Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

[DeepIn2U]

PUBG advertises on Apples twitter account - now THAT is just Unreal Engine or is it Epic you choose like.

Rene Ritchies latest video does a great job highlighting this momentarily

 

[MacCheetah3]

What bothers me is that older purchases in my apple account like the infinity blade series are not available to be downloaded anymore.
This is not right. How can they retroactivelly remove my purchases without refunding me or communicating with me?
This makes me really feel weird toward digital purchases . I feel they are more like digital leasing masquerading as purchases.
I understand to block whatever purchases from now on but blocking me from my digital property that i PAYED real money for ? This was purchased years ago when there were not any issues with epic. Why i am being hauled in their conflicts ?
If this passes, that means that any digital purchase you might have now could be removed in the future on any ecosystem if there is legal issues arising ? This is not right

I see your frustration and somewhat sympathize but it's certainly not a new situation. Granted, this is the Apple removing access but plenty of publishers have vanished. Just for an example, if Intuit folded, even if it were by choice, do you think they'd refund a TurboTax purchase from a year ago? Probably not. It can be annoying/saddening, though facts of how the system works. Most times we try to hang on as long as we can, offline backups, painstakingly trying to transfer it from (replaced) device to device. Eventually, it gets lost and we face the inevitable need to move on.

 

[Maximara]

However, one can argue that other stores should be allowed. Question is, will anyone use them? Apple's store is awesome.

There are other stores for Mac software with Steam (which as far as games concerned better than Apple's store at being able to find stuff) being the biggest of the bunch so this comment make no sense.

 

[thadoggfather]

People will blindly criticize Apple as well even if they may have their products. People don't understand the hardware is yours but the software is licensed.

Maybe show a premise, argument and conclusion instead of some hyperbole, masquerading as some fact.

A fair shake off of Apple's back for something they agreed to in the beginning. Greedy Epic made their money from the app store on Apple's back and decided they want to try to cut out Apple. Good luck to them.

You mean what Epic did? Good let them form a coalition and then have anti-trust rules applied to the entire lot of them.

A company does NOT need to voluntarily sign-up to be a dev if they don't like the T&C. Epic shot themselves in the proverbial foot by pulling this stunt.

I don't game on the iphone but Epic hopefully will not prevail. It sets a bad precedent.

Line by line quoting is an extremely obnoxious tactic in my opinion. You aren't really looking to have a discussion, you're looking to cram your opinions down my throat and I don't appreciate it.

I fully understand the premise that the software is licensed even owning the hardware. Not sure what that has to do with anything, or that I even argued otherwise.

I think Apple banning their developer account for merely contesting their cut is absurd. Epic can decide to walk away of their own will, or complain while opting in begrudgingly, but to not be given a choice anymore is, once again, in my own opinion, absurdly authoritarian. I don't care if Google is on the same page or not either. These companies operate in tandem with lots of these big decisions, and its concerning as well.

I think the fact that Amazon got their 15% shows cronyism and unequal treatment at its very core.

 

[4jasontv]

What bothers me is that older purchases in my apple account like the infinity blade series are not available to be downloaded anymore.
This is not right. How can they retroactivelly remove my purchases without refunding me or communicating with me?
This makes me really feel weird toward digital purchases . I feel they are more like digital leasing masquerading as purchases.
I understand to block whatever purchases from now on but blocking me from my digital property that i PAYED real money for ? This was purchased years ago when there were not any issues with epic. Why i am being hauled in their conflicts ?
If this passes, that means that any digital purchase you might have now could be removed in the future on any ecosystem if there is legal issues arising ? This is not right

I see your frustration and somewhat sympathize but it's certainly not a new situation. Granted, this is the Apple removing access but plenty of publishers have vanished. Just for an example, if Intuit folded, even if it were by choice, do you think they'd refund a TurboTax purchase from a year ago? Probably not. It can be annoying/saddening, though facts of how the system works. Most times we try to hang on as long as we can, offline backups, painstakingly trying to transfer it from (replaced) device to device. Eventually, it gets lost and we face the inevitable need to move on.

Epic removed the Infinity Blade Trilogy themselves in 2018. If you want to be angry that you can’t download content then Epic are the ones to blame. Not Apple.

They are also the ones who violated App Store rules. I suggest you take Epic to court. I’m sure you could get a lot of people to back you.

 

[Maximara]

What bothers me is that older purchases in my apple account like the infinity blade series are not available to be downloaded anymore.
This is not right. How can they retroactivelly remove my purchases without refunding me or communicating with me?
This makes me really feel weird toward digital purchases . I feel they are more like digital leasing masquerading as purchases.
I understand to block whatever purchases from now on but blocking me from my digital property that i PAYED real money for ? This was purchased years ago when there were not any issues with epic. Why i am being hauled in their conflicts ?
If this passes, that means that any digital purchase you might have now could be removed in the future on any ecosystem if there is legal issues arising ? This is not right

I see your frustration and somewhat sympathize but it's certainly not a new situation. Granted, this is the Apple removing access but plenty of publishers have vanished. Just for an example, if Intuit folded, even if it were by choice, do you think they'd refund a TurboTax purchase from a year ago? Probably not. It can be annoying/saddening, though facts of how the system works. Most times we try to hang on as long as we can, offline backups, painstakingly trying to transfer it from (replaced) device to device. Eventually, it gets lost and we face the inevitable need to move on.

Nevermind this isn't unique to Apple. OSes change, features are added/removed and code changes. The copyright on software may be for around 95/120 years but you know that odds are without some sort of emulation there is no way it will run on whatever OSes are around in that time.

In my case Mojave is as far as I can go as I have a handful of 32-bit stuff that will die (and I saw a few games that are now gone go belly up under El Capitan) if I go to Catalina (and for this Mac the that the end of the road) It may be a royal pain to update such software to where it can run (SheepShaver for those who want to still play in Classic land case in point) or impossible due to mammoth spaghetti coding.

The new software as service is even more detrimental as if the servers ever go dark (company stops supporting the program/ceases to exist) then you are SOL. The reality is software is transitory. I know that eventually my large World Builder game library will be unplayable but given it was from 1986 (34 years ago) it is to be expected. In a way that such software for a totally different type of hardware can even run at all on slightly less then current hardware is nothing short of remarkable and even then it require a emulation of long gone hardware to even work.

As the song in Rudolph's Shinny New Year goes "The moving finger writes and having writ moves on. Treasure memories for what is gone is gone."

 

[idiiamots]

I think Apple banning their developer account for merely contesting their cut is absurd. Epic can decide to walk away of their own will, or complain while opting in begrudgingly, but to not be given a choice anymore is, once again, in my own opinion, absurdly authoritarian.

Apple didn't terminate Epic's developer account for contesting the store cut. Apple banned Epic for violating store policies and not addressing the issue with 14 days. Epic could have decided to walk away from iOS platform on their own and launch a lawsuit over fees. However, Epic didn't do that - they deliberately took steps which could result, and did result, in termination of their developer account.

 

[I7guy]

Line by line quoting is an extremely obnoxious tactic in my opinion. You aren't really looking to have a discussion, you're looking to cram your opinions down my throat and I don't appreciate it.

I fully understand the premise that the software is licensed even owning the hardware. Not sure what that has to do with anything, or that I even argued otherwise.

I think Apple banning their developer account for merely contesting their cut is absurd. Epic can decide to walk away of their own will, or complain while opting in begrudgingly, but to not be given a choice anymore is, once again, in my own opinion, absurdly authoritarian. I don't care if Google is on the same page or not either. These companies operate in tandem with lots of these big decisions, and its concerning as well.

I think the fact that Amazon got their 15% shows cronyism and unequal treatment at its very core.

The way the post style was worded and the opinions therein, were obnoxious and deserved to be responded to in a detailed manner. Starting with:

"Shows Tim is one big gigantic power tripping, bean counting FRAUD when push comes to shove."

Which I simply don't agree with as it relates to this incident.

 

[cmaier]

I think Apple banning their developer account for merely contesting their cut is absurd.

If that had happened, it would have been absurd.

That’s not at all what happened.

Epic violated multiple App Store rules and multiple clauses of the apple developer agreement, including sneaking new functionality into the app without submitting that functionality to app review. That, alone, would be sufficient to allow apple to immediately terminate epic’s developer rights, per the agreement. Apple gave Epic 14 days to fix the problem. They refused.

 

[JimmyHook]

Honestly, when this is over, Apple should never allow Epic Fails back on the App Store again

 

[idiiamots]

That service is still not worth the 15+ billion dollars per year Apple is 'taxing' off developers. There's a middle ground between 3% (a regular payment processor cut) and 30%...
All these billions are customer's money.

Apple can charge whatever they want for their service. Apple built the OS, the hardware, developer tools and Apple ecosystem. 30% is Apple's current price of entry if one wants to monetize 1.4B iOS customers. If 30% cut doesn't make it profitable for a developer to sell on iOS, they can choose not to sell on iOS. If the app (e.g. Fortnite) is so important to society that its absence will impact iOS device sales, then normal market forces will compel Apple to reconsider their charge.

You're also wildly mistaken if you think reduction in store fees will lead to lower consumer prices. We've seen this with the airlines already, where lower fuel prices didn't get passed on. Make no mistake - if Apple caved, Epic would pocket the fee because their current customers are already willing to pay that price.

 

[thadoggfather]

The way the post style was worded and the opinions therein, were obnoxious and deserved to be responded to in a detailed manner. Starting with:

"Shows Tim is one big gigantic power tripping, bean counting FRAUD when push comes to shove."

Which I simply don't agree with as it relates to this incident.

But then you proceeded to infer that I was suggesting Apple doesn't own the license to their own software.

Which I simply dont agree with as it relates to this incident.

Couldn't Apple have reverted them to a previous build that didn't have payments in it?

Are there no other apps out there that don't have their own payment system?

 

[deevey]

Line by line quoting is an extremely obnoxious tactic in my opinion. You aren't really looking to have a discussion, you're looking to cram your opinions down my throat and I don't appreciate it.

I fully understand the premise that the software is licensed even owning the hardware. Not sure what that has to do with anything, or that I even argued otherwise.

I think Apple banning their developer account for merely contesting their cut is absurd. Epic can decide to walk away of their own will, or complain while opting in begrudgingly, but to not be given a choice anymore is, once again, in my own opinion, absurdly authoritarian. I don't care if Google is on the same page or not either. These companies operate in tandem with lots of these big decisions, and its concerning as well.

I think the fact that Amazon got their 15% shows cronyism and unequal treatment at its very core.

If you read the original emails it seems pretty clear Epic does not want a reduced "cut" they want to host their very own App Store.

It would seem that they don't want a piece the pie, they want dominate the entire Gaming segment on another companies devices and bypass the cut entirely.

Sorry, but you can't set up your own lemonade stand in a mall for free, right beside the other existing lemonade stand.

If they want to cater to THEIR customers and provide that kind of infrastructure, they could just develop their own phone and marketplace for their target market... Android is open source after all.

But then they would be competing, thus proving a non-monoply

 

[thadoggfather]

If you read the original emails it seems pretty clear Epic does not want a reduced "cut" they want to host their very own App Store.

It would seem that they don't want a piece the pie, they want dominate the entire Gaming segment on another companies devices and bypass the cut entirely.

Sorry, but you can't set up your own lemonade stand in a mall for free, right beside the other existing lemonade stand.

Point taken. I have overlooked some details surrounding this.

I still dont find it acceptable Amazon got 15% and every one else, even indie devs got 30%

Interesting thought, but why not? Apple flexed its muscle already and Epic's apps do bring in certain amount of revenue. If this mess resolves in Apple's favor, there's no harm re-instating Epic's account as long as they abide by terms of developer agreement like everyone else. If this mess resolves in Epic's favor, we'll have to see what conditions the courts apply to Apple.

this is still what I dont understand or agree with or like. They couldn't just ban the app, they had to ban their entire developer account instead? Infinity Blade has a history with showing off the graphical prowess of Apple's SoC.

Does Apple ban developer accounts of devs that slip in tethering tools, for example? Or do they just get rid of the app?

This is the part that grinds my gears.

 

[idiiamots]

Honestly, when this is over, Apple should never allow Epic Fails back on the App Store again

Interesting thought, but why not? Apple flexed its muscle already and Epic's apps do bring in certain amount of revenue. If this mess resolves in Apple's favor, there's no harm re-instating Epic's account as long as they abide by terms of developer agreement like everyone else. If this mess resolves in Epic's favor, we'll have to see what conditions the courts apply to Apple.

In fact, allowing Epic back would be a sign that rules apply to all developers equally and once you comply with the rules you're welcome to participate in the ecosystem. No retaliation needed.

 

[I7guy]

But then you proceeded to infer that I was suggesting Apple doesn't own the license to their own software.

Which I simply dont agree with as it relates to this incident.

Couldn't Apple have reverted them to a previous build that didn't have payments in it?

Are there no other apps out there that don't have their own payment system?

My opinion is that if apple reverted their app, it would be a lawsuit waiting to happen from Epic.

There are other apps, that have their own payment systems, but most of them don't deliver digital goods only.

I think it was posted, the Prime app might be an exception and while I have the prime app, I never bought any content through the ios app or tried or noticed an option was even there. The reasons for the exception, if it exists, to me are not known.

 

[nylonsteel]

gaming has so much room to grow
there are are many alternatives for both sides to move on

 

[AndiG]

Epic removed the Infinity Blade Trilogy themselves in 2018. If you want to be angry that you can’t download content then Epic are the ones to blame. Not Apple.

We removed an App last year but all the users who own it, can still download it (the latest version we uploaded). Simply no possibility for us to stop this* - so how exactly did Epic remove Infinity Blade so users are unable to download the latest version?

*)not to say that we did not want to, simple because the users who payed us own it (or a license to use it).

 

[cmaier]

Interesting thought, but why not?

How can you enter into a contract again with someone who you know will violate the contract whenever they feel like it?
[automerge]1598723588[/automerge]

We removed an App last year but all the users who own it, can still download it (the latest version we uploaded). Simply no possibility for us to stop this* - so how exactly did Epic remove Infinity Blade so users are unable to download the latest version?

*)not to say that we did not want to, simple because the users who payed us own it (or a license to use it).

I assume apple did it?

 

[deevey]

I still dont find it acceptable Amazon got 15% and every one else, even indie devs got 30%

Amazon had a massive chip to play at that time, something that no other company has/had to offer. It was refusing to sell Apple Streaming hardware which would have massively impacted their sales. Amazon were in a unique position.

Apple they were backed into a pretty dark corner and it was/is likely to be a on-of-a-kind. I honestly can't think of another company that has that much clout across retail / software / own-branded hardware as Amazon.

Not saying its right, but ultimately a survival move and decision not taken lightly.

Devs do get the same 15% for in-app subscriptions after a year though.

 

[JimmyHook]

Curious how people say it’s a monopoly. Those people clearly haven’t bothered to look at the definition of the word. Apple does not enjoy a dominant position nor is there a lack of choice. There’s a ton of choice. If I want a device that allows me to side load apps knowing my end security will suffer, I can buy those devices right now. If I want a device that is locked down with only one distribution model, I can buy those devices right now.

If I developed an app and wanted to distribute it, I get to choose which platforms to distribute them on. Every platform I choose has their own TOS. But ultimately it’s still my choice.

People are pretending there are no choices. There are plenty. It’s just that some want to impose additional choices using the force of law, basically using government to dictate to a private company. The law clearly only lets government do that when two things are true 1) that company has a dominant position and 2) they abuse that position to prevent market choice. As I’ve demonstrated above, market choice exists and is flourishing. There is no hindrance of those choices by any dominant or non-dominant player.

 

[Realityck]

gaming has so much room to grow
there are are many alternatives for both sides to move on

Particularly from Apple users perspective. I don't see anyone that is a Mac user, being perfectly content with Apple's current ignorance of gaming world in general. Its a weak spot of this 2 trillion dollar industry Titan.

You would think there be finally parity with PC games out there after so many years with a Intel CPU, but when has anyone seen Apple really prop up and show off advanced games (not those Apple Arcade specials) running on their computer line up to sell computers?

I still exclude any judgement concerning Apple Silicon, you really need to convince me that this time it will fly, compared to PowerPC which I thought was a tar pit.

Now we have another potential tar pit with this Apple vs EPIC. Just solve it, help the gaming community and its fans.

 

[poi ran]

Yeah Im sure apple are real worried about the EU after the last time they crushed the EU commission https://www.ft.com/content/1c38fdc1-c4b3-4835-919d-df51698f18c4

The EU shouldn't be taken lightly, they could very well decide that 30% of apps on Apple/Google app store should be developed in the EU, or be available in French, German, Italian and Spanish, or whatever irrational you can think of.

More about politics than law.

Apple can't count on winning anything against the EU.

 

[dwaite]

I think it was posted, the Prime app might be an exception and while I have the prime app, I never bought any content through the ios app or tried or noticed an option was even there. The reasons for the exception, if it exists, to me are not known.

The prime video app is covered under a separate appletv partnership/integration program. There are other members but afaik the details on the program are not public and it is invitation only. It only covers video streaming subscription services, hence why kindle and audible still do not have IAP.

 

[Lounge vibes 05]

Every morning, my Android phone alarm goes off to Pandora radio, and when I shut it off, it turns the lights on in my room, tells me today's forecast, my appointments, and then reads me the news...I wake up daily to a better experience than Apple offers....
(with Apple Music, you can wake up to any song you want. With shortcuts and automation, you can set your lights, temperature, locks, thermostat, etc. to automate during certain times for certain actions. so everything you listed here is possible on an iPhone, iPad, or HomePod.)

I have custom DND rules for more than just one and done, I can set it to be quiet during multiple specific times, when I'm in certain buildings by GPS, yep another feature Apple lacks.
(Again, you could build this with shortcuts. There’s probably some already out there.)

I can buy an SD card for more storage...yep, enjoy that out of this world soldered space in Apple.
(200 GB of iCloud storage for three bucks a month seems to do the trick, plus SD card storage is way slower than built-in storage. Plus, in my personal experience, android is super finicky with what it lets you put on an SD card, and what’s required to stay on internal storage. Overall just a completely incoherent, irritating experience.)

How about that USB-C that's pretty universal, unlike a proprietary cable.
(My Qi wireless charger uses USBC, and it works with the majority of phones. with the exception of some pixels, and some 1+ phones for some odd reason.)

My wallpaper changes daily to something new and beautiful, like an Apple TV.. iphone doesn't have that.
(Again, this is probably available with shortcuts, and even if it’s not, it’s not a very useful feature.)

I have a fingerprint reader built into the screen, FaceID kinda looks stupid right now with Covid.
(this I’m not gonna argue with, because it’s completely personal taste. I personally like picking up my phone, and having it immediately unlock and show me my notifications without having to touch it at a certain spot. But I could understand why someone would prefer a fingerprint reader over Face ID.)

Google assistant is way more accurate and gets it right on the first try compared to Siri.
(Google assistant is available in the App Store.)

If a person ate Ramen noodles their whole life, and knew not what a cooked duck tastes like, would they say that Ramen is the best ever?

If you’re trying to make the argument that the android is definitively better than the iPhone, you’re wrong. Neither is better, both have strengths and weaknesses. It’s a completely stupid argument to say that one is definitively better, when it’s just not true. Also, the majority of things that you put here are completely possible on iOS, you just have to put a little effort into getting them done.