Apple Targeted by EU Probe into Irish Tax Policies as U.S. Considers Tax Holiday for Cash Repatriation

[tevion5]

It's the poeple that need to make themselves happy, not some bloody system.

You'd be happy living as a Jew in Germany in 1943 then? Yes, sometimes systems can be 100% to blame.

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I'm not American, I'm Spanish.

And yes, perhaps Ireland would be worse off, but the rest of the EU will be better.

So, and?

Since when has any country voluntarily given away what resources it has to be "nice"? That's not how economic works.

We have very little means of generating wealth in Ireland, much less than Spain does. It's an honest way to generate tax revenue for Ireland.

Sure, why doesn't Switzerland alter it's banking laws so that more people would bank elsewhere?

Because it has a selling point it doesn't want to lose and is a major source of income for the country as a whole.

What do mean "why"? It's good for Ireland. That is a logical reason to maintain current tax laws here.

 

[Happybunny]

I'm not American, I'm Spanish.

And yes, perhaps Ireland would be worse off, but the rest of the EU will be better.

So, and?

You'd be happy living as a Jew in Germany in 1943 then? Yes, sometimes systems can be 100% to blame.

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Since when has any country voluntarily given away what resources it has to be "nice"? That's not how economic works.

We have very little means of generating wealth in Ireland, much less than Spain does. It's an honest way to generate tax revenue for Ireland.

Sure, why doesn't Switzerland alter it's banking laws so that more people would bank elsewhere?

Because it has a selling point it doesn't want to lose and is a major source of income for the country as a whole.

What do mean "why"? It's good for Ireland. That is a logical reason to maintain current tax laws here.

That has already been done the secret bank account is a thing of the past.

All the major Swiss banks have been fined by EU and US authorities for helping tax evasion.

In this mess there is enough blame to go round for everybody to take their fair share.

The Netherlands Luxembourg and Ireland made it easy to avoid tax collection in other EU countries.

The ease with which credit was given in the southern EU countries now looks to be ridiculous, but was then seen to be a sign of growth.
100% mortgage with no money down was the norm, to be able to borrow 8 to 10 times one’s salary, it’s like a fairy tale, but back then the most normal thing in the world.
In the Netherlands the fact that you could claim all of your mortgage rent as a rebate from your taxes didn’t help either.

Ireland and the Irish had by 2007 become very arrogant the “Celtic Tiger”, so it was no wonder that when boom turned to bust, and the tiger was seen to be a kitten, other countries in the EU were going for pay back. Ireland and the Iceland rose out of the financial desert to become superstars, but it was all based on lies and false promises, which turned to dust. If you want to play with the big boys you have got to expect to get hurt.

The fact of the matter was as soon as there was one currency the EURO, tax rates should have been harmonised, but back then nobody wanted to rock the boat.

 

[gnasher729]

Nowhere in the definition of theft does it say that the thief must come to my place, in order to steal.

You may not like the definition of theft, because it invalidates your preferred politics, but it's still theft.

Ochlocracy, the very worst of bands.

On the other hand, without taxes, there would be no police to protect you, and someone with more weapons than you can come to your house, and take what they want, including the house, since you don't need it anyway with a bullet in your head.

 

[emaja]

All this "It may be legal but it's not moral" stuff makes me wonder if you think that each and every one of us should not take advantage of tax breaks and credits afforded to us because it would be immoral to do so.

There is a huge cultural difference between the US and many Europeans in that we in the US do not accept taxes as easily. It is just who we are going back to the Revolution. Taxes are definitely looked down upon as oppressive whether they actually are or not.

My basic thought is this - if you do not like the rules that allow a person or company to get away with paying less in taxes then you do as an individual then change the laws. Companies are going to take advantage of every opportunity to lessen their tax burden just as individuals do. That is neither moral or immoral. It is just the way to do good business.

This obviously doesn't apply if laws are broken. That should be punished. I am just addressing the people who post about the morality of tax breaks.

 

[luckydcxx]

The issue is they don't pay much tax in China or in Europe where the phone get's sold. All the profits are routed through Ireland.

The EU needs to change the law, companies like Apple should be paying the correct amount of corporate tax on profits so that's 20%-35% depending on which country the devices are sold.

True, but as stupid as this sounds "don't hate the player, hate the game". It's not applea fault, they are taking advantage of what is available. I don't see why they are getting called out on this I'm sure they are 1 of many companies doing this.

 

[iKrivetko]

You'd be happy living as a Jew in Germany in 1943 then? Yes, sometimes systems can be 100% to blame.

Perhaps I wouldn't be stupid enough to stay there as a jew?

 

[Jambalaya]

So I'm assuming then when you pay taxes you make sure to pay the maximum amount possible without taking ant deductions or credits? I'm all for closing tax loopholes or getting rid of deductions so long as tax rates are reduced in concert. And corporations just pass taxes on to consumers anyway so I'm not sure why we'd want them being taxed even more.

Corporate taxes in Ireland are just 12.5% and Apple doesn't pay those either despite routing much of it's business through there. Corporate tax rates of 35% in the US and 22% in the UK are in my opinion quite reasonable.

I am not saying what Apple is doing is illegal, it clearly is not, but those loopholes need to be closed. Apple has avoided (legally) by my estimation something like $50 billion in taxes.

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Perhaps I wouldn't be stupid enough to stay there as a jew?

Read your history. They where forbidden from travelling.

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True, but as stupid as this sounds "don't hate the player, hate the game". It's not applea fault, they are taking advantage of what is available. I don't see why they are getting called out on this I'm sure they are 1 of many companies doing this.

Agreed, the game needs to be changed. Apple are not the only one, the EU referenced Starbucks as well for example. However Apple are doing this in huge size, as I posted previously I estimate they have avoided $50 billion in taxes.

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We have very little means of generating wealth in Ireland, much less than Spain does. It's an honest way to generate tax revenue for Ireland.

Sure, why doesn't Switzerland alter it's banking laws so that more people would bank elsewhere?

Because it has a selling point it doesn't want to lose and is a major source of income for the country as a whole.

What do mean "why"? It's good for Ireland. That is a logical reason to maintain current tax laws here.

Ireland doesn't actually collect much tax from Apple, not even with the low 12.5% as your tax laws allow profits generated in companies controlled elsewhere to be tax free. Ireland should never have been given an EU bailout without revision of their corporate tax rate to be in line with the rest of the EU. The UK is a huge market for Apple and they pay virtually no tax in the UK whilst generating very substantial profits all of which are routed through Ireland.

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since apple is very left leaning, I think they should pay every effing dollar the owe, they support this mentality.

Pay apple pay, you love this stuff.

Apple may be left leaning (although I dispute very much that includes paying tax they don't have to) but their shareholders are not so much. Apple will not pay more tax unless forced to do so by changes to the law.

 

[iKrivetko]

Read your history. They where forbidden from travelling.

First of all, it didn't start in a day. NSDAP wasn't elected as soon as it was formed. In fact, it took over a decade for them to gain prominence. When you see an antisemitic party gaining support, the last thing you do as a jew is stay in the country.

Secondly, just because you're forbidden from travelling, doesn't mean that you can't do it illegally.

 

[Fishticks]

Legal and 'moral' are two entirely different things. This fact plus these governments are pissed off that they don't get their cut of these billions regardless of the fact that said governments won't spend any of it on the general populace anyway.

It always amazes me when someone says something so wrong, unjustified and stupid like this.

 

[Gasu E.]

I'm an Apple collector and user and also an Irish citizen. This issue of multinationals not paying much tax is a topical issue here.

See, we don't charge much tax in I order to attract many multinationals. As a result, almost every Silicon Valley company has it's HQ in Ireland today. We also are well educated as speak English.

However, the EU hate that we don't change them enough corporate tax. But, if we did charge them a normal amount, they would most likely leave. Then, we would get no tax and loose all the jobs and infrastructure these campanies bring with them.

I don't think we will see much change. It's not ideal, but it's about the best case scenario for Ireland right now.

Also, the manner in which Google and Apple "dodge" taxes in the US is 100% legal. It's the government that is to blame for any loss in tax. The multinationals can't be blamed for being as efficient as legally possible, within the most capatalist country on earth.

I understand your point, and it has some validity. However, the main problem in this case isn't that Ireland has "competitive" (low) tax rates; but that there are inconsistencies in international tax laws that allow companies to move money around between countries in arcane ways to take advantage of inconsistencies and anomalies. Attracting manufacturing and research facilities via low tax rates in order to stimulate employment is one thing; but a tax loophole that is a pure financial dodge doesn't create local jobs, although it may slightly increase Irish tax revenues at the expense of some other jurisdictions.

 

[Fishticks]

True, but as stupid as this sounds "don't hate the player, hate the game". It's not applea fault, they are taking advantage of what is available. I don't see why they are getting called out on this I'm sure they are 1 of many companies doing this.

Many people believe they "think" while they are just dominated by the mainstream ideas they keep repeating and propagating themselves.

These ideas stem from the lobbies and the ones that really have power and money, and they propagate them by all means (media, books, political parties...).
In the end people whose mind is intellectually-dominated like this end up just blobbing out phrases like "don't hate the player hate the game" or "I'm so glad, I'm a BETA"... and they believe they have thoughts of their own...

This powerful and wealthy people and companies are not only players, they act so that the rules of the game are changed to serve their interests, agains public interest.

So hate this players and fight them if you're not one of them: they hate YOU and fight YOU.

 

[OLDCODGER]

Who actually does that?

You don't get out much, do you.

 

[Eraserhead]

All this "It may be legal but it's not moral" stuff makes me wonder if you think that each and every one of us should not take advantage of tax breaks and credits afforded to us because it would be immoral to do so.

There's a difference between claiming deductions for mortgages and stuff and offshoring your wealth.

I mean seriously I 'avoid' tax by using an ISA for saving, but I don't have any money off shored in a bank account in Jersey.

My basic thought is this - if you do not like the rules that allow a person or company to get away with paying less in taxes then you do as an individual then change the laws.

I agree, I also think it is fine to declare people immoral for taking the piss.

First of all, it didn't start in a day. NSDAP wasn't elected as soon as it was formed. In fact, it took over a decade for them to gain prominence. When you see an antisemitic party gaining support, the last thing you do as a jew is stay in the country.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Secondly, just because you're forbidden from travelling, doesn't mean that you can't do it illegally.

How do you do that? The US and UK and other safe places wouldn't let the Jews in.

 

[OLDCODGER]

Either this is all hot air and angry words, because in the cold hard reality you pay your taxes, just like all the rest of us do.
Or you are a freedom fighter living on the edge, off the grid, a true maverick.



But there is a very good reason why in all of recorded history there has never been a true Libertarian state, it is because they don’t work.

If you are referring to local taxes, please my post No:104.

Laissez Faire worked nicely - until the thieves gained power.

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Neither do you. You take advantage of living in a community all the time.

Please see my post No:104.

 

[Eraserhead]

If you are referring to local taxes, please my post No:104.

…

Please see my post No:104.

How does the following address either of these points?

First, there is a difference between a common usage fund (eg: Rates), and funds taken to benefit someone outside of said fund.

Second, I disagree with the "unfair" part. A two-bit company cannot expect the same level of official patronage that a major player can expect. It simply isn't in the interests of the patrons.

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Laissez Faire worked nicely - until the thieves gained power.

When exactly was that? 1492?

 

[OLDCODGER]

Without the taxes you abhor, there would be no money for you to own nor the ability to generate any.



Existing in splendid isolation is wonderful until you understand that in such social constructs the devil takes the hindmost. You would most likely own nothing and be subject to the whims of the most powerful, which would be more painful for you than paying taxes to prop up the welfare state.

There is a reason humanity progressed beyond cavemen/hunter societies.

First, Laissez Faire allowed for the greatest wealth increases, while taxation stifles it.

Second, please see my post No:104,

Third, yes, the enterprise of the makers - then stolen by the greed of the have-nots/work-nots.

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It's now clear that you're trolling, so I'll leave it at that.

It amazes me that there are people who refuse to believe what their eyes tell them. Welfare bludgers are a fact of life - being born the moment the Welfare State was created.

 

[Eraserhead]

It amazes me that there are people who refuse to believe what their eyes tell them. Welfare bludgers are a fact of life - being born the moment the Welfare State was created.

And how many of them are there in the whole US? 10000?

And given how few of them there are who really cares? Does it actually matter?

 

[OLDCODGER]

On the other hand, without taxes, there would be no police to protect you, and someone with more weapons than you can come to your house, and take what they want, including the house, since you don't need it anyway with a bullet in your head.

Please see my post No:104.

 

[Eraserhead]

First, Laissez Faire allowed for the greatest wealth increases, while taxation stifles it.

When was the US "Laissez Faire"? During the Gilded Age?

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Please see my post No:104.

How exactly does post 104 address someone coming along and seizing your property in a lawless country? That's what happens in Cambodia for example...

 

[Oletros]

First, Laissez Faire allowed for the greatest wealth increases

Any example of this?

Well, any argument for your claim that society is just a leftish meme?

 

[Happybunny]

First, Laissez Faire allowed for the greatest wealth increases, while taxation stifles it.

Second, please see my post No:104,

Third, yes, the enterprise of the makers - then stolen by the greed of the have-nots/work-nots.

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It amazes me that there are people who refuse to believe what their eyes tell them. Welfare bludgers are a fact of life - being born the moment the Welfare State was created.

If you are indeed old you, also get a hand out in the form of Pension from the state, I think in your case the UK.

Who are these thieves that you keep talking about?

 

[OLDCODGER]

How does the following address either of these points?



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When exactly was that? 1492?

Local or community taxes/fees, designed to pay for local infrastructure is totally different than general taxation to prop up the Welfare State. (Naturally, I exclude military and other essential infrastructure costs - considering them to be the cost my living "user pays") It should be noted that, in most countries, personal income tax was imposed to pay for Socialism.

In England, until 1874.

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And how many of them are there in the whole US? 10000?

And given how few of them there are who really cares? Does it actually matter?

You're joking, right?

How many EBT cards alone are there in America?

Yes, it matters to me. You pay for them if it doesn't bother you.

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When was the US "Laissez Faire"? During the Gilded Age?

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How exactly does post 104 address someone coming along and seizing your property in a lawless country? That's what happens in Cambodia for example...

The US is a very young country, knowing little of actual Laissez Faire. England built an empire on it.

Local taxes/fees, plus essential state expenditure (Law, military, etc) would take care of security concerns - no need to steal money from me for the upkeep of the takers.

 

[Oletros]

It should be noted that, in most countries, personal income tax was imposed to pay for Socialism.

In England, until 1874.

It is clear that you're just joking

 

[OLDCODGER]

Any example of this?

Well, any argument for your claim that society is just a leftish meme?

British Empire.

The term "society" didn't mean the general population until after the mob took power. It was designed to be all inclusive - like it or not. Communism comes to mind.

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It is clear that you're just joking

England didn't pay personal income tax (PAYE) until 1909, for example.

 

[Oletros]

British Empire.

The term "society" didn't mean the general population until after the mob took power. It was designed to be all inclusive - like it or not. Communism comes to mind.

As I said, you're just joking, no one with just a little knowledge can write such nonsensical and wrong things.