect via USB to your external DAC.

The question here is not "how to connect to your DAC", but "should your device include a built-in cheap DAC at all"?

I still find myself thinking that the answer is "yes, please".

I don't think we should have any analog outputs out of our units, with a digital connection we can get more power and more bandwith out of one port. We don't have to use USB for high quality audio and 3.5mm for low quality, everybody can use the same USB-C connection. Dongles are just an inbetween solution for people who need time to get used to where we are going, they will quickly be phased out.

I really don't think 50 years worth of 3.5mm jacks will be phased out that quickly, for that matter

Unbalanced analog ports are plagued by a myriad of problems, especially when they are connected to speakers on a different phase and whatnot. Many of these can be remedied just by going digital.

How many times have you accidentally inverted the phase on your 3.5mm earbuds lately?

I don't think things like these are easy or anything like this. There will be a period of inconvenience for many people, and added costs for purchases of new equipment.

Mind you, I'm all for ditching old data standards.
But here we are literally talking about removing the audio card from the logic board without adding anything new (USB is not "new" )

I don't see how having a cheap DAC soldered into every pair of cheap earbuds and needing a dongle to connect your old phones is going to make your life easier, give you better quality or save you money compared to... well, plugging your regular headphones into the handy built-in audio board.

I can see how it will make you buy more Apple accessories and dongles, though.

 

[Dave00]

I'm fine with getting rid of the headphone jack, but the SD slot is extremely useful for every photographer I know. There have also been some alternative uses for it as extra memory. Hope they don't cut it out.

 

[ofarlig]

I'm all for a universal data port!
(By the way, while we are at it let's be consitent and ditch lightning and thunderbolt )

Agreed, I want all USB-C ports. If Apple adds Lightning to the Macs I will say it is awful.

But we are not talking about a data port, we are talking about the electrical connection between the DAC front end and the moving coils.
You can't by definition replace that with a digital connection, you can only kick the DAC out of the machine and connect via USB to your external DAC.

The question here is not "how to connect to your DAC", but "should your device include a built-in cheap DAC at all"?

I still find myself thinking that the answer is "yes, please".

We are talking about a data port, even music is just data when you get down to it. A 3.5mm analog port does not suffer from bandwith constraints though.

I really don't think 50 years worth of 3.5mm jacks will be phased out that quickly, for that matter

I really think it will, the important part is what most of the users are using in their life.

How many times have you accidentally inverted the phase on your 3.5mm earbuds lately?

Not on earbuds, but when plugging a computer into these awful stereos that use 3.5mm some people still use you can get a lot of artifacts and humming.

I don't see how having a cheap DAC soldered into every pair of cheap earbuds and needing a dongle to connect your old phones is going to make your life easier, give you better quality or save you money compared to... well, plugging your regular headphones into the handy built-in audio board.

I can see how it will make you buy more Apple accessories and dongles, though.

Think of a world where every headphone uses say USB-C it would mean you can get an awesome pair of headphones and use them with any device and get nice sound quality without using a portable DAC/headphone amp for you iPhone or computer anymore. The same port you use can be used by someone with a cheaper pair of headphones. You could even have a small battery in your headphones as an emergency battery for your phone if you wanted to. It opens up so many more possibilities than the 3.5mm does.

Why do these discussions focus so much on how to recreate what we have today instead of trying to figure out how we can get the future to be? Imagine we were inventing a way to transfer your music from a device to your headphones/speakers and you were presented with the 3.5mm analog option or the USB-C option.
Would you really pick the option where the expensive unit (computer, phone) had a built in DAC that you the user had no control over, and which can deliver very low power to your headphones? Or would you choose something where the DAC is located in the cheaper unit (so it is easier to upgrade), where more power can pass both ways and you are shielded from various interference. Where you can not only pass the music but any data you wish at the same time.

The only reason we want to cling to 3.5mm is because we all have loads of expensive things that use it and it has been a standard for all of our lives. For me this is not a reason to keep using it, I say rip the bandaid off and use dongles until we have phased 3.5mm out.

 

[tmajamaki]

This is just getting ridiculous, I need more ports and plugs, not less. Stop over analyzing and just ship already, then make refinements and iterations for the next 5 years.

 

[dogslobber]

I still can't believe he said courage. Pushing the envelope, ok. We envision a wireless world, ok. But courage, come onnnnn lol

Courage is our nation's armed forces protecting us from terrorists. Removing a mandatory interface from the Apple phone, not so much.

 

[villicodelirant]

We are talking about a data port, even music is just data when you get down to it.

...

Think of a world where every headphone uses say USB-C

Okay, I thought of that world, and it's not the world we live in or we're gonna live in for... many years.

it would mean you can get an awesome pair of headphones and use them with any device and get nice sound quality without using a portable DAC/headphone amp for you iPhone or computer anymore. The same port you use can be used by someone with a cheaper pair of headphones.

You are using a portable DAC. Built into the headphones.
One for each pair.
That you replace yearly.
This is super uber wasteful.
This is insane.

I mean, the next step is probably tossing the whole phone away (after using it to club baby seals to death) and buying a new one when you run out of battery.

Not on earbuds, but when plugging a computer into these awful stereos that use 3.5mm some people still use you can get a lot of artifacts and humming.

That's a stupid idea anyway.
Line inputs have usually a much higher impedance and expect a much lower voltage.
They are simply not made to be connected to headphone outputs. Of course it sounds like horse poo.

Why do these discussions focus so much on how to recreate what we have today

Because that's how it will always be: until the end of time you will have to have a DAC feeding a preamp connected to the moving coils.

You can do this the easy, cheap, sensible way or the hard way...

Would you really pick the option where the expensive unit (computer, phone) had a built in DAC
that you the user had no control over, and which can deliver very low power to your headphones? Or would you choose something where the DAC is located in the cheaper unit (so it is easier to upgrade), where more power can pass both ways and you are shielded from various interference. Where you can not only pass the music but any data you wish at the same time.

I would choose the sane way, of course: a data port for connecting any fancy A/V device I can think of, including a multitrack, 16 channel, 24/192 audio interface and a regular jack for connecting my headphones to the on-board DAC, which provides sufficient quality for 99% of users (including those - probably a majority - that still have 128k MP3s around and don't notice the difference).

Note that there probably is an on-board DAC anyway, unless they do away with speakers entirely, so why not use it to drive your college kid's el cheapo headphones?

The only reason we want to cling to 3.5mm is because we all have loads of expensive things that use it and it has been a standard for all of our lives.

The reason I cling to it is because it is the sensible arrangement