Apple Surveying MacBook Pro Users About Headphone Jack and Other Ports

[ofarlig]

Okay, I thought of that world, and it's not the world we live in or we're gonna live in for... many years.

It will for sure go way slower if we think like you suggest we do.

Because that's how it will always be: until the end of time you will have to have a DAC feeding a preamp connected to the moving coils.

Doubt it, at some point we will move to not needing headphones at all since everything will be transmitted digitally to our brains. Might still need a DAC there though, who knows what we come up with.

I would choose the sane way, of course: a data port for connecting any fancy A/V device I can think of, including a multitrack, 16 channel, 24/192 audio interface and a regular jack for connecting my headphones to the on-board DAC, which provides sufficient quality for 99% of users (including those - probably a majority - that still have 128k MP3s around and don't notice the difference).

We are moving towards a one port for everything system, I dont really see the point in keeping the headphone jack as the only thing with a one use port while everything else moves to a one port solution. 99% of the users will not care if they use USB-C headphones or 3.5mm headphones once USB-C becomes the standard, and that will only happen if the 3.5mm goes. If you get rid of the 3.5mm you will be able to squeeze in an extra USB-C which is way more useful.

Note that there probably is an on-board DAC anyway, unless they do away with speakers entirely, so why not use it to drive your college kid's el cheapo headphones?

Of course there is most likely an on board DAC for the speakers so it is possible to use it for the 3.5mm but that will not get us forward.

The reason I cling to it is because it is the sensible arrangement

If you want to recreate the past 50 years perhaps, not if you want to find a way forward.

 

[themikedshaffer]

It's all coming together...the reason for the delay in shipping the revisions to the Macbook lines: not Intel, not screen technology or a command strip....they were waiting for the new wireless earbuds and the removal of the standard analog headphone jack from the iPhone 7. The move a few weeks ago was the first offensive of a campaign to reshape their line up around wireless and USB-C on their machines....

I'm now expecting a new MBP with no analog audio out, only USB-C, and an adapter, similar to but different from the Lightning adapter in the phone. It is clear that Apple sees the future as wireless audio "standard" and wired will come from docks/adapters. Similar to their stance on camera/memory cards...they're gone and if you need to dump pictures to your Mac, it should be wireless, iCloud or via some sort of adapter. And they're not "wrong"...they are taking a position that may or may not be the right move. Personally, I use wireless headphones on my machine exclusively and I've never slid a memory card into the slot of my current MBP or my MBA13....and they are both 2012 era machines. I believe that Apple is saying they are okay moving away from it because they feel there are more users like me than users that need these features. Much like many of their moves they've made historically... Again, they're not "wrong", statistics-wise but who knows in the end if it's the right move.

But most assuredly, the MBP and whatever else MacBook they intro in the next few weeks will not have Magsafe, the traditional headphone jack (which is both analog/digital in & out) and any sort of SD card slot. I'm betting on all USB-C, for charging, data out, video out, audio out, adapting of any kind.

 

[Grolubao]

The thing is I get that getting rid of the superdrive means a lot since it was occupying loads of space, but the headphone jack? It is tiny! There's simply no justification other than greed

 

[villicodelirant]

Doubt it, at some point we will move to not needing headphones at all since everything will be transmitted digitally to our brains. Might still need a DAC there though, who knows what we come up with.

Okay, I can't honestly tell if you are trolling, are being serious or are being sarcastic.
If trolling: A+
If sarcastic: I don't get it.
If serious: wth.

We are moving towards a one port for everything system, I dont really see the point in keeping the headphone jack as the only thing with a one use port while everything else moves to a one port solution.

Because it's not a data port.
It's that thing where you physically attach your tranducers to your amplifier.

99% of the users will not care if they use USB-C headphones or 3.5mm headphones once USB-C becomes the standard

I think some users will care about paying more for their crappy earbuds or getting crappier earbuds for the same buck.
But no, you're right, they will probably not care.

The idea of DACs being soldered with the earbuds and thrown away with the earbuds is still cringeworthy from an environmental/energy standpoint, even if users don't care, though!

If you get rid of the 3.5mm you will be able to squeeze in an extra USB-C which is way more useful.

Except that the MBP is already razor thing and has plenty of space already (remember how they used to fit an optical drive's loading mechanism on the side? ), so I don't see how you have to sacrifice something useful.

Of course there is most likely an on board DAC for the speakers so it is possible to use it for the 3.5mm but that will not get us forward.
<...>
If you want to recreate the past 50 years perhaps, not if you want to find a way forward.

[/QUOTE]

Not all changes are forward. Some are sideways, some are backward.
Removing features is usually backward.
Assuming that the dongle is free (it won't be) "putting the DAC in the headphones or dongle" I would consider sideways (as in "ultimately no difference"), but when you factor the environmental impact in, it's probably backward.

To be honest I don't understand how some posters are willing to justify the most outrageous cost-cutting ideas Apple comes up with in the name of "moving forward".

I mean, despite all those "Think Different" ads by buying from Apple you are not joining some revolutionary army that drives humanity forward, you are buying a computer.

If what I wanted was for humanity to "move forward" I would buy a $250 Acer machine and give the rest to cancer research, not waste my time with Apple products anyway...

 

[Mailia]

Because it's not a data port.
It's that thing where you physically attach your tranducers to your amplifier.

It's actually also a data port. It can pump out optical digital audio if needed.

 

[LordVic]

With my MBA 2011 really feeling it's age and a broken screen, and my Surface Pro 2 also showing it's age, I am in the market for a new laptop

I was thinking a MacBook Pro. But if it doesn't have a headphone jack, they will have killed another sale from me.

For a "pro" laptop, I demand at least 2 USB-A ports, a USB-C port or two, some form of dedicated display output, and a Network port would be perfect.

But if it doesn't have USB-A ports, or an audio jack, or some form of dedicated display output port, it's not a "pro"

 

[deany]

With my MBA 2011 really feeling it's age and a broken screen, and my Surface Pro 2 also showing it's age, I am in the market for a new laptop

I was thinking a MacBook Pro. But if it doesn't have a headphone jack, they will have killed another sale from me.

For a "pro" laptop, I demand at least 2 USB-A ports, a USB-C port or two, some form of dedicated display output, and a Network port would be perfect.

But if it doesn't have USB-A ports, or an audio jack, or some form of dedicated display output port, it's not a "pro"

you have not worries 3.5 will be included

 

[ofarlig]

Okay, I can't honestly tell if you are trolling, are being serious or are being sarcastic.
If trolling: A+
If sarcastic: I don't get it.
If serious: wth.

Why wouldn't that be serious? You said we would use DACs to move coils until the end of time, I doubt that since the logical step in some future would be to jack it straight into our brain.

Because it's not a data port.
It's that thing where you physically attach your tranducers to your amplifier.

I didn't say it was a data port, I said that sound is basically data and thus there is no problem using a data port for it.

The idea of DACs being soldered with the earbuds and thrown away with the earbuds is still cringeworthy from an environmental/energy standpoint, even if users don't care, though!

The same will be said a few years down the line if we keep the 3.5mm plug when most people use wireless. Waste of resources to build it into every unit.

 

[LordVic]

I didn't say it was a data port, I said that sound is basically data and thus there is no problem using a data port for it.


.

This isn't true.

Sound itself is actually a wave form. an analogue wave form, that our tympanic membranes in our inner ears vibrate to the wave-form in which our inner ear translates that to electro-chemical re-actions that the brain / nervous system understand.

We only store audio in digital format as a means of transportation and saving. Any audio device you own will still hvae to take that digital signal, and convert it via a DAC back to the analogue signal that you headphones can then play for your ears to pick up.

This is why a data port is a bad choice for audio. Providing a port with nothing but digital audio means you will have to put the DAC, AMP and other signal processing in some other place along the audio chain. If it's not in the device, it'll be in the earphones themselves in either a thicker section that includes the DAC and IC's, or in the earcups themselves before converting to analogue.

Thus making a digital port actually one of the worst ways of providing audio to your ears. its better for transferring audio from one device to another, but not for actually listening.

 

[ofarlig]

This isn't true.

Sound itself is actually a wave form. an analogue wave form, that our tympanic membranes in our inner ears vibrate to the wave-form in which our inner ear translates that to electro-chemical re-actions that the brain / nervous system understand.

We only store audio in digital format as a means of transportation and saving. Any audio device you own will still hvae to take that digital signal, and convert it via a DAC back to the analogue signal that you headphones can then play for your ears to pick up.

I agree that was not really 100% correctly described, sound is of course a waveform. But a waveform is when you get right down it it just a physical representation of data.

This is why a data port is a bad choice for audio. Providing a port with nothing but digital audio means you will have to put the DAC, AMP and other signal processing in some other place along the audio chain. If it's not in the device, it'll be in the earphones themselves in either a thicker section that includes the DAC and IC's, or in the earcups themselves before converting to analogue.

Thus making a digital port actually one of the worst ways of providing audio to your ears. its better for transferring audio from one device to another, but not for actually listening.

This is exactly why it is a good idea, it brings choices and cheaper upgrades to the table. Instead of buying a completely new computer when you want a better DAC/AMP you can buy new headphones.

 

[Mailia]

This is exactly why it is a good idea, it brings choices and cheaper upgrades to the table. Instead of buying a completely new computer when you want a better DAC/AMP you can buy new headphones.

You're not being serious, are you?

 

[PracticalMac]

★ Intel Wants to Replace 3.5mm Headphone Jack With USB-C Audio

★ Intel Touts USB-C as Future of Digital Audio as Apple Set to Ditch Headphone Jack

★ Woz Laments No Headphone Jack on iPhone 7, Sees USB-C as Future of Audio

How do you think this was going to end?

Apple will dump Lighting and install USB-C?

 

[Jbach67]

In recent weeks, Apple has been sending out surveys to users asking about MacBook Pro features, most notably the headphone jack. A survey question shared by MacRumors reader Blake asks "Do you ever use the headphone port on your MacBook Pro with Retina display?"

There are several other reports on Twitter from users who have been asked similar questions about the headphone jack, suggesting Apple is exploring the removal of the headphone jack in a future version of the MacBook Pro. Apple has eliminated the headphone jack from the iPhone, so it makes sense that the trend will continue for other products.

Apple is also asking users about battery life and other ports, including the SD card slot. One question asked "How do you upload photos from a digital camera or phone to your MacBook Pro with Retina Display?"

Based on a leaked MacBook Pro shell, the upcoming MacBook Pro will include four USB-C ports and a headphone jack, with Apple doing away with all other ports on the machine. If the shell is an actual part, the machine will not include an SD card slot, HDMI port, USB-A port, or a MagSafe connection.

The design of the MacBook Pro that's launching in 2016 has already been finalized ahead of its release, and Apple is likely to continue using the same design for several years going forward, so the removal of the headphone jack is probably not something that MacBook Pro users need to worry about for the foreseeable future.

Rumors suggest Apple will release a redesigned MacBook Pro with a redesigned chassis and an OLED touch panel as early as October.

Article Link: Apple Surveying MacBook Pro Users About Headphone Jack and Other Ports

I want the headphone jack. End of story. However, I want to update my 15 inch MBP sooner rather than later. If Apple is only putting this survey out at this late date, I don't see how they'll have an October event and release new machines with or without the jack before Xmas season. I presume that level of manufacturing detail should be settled by now and they should be going into production. I can only hope they are thinking about the next update - And if Apple is wondering, I'd take an new design MBP with no jack in October/November over one with the jack in January or later. I'm a bit worried they're thinking about further delays waiting for the imminent launch of the next intel chip, so while we're waiting, lets ask about the jack.....For music production, I'm mostly going through USB anyway, and my mixer has a 1/4 inch jack with an adapter. But it's nice to be able to plug in any of my headphones/earplugs or speakers into that 3.5 mm jack when I'm not set up for recording.

 

[Daniel Reed]

I'm just saying: Apple and Tim (alone) won't kill the "Personal Computer"...

I hear you, and agree; however, Cook's Apple is pushing to accelerate the transition.

All the work Apple does to shrink and thin down electronics, as well as dramatically improve computing performance in their AX and misc chips, all points to the goal of eventually eliminating their "need" to build "Personal Computer" for us.

I suspect Cook's attitude is, if you don't like it, go use windows/linux/whatever.
Not too unlike what Apple already does in their own data centers w/ HP rackmounts.

 

[villicodelirant]

Why wouldn't that be serious? You said we would use DACs to move coils until the end of time, I doubt that since the logical step in some future would be to jack it straight into our brain.

I swear still I can't tell if you're being facetious or... well, you are a character from a William Gibson novel.
I mean, this wouldn't even fly in a scifi novel these days, it would be called out as "too naive and too cliche".

I didn't say it was a data port, I said that sound is basically data and thus there is no problem using a data port for it.

Sound is not "basically data".
Sound is air vibrations, and you use a transducer to produce those by turning aptly modulated electric power into work.
Albeit low power by all standards, the system comprised of headphone amplifier and coils is still power electronics, not signal electronics.
That's the fundamental difference with a data port.

You can replace a car's analog dashboard with a computer, but you can't just tear off the drive shaft off a car and replace it with a wire and a generator and a motor on each side of the wire.
Well, you can, but it's stupid.

The headphone jack is a drive shaft, not an odometer.

The same will be said a few years down the line if we keep the 3.5mm plug when most people use wireless.

I pray the day where most people use an array of tiny batteries, radio transmitters, active amplifiers and DACs built into their earbuds to replace a $0.01 per metre cable never comes.

It would be the day the Western civilization would have outlived its usefulness.

Waste of resources to build it into every unit.

The plastic 3.5mm jack is completely insignificant in the raw material, energy costs and environmental footprint of a laptop.
A dac and preamp is very significant in the raw material, energy costs and environmental footprint of a pair of earbuds.

Also a laptop lasts no less than 5 years, a pair of earbuds 5 months...

 

[ofarlig]

You're not being serious, are you?

Of course I am, I rather buy new headphones to get these features than a new computer.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Now we have a CEO who doesnt use a computer, lives off an iPad, and has no connection with the outside world apart from bean counting to maximise potential profits. This has me very scared, I love the Apple ecosystem, but I also need proper computers, not stylish gadgets.

What bugs me is that Tim is Steve Jobs' hand picked successor. Too bad Steve didn't pick someone a little more like himself and a little less like a Fortune 500 CEO.

 

[Rossatron]

So you ever bemoan the fact that your Lightning cables don't have MagSafe?

If Apple can give us sufficiently long battery life in the laptops, our charging habits could begin to mirror those of iPads. Charge overnight, leave home without charging cable, while confident that you have enough juice to last the day. If my laptop doesn't need to be tethered to a public power point where people are constantly walking about, then MagSafe would be redundant.

Plus, with USB-C serving triple duty by supplying power, data and display (especially with the requisite adaptor), maybe you don't want the cable to get loose the moment someone yanks on it lest it results in loss of data or the disruption of your presentation.

All those reasons are << than a broken Mac because it was pulled by accident (and it does happen)

 

[Abazigal]

All those reasons are << than a broken Mac because it was pulled by accident (and it does happen)

My point is that magsafe made perfect sense back when laptops were charged with a single dedicated cable. There was no harm to yanking out the power cable (accidentally or deliberately) save for a few seconds of lost charging.

With USB-C, a cable can now do much more, and do more than one function simultaneously. We might see a 5k monitor hub that connects to your Macbook via a single USB-C cable. If you are in the midst of transferring huge amounts of data from your Macbook to a connected hard drive, do you really want that entire process interrupted just because someone tugged against your cable by accident?

Such an easily detached cable might be more of a hindrance given what people may end up using USB-C for.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

If you use quality audio you already use a digital out source, meaning a headphone jack is not needed.

First of all, you statement is factually incorrect. For one thing, "quality audio" is not a function of having a "digital out source". ALL audio has to be converted to analog sooner or later regardless. The analog output is full range and OS X can handle 24/96 conversion, etc. How is that not "quality audio" when it has no audible impact what-so-ever unless your system is inducing hum into your electric lines or something. When it comes to using headphones, putting the DAC and headphone amplifier into the headphones themselves means your headphones need batteries to function or a powered output line (say Lightning jack) at which point your headphones need an adapter one way or another to function with older or newer devices (pain-in-the-butt as dongles can be lost quite easily). One could argue that an external DAC is superior, but I would argue that the best DACs of the 1990s sell for pennies now and that the differences aren't audible anymore between DACs. The headphone op/amp COULD affect the sound, but that is pretty much meaningless if the jack is being used as a line-level output for say a home stereo or theater setup.

Secondly, the headphone jack IS a digital out jack on a Macbook Pro! All Macbook Pros since around 2005 or 2006 or so (certainly my old 2008 one has it) have dual-purpose "headphone" jacks. That jack doubles as a Mini-TOSLINK optical audio jack as well as a combination analog level line jack and a headphone jack all-in-one. This means you can output Dolby Digital 5.1 right from your Macbook Pro through that jack if you want to. Yes, the HDMI jack is an all-in-one connection and can handle more bandwidth (for say uncompressed multi-channel sound), but this jack works in a pinch on older systems. Moreover, the 3.5mm jack takes up very little space and offers a lot of flexibility considering it's really a 3-in-1 jack. I don't see any benefit of removing it. A Macbook Pro isn't a tiny phone. There's plenty of room for it in any number of locations.

Apple is moving a feature that cannot be dispensed with - the DAC - outside the computer.

It's not just the DAC. A headphone must then also have its own amplifier (typically op-amp) as well since the signal is amplified AFTER it's converted to analog from digital. That needs more battery power than just a DAC. Thus, there is no free lunch. Your phone will need a battery and your headphones will need them too unless its using a powered Lightning connection (which means using a cord and won't allow you to charge and use the audio at the same time).

The question is whether this is a good idea or not.

Since it requires an external DAC and/or upscale headphones with an integrated DAC (or well, cheap headphones with a ****** DAC) without having added much except cutting on some costs... I'd say it's not a good idea, but I would love to be corrected if you could argue the opposite without resorting to vague words about "the future", "courage" and "progress".

It's a horrible idea UNLESS you just happen to own a headphone company in which case you would probably love to sell Bluetooth and/or Lightning powered headphones that work directly with your new iPhone while everyone else is forced to use some dongle that they will likely quickly lose and get so frustrated that they will go buy a new pair of headphones from Apple or a 3rd party that pays Apple a license to use said Lightning connector. Don't be shocked if Apple uses some propriety Bluetooth connection that maintains much better sound quality over low-bandwidth Bluetooth than any of the standard methods thus ensuring only Beats has decent sounding audio with the iPhone 7. But "high-end" audio will requires a CORD until such time as Bluetooth has enough bandwidth to do lossless audio in one form or another.

 

[dilbert99]

Okay? What relevance does that have at all to what I said?

Selling adapters makes them millions of dollars.

Do you not think MBP will have USB-C?

from a headphone point of view I don't think it makes sense for Apple to offer usb-c headphones on the mbp- how would they reconcile that you would now need two types of headphone - lightning and usb-c?
[doublepost=1474070241][/doublepost]

My point is that magsafe made perfect sense back when laptops were charged with a single dedicated cable. There was no harm to yanking out the power cable (accidentally or deliberately) save for a few seconds of lost charging.

With USB-C, a cable can now do much more, and do more than one function simultaneously. We might see a 5k monitor hub that connects to your Macbook via a single USB-C cable. If you are in the midst of transferring huge amounts of data from your Macbook to a connected hard drive, do you really want that entire process interrupted just because someone tugged against your cable by accident?

Such an easily detached cable might be more of a hindrance given what people may end up using USB-C for.

A perfect opportunity for Apple and their love of dongles to offer a usb-c to MagSafe adaptor.

 

[Michael Goff]

Selling adapters makes them millions of dollars.

from a headphone point of view I don't think it makes sense for Apple to offer usb-c headphones on the mbp- how would they reconcile that you would now need two types of headphone - lightning and usb-c?
[doublepost=1474070241][/doublepost]
A perfect opportunity for Apple and their love of dongles to offer a usb-c to MagSafe adaptor.

"Millions of dollars" amounts to an account error when you make as much money as Apple.

 

[Clix Pix]

I would grab a USB-C -to MagSafe Adaptor in a heartbeat! On my rMB that is the one thing I really miss, the MagSafe and the green or orange light indicating whether the machine is charging or already fully charged.

 

[Jim W]

I use my headphone jack daily. Some things require analog out. Like audio.
[doublepost=1474087040][/doublepost]

"Millions of dollars" amounts to an account error when you make as much money as Apple.

It doesn't amount to a rounding error in my budget. Tired of eliminations in choice for the sake of fashion. Forced purchases. I have 1-2012 Mac Pro tower (to keep up with nitwit-ish annual system updates, drop in a new drive), 2-2013 Pros for video and photo, (RIP Aperture, 100s of thousands of images in it, Photos is a joke, won't install a system that doesn't run Aperture. El Cap or Yos the end). Also Macbook Pro Retina 2015 with Thunderbolt 2 and headphone jack, USB3, HDMI, and SD slot. Heck I even have a 2011 MBP with DVD, PCie, Tbolt1/Display port, and USB2, FW800, etc. I'm fixed for the next 5 years. My Macs last that long or longer. Sticking with the tons of TBolt 2 storage, multiple TB2 RAIDs etc. that I have amassed. External TB2 SSDs. They more than fulfill my needs. I and my wife just got iPhone 6S's with 128GB. Not spending a dime on Apple after this, perhaps ever unless they quit turning their computers into iOS devices. Was an Apple Video VAR for length of the program. Only Avid dealer in Hawaii. (No longer an Avid fan, Resolve next, FCPX meanwhile 'til they decide to obsolete it). Mr. Ive, actually my neighbor on Kauai, 1/2 mile, is more concerned with removing holes and reducing options to zero in a so called move to simplicity when professionals require options. Dongle heaven. That is simplicity? Good luck with the cigarette butts in your ears.

 

[Mailia]

Of course I am, I rather buy new headphones to get these features than a new computer.

You know MacBooks have had USB for the longest time, right? You can install any DAC you want into it.

From small…

…to big.

Basically the only limiting factor you have (and have had for a long time) when it comes to converting digital audio signal from a MacBook is your budget. But if you don't want to pay more and carry around a separate DAC with you, you can just settle with the internal DAC; it's not that ****.

"For more challenging headphones, or critical listening, the [MacBook] Air may fall short but I don’t know of a laptop with better built-in audio at the moment."
- NwAvGuy in 2011