Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

[threesixty360]

I wonder when all these “pro epic Warriors” wake up and realise that any judgement against Apple making them open up to third party app stores or change their cut etc is going to effect the whole tech industry.

so goodbye Nintendo, Xbox and PlayStation.
who cannot survive with the same arrangement that epic is seeking of Apple.

 

[acorntoy]

You should go ahead and inform the antitrust chairman - guess he doesn‘t have the insight you do ...

Like I mentioned it’s up to a lot more people than me (and even him despite that nice label). This is a massive issue that has obviously caused many different opinions. I’m interested to see what the final outcome will be. It will cause ripples for many decades to come and this is definitely a defining moment in tech history.

Please do know I value your opinion as highly as you value mine.

 

[Wildkraut]

you really have no idea what you are talking about. The judge working on the case said Fortnite had to remove the update to get back on the store, otherwise Apple would be in the right removing it. Nobody will ever pay damages to follow a judge ruling. And nobody will ever being awarded damages to have broken a legal agreement they have signed willingly like Epic did. This a publicity stunt addressed at weak minded fanboys that don’t get how the adult world work.

All just pre-trial, not the final decision, and will go a few courts higher, too.

 

[Altivec88]

I‘ll try to get my money back for Infinity Blade and Infinity Blade II - from 2012 🤣 This will end up in another legal fight - since those apps are still available but Apple removed em.

But I‘ll wait - guess Apple will fix this very soon and old titles will be available to download again. Still have an old iPad in case Apple tells me those games won’t run on iOS13.

That is interesting. There probably is a clause that us users must agree to when first signing up to use the Apple store. I'm to lazy to check what their obligation is when removing already purchased apps from the store. I'm pretty sure they would have one time purchase apps such as infinity blade covered but in game currency is another animal. Anybody that has a credit balance or recently purchased v-bucks is truly affected by this and most definitely should be entitled to get their money back.

 

[ani4ani]

But you aren’t forced to buy an iPhone, therefore you aren’t forced to one store.

When you buy an iPhone you know what your getting into.

I disagree. Some might know what they get with an iPhone, but i would argue a large proportion have no clue (unless they’re looking for something magical). Likewise, many choose Android not because the platform is open but because they like a particular phone. They‘ll be folks this morning buying an iPhone with no clue it cannot play Fortnite and likely will never be able to use xcloud and the like.

I knew someone who bought an Apple Watch not realising it was useless without an iPhone (he cannot be the only one)

 

[acorntoy]

I disagree. Some might know what they get with an iPhone, but i would argue a large proportion have no clue (unless they’re looking for something magical). Likewise, many choose Android not because the platform is open but because they like a particular phone. They‘ll be folks this morning buying am iPhone with no clue it cannot play Fortnite and likely will never be able to use xcloud and the like.

I knew someone who bought an Apple Watch not realising it was useless without an iPhone (he cannot be the only one)

This is what a return policy is for is it not? Again it is not the only choice. You have other options. That really destroys epics argument.

 

[jkwr]

I wouldn't mind the Apple Tax.........as long as Apple paid taxes like the rest of us in Europe. Apple needs knocking down a peg or 2. They've become bullies and can get away with anything. Kudos to Epic for making a Cheaper Games Store on PC and charging developers 50% less than Apple/steam etc does. You don't even have to buy any games on Epics store and you still get really good games for free without Ads etc. GTA 5, Batman Trilogy, Hitman, Borderlands pre sequel, just cause 4 etc. Epic works with developers. They've fought for cross play and won. They are more for the gamers than any other big company. Epic has to maintain a store with massive download sizes for less and an amazing graphics engine.
Epic gets my vote.

 

[acorntoy]

I wouldn't mind the Apple Tax.........as long as Apple paid taxes like the rest of us in Europe. Apple needs knocking down a peg or 2. They've become bullies and can get away with anything. Kudos to Epic for making a Cheaper Games Store on PC and charging developers 50% less than Apple/steam etc does. You don't even have to buy any games on Epics store and you still get really good games for free without Ads etc. GTA 5, Batman Trilogy, Hitman, Borderlands pre sequel, just cause 4 etc. Epic works with developers. They've fought for cross play and won. They are more for the gamers than any other big company. Epic has to maintain a store with massive download sizes for less and an amazing graphics engine.
Epic gets my vote.

It’s the lawmakers that have created the loopholes for Apple to go through to avoid taxes legally. You’re angry at the wrong people, and it’s beneficial to those that actually created the problem. Also with respect to the unreal engine Apple really helped its development and the developers pockets by highlighting it in multiple keynotes (until after iPad 3 when they failed to produce what they previewed, as well as it lagging on demo). They were fine taking Apples deal a few years ago, and that was when 3 operating systems had a chance. If anything Epic helped make Apple.

 

[Altivec88]

I disagree. Some might know what they get with an iPhone, but i would argue a large proportion have no clue (unless they’re looking for something magical). Likewise, many choose Android not because the platform is open but because they like a particular phone. They‘ll be folks this morning buying am iPhone with no clue it cannot play Fortnite and likely will never be able to use xcloud and the like.

I knew someone who bought an Apple Watch not realising it was useless without an iPhone (he cannot be the only one)

I too bought things where I made assumptions of how it would function so I agree with you that a lot of people will buy an iPhone without knowing a lot of stuff and some will end up disappointed. But who's fault is that? The onus is on the user to educate themselves about the product before buying it. If I want to play smashbrothers, I don't blame Sony because I didn't know it was only available on Nintendo.

 

[Piggie]

It’s the lawmakers that have created the loopholes for Apple to go through to avoid taxes legally. You’re angry at the wrong people, and it’s beneficial to those that actually created the problem.

I know what you mean here and I agree.
However just because you can legally do something does that mean you should? especially if you wish to do business in public?

Let me ask you this?

Say I have a chat to the 50 people I work with, and say, hey, we can do the lottery. You all give me $1 a week, and I'll put $50 on lottery tickets, and we'll share any winnings, as you will have 50 chances to win a share of whatever we get.

(and many people do this)

So I do this, and everyone is happy, we have a few $10 wins, and a few $100 wins and I share the winning.

Then we win the jackpot and get $100 million.
I could give my 50 friend $2 million each, but hey, now we're talking REAL money and my and my family would be set up for life, so I decide I'll keep the money all to myself.

That's legal as there is no contract, and it was all just set up as personal trust.

Are you OK with me doing this, as hey, I've not broken any laws, and in fact you'd stand up for my right to do this?

 

[acorntoy]

I know what you mean here and I agree.
However just because you can legally do something does that mean you should? especially if you wish to do business in public?

Let me ask you this?

Say I have a chat to the 50 people I work with, and say, hey, we can do the lottery. You all give me $1 a week, and I'll put $50 on lottery tickets, and we'll share any winnings, as you will have 50 chances to win a share of whatever we get.

(and many people do this)

So I do this, and everyone is happy, we have a few $10 wins, and a few $100 wins and I share the winning.

Then we win the jackpot and get $100 million.
I could give my 50 friend $2 million each, but hey, now we're talking REAL money and my and my family would be set up for life, so I decide I'll keep the money all to myself.

That's legal as there is no contract, and it was all just set up as personal trust.

Are you OK with me doing this, as hey, I've not broken any laws, and in fact you'd stand up for my right to do this?

Although not morally right it is legally right. This is why such transactions are highly discouraged. You could probably claw back a reasonable amount in civil court and I would hope the person would suffer mental torment for the rest of their life, but other than that there’s not much you can do.

Of course legality and morality can conflict. It doesn’t mean the law doesn’t win. We as a society have chosen to uphold certain rules. Changing them means changing the politicians that create them. Perhaps the politicians we’ve chosen in the past haven’t had much morality despite what past generations believe.

 

[PickUrPoison]

not false. You can side load, or install different app stores such as the amazon one.

You said “If there was another way to install onto iOS devices this would be a non-issue.”

That’s not true at all.

There is another way to install onto Android, but Epic still has an issue with Google. Epic sued Google to get back on the Play store, just like they sued Apple to get back on the App Store.

The existence of a third-party app stores for the ecosystem apparently makes no difference.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

So would every nation-state and criminal enterprise with an interest in weakening iOS’s security model.

BTW, you can side load now. Pay apple $99 per year, convince your favorite software vendor to give you the source code, and compile it yourself.
[automerge]1598666180[/automerge]

No it’s not nearly that bad.

Plus it’s true.

Exactly, you can do that right now. EPIC could just make their app available and users who want to can install it.

Correct.
They could also sell a subscription for $3.99 / month for all the coffee you can drink ( if they wished ) and / or IAPs ( for hats or different color backgrounds ). It is completely up to them as they own the PWA.

Exactly, and that was actually the original vision for the iPhone. Another avenue they could follow right now, today.

I know what you mean here and I agree.
However just because you can legally do something does that mean you should? especially if you wish to do business in public?

Let me ask you this?

Say I have a chat to the 50 people I work with, and say, hey, we can do the lottery. You all give me $1 a week, and I'll put $50 on lottery tickets, and we'll share any winnings, as you will have 50 chances to win a share of whatever we get.

(and many people do this)

So I do this, and everyone is happy, we have a few $10 wins, and a few $100 wins and I share the winning.

Then we win the jackpot and get $100 million.
I could give my 50 friend $2 million each, but hey, now we're talking REAL money and my and my family would be set up for life, so I decide I'll keep the money all to myself.

That's legal as there is no contract, and it was all just set up as personal trust.

Are you OK with me doing this, as hey, I've not broken any laws, and in fact you'd stand up for my right to do this?

Yes, you would break laws as you have a contract in place. Your example doesn't work at all.

And no, you can't just pay more tax. Heck, I tried, not intentionally though, and HMRC just sends you a nice check in the post with a calculation that you have overpaid.

 

[tann]

Stores always take a cut. You sell Fortnite at Walmart, they take a cut. You sell in-app purchases in the App Store, then Apple is totally reasonable to want a cut. If you think you can thrive without the marketplace/middle-man, then by all means sell direct to consumers...but don’t try to have your cake and eat it too, using someone else’s marketplace but bypassing them in sales.

Cars also didn't used to have rear seatbelts.

Just because something is or has been the way it is for a long time doesn't mean it needs to be changed or reviewed.

Something being "normal" doesn't make it right.
[automerge]1598686699[/automerge]

Stores always take a cut. You sell Fortnite at Walmart, they take a cut. You sell in-app purchases in the App Store, then Apple is totally reasonable to want a cut. If you think you can thrive without the marketplace/middle-man, then by all means sell direct to consumers...but don’t try to have your cake and eat it too, using someone else’s marketplace but bypassing them in sales.

Cars also didn't used to have rear seatbelts.

Just because something is or has been the way it is for a long time doesn't mean it needs to be changed or reviewed.

Something being "normal" doesn't make it right.

 

[-BigMac-]

Tim Sweeney should probably think about resigning from the role of CEO after leading his company in such a blind alley.

It was a careless move executed in the name of greediness. Leading to massive loss of capital, respect and trust in his vision.

What on earth are you talking about kemosabe?

 

[kenny2]

Apple doesn't need Epic, and Epic doesn't need Apple (though to what degree for each is debatable). At the end of the day, the consumer has just lost choices for where to play the game. The revenue will just go to other platforms.

and other platforms will take their cut as always in any store

 

[UBS28]

CNBC provides some nice insight too
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/28/apple-suspends-fortnite-maker-epic-games-app-store-account.html

“Apple said that Fortnite’s users have been directed by Epic Games to contact AppleCare, and that those requests have caused refund quality issues and support problems for Apple users around the world.“

So Fornite Users want their money back - from Apple? Interesting how this will turn out.

“We estimate that, since January 2012, Epic Games’ mobile titles have been downloaded more than 159 million times across Apple’s App Store globally, generating approximately $1.2 billion in consumer spending,”

I guess that is why Tim cashed out half of his shares recently

 

[ian87w]

I wonder when all these “pro epic Warriors” wake up and realise that any judgement against Apple making them open up to third party app stores or change their cut etc is going to effect the whole tech industry.

so goodbye Nintendo, Xbox and PlayStation.
who cannot survive with the same arrangement that epic is seeking of Apple.

It shows tha real intention behind this. In a sense, Epic has zero care about the platforms themselves. They simply want a way to have user data for themselves. Apple is an easy target due to their large size and Epic can pretend to be the underdog. It feeds well to the politicians as well.

 

[fabienpascal]

Stores always take a cut. You sell Fortnite at Walmart, they take a cut. You sell in-app purchases in the App Store, then Apple is totally reasonable to want a cut. If you think you can thrive without the marketplace/middle-man, then by all means sell direct to consumers...but don’t try to have your cake and eat it too, using someone else’s marketplace but bypassing them in sales.

It's not about whether you want to cut the middle man.
Even going direct, a business still needs a payment vendor to process transaction, and a host to securely store users data. Apple provides all that for a fee. Fair enough.
The question here is about choice. Because Apple owns 50% market share in the US, they are in a abuse of dominance position. Basically as a developer, it is either I agree with them or I loose 50% (or more) of my revenue.
That in essence is against the rules of a free market.

 

[simply258]

Legally, Apple is free to charge as they want in their store and can put their own terms including payment processing. If developers don’t like Apple’s terms they’re free not to sell on the App Store. However, from a consumer point of view, the user has no option except Apple’s App Store and that’s the sticking point for an anti-competitive case.

 

[Piggie]

I could almost say the 30% would be passable but not the in-app purchases.

As someone said, imagine paying Walmart for a TV and the TV maker pays wallmart 30% just to sell the TV in the store.

But then, whenever someone wanted to pay for a movie on that TV wallmart wanted 30% of those purchases forever also!

Things need to just be scaled back and opened up by some amount.
It's going to happen it's just a case of by how much and when.

 

[acorntoy]

I guess that is why Tim cashed out half of his shares recently

Maybe half of the shares that recently matured.
If he sold half of his total shares he’d have a -lot- of cash on hand (I can’t imagine how many banks you’d spread it across to be secure) And would likely cause a stock collapse. As a person who is paid mostly in shares you can’t hold it against them for using it once in awhile.

 

[skitidetdu]

Just for epic to invest and open their own store then…

 

[Ramchi]

Legally, Apple is free to charge as they want in their store and can put their own terms including payment processing. If developers don’t like Apple’s terms they’re free not to sell on the App Store. However, from a consumer point of view, the user has no option except Apple’s App Store and that’s the sticking point for an anti-competitive case.

Government is making enormous amount of money, effort, time and international lobbying to ensure that regulations, legal and other environmental aspects are enforced in favour of Apple & other complying organisations (Huawei ban and Broadcom acquisition ban, TikTok payout ban, curbing anti monopoly practices for multiple players in the market) without getting its dues( just like Apple Tax, Government also needs 30% on Apple income). Today, Mobile Phone industry in USA is a very highly regulated industry where no Tom dick and Harry come and open up their shops and sell whatever mobiles with random OS. This protection created the market for both iOS and Android.

Apple cannot afford to say they can charge whatever and government is not left to fend big corporations by risking its reputation and credibility in banning organisations with dubious reasons.

Apple is not above the government even if they are trillions of dollars worth.

 

[acorntoy]

A companies goal (especially a public one) is to make profit. When you deal with them it’s basically a Faustian bargain. Developers aren’t innocent in this. You sign up knowing the rules. They don’t randomly change. Apple has provided an experience to users, its epic that’s throwing a tantrum and wants in it without paying a fee.

And again many people disregard how Apple helped epic and the unreal engine by promoting it publicly for so many years. Epic was perfectly happy paying Apples fees when they were a small company peddling infinity blade IAP. Again a company’s goal is to make profit, Epic got big enough that it’s trying to make even more.