Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

[Born2Run]

What bothers me is that older purchases in my apple account like the infinity blade series are not available to be downloaded anymore.
This is not right. How can they retroactivelly remove my purchases without refunding me or communicating with me?
This makes me really feel weird toward digital purchases . I feel they are more like digital leasing masquerading as purchases.
I understand to block whatever purchases from now on but blocking me from my digital property that i PAYED real money for ? This was purchased years ago when there were not any issues with epic. Why i am being hauled in their conflicts ?
If this passes, that means that any digital purchase you might have now could be removed in the future on any ecosystem if there is legal issues arising ? This is not right

I can still download Infinity Blade 1 & 3 (I never got 2) from the App Store, I just search for it in Purchased and it's there!

Also Epic were the ones who removed the games themselves:

Epic removes all Infinity Blade games from the App Store

Citing lack of resources to continue supporting the mobile franchise

www.theverge.com

 

[Alan Wynn]

Line by line quoting is an extremely obnoxious tactic in my opinion.

Sorry you do not like it, but it makes it much clearer to what someone is responding.

You aren't really looking to have a discussion, you're looking to cram your opinions down my throat and I don't appreciate it.

Seems to me, he is responding to each of your points, just as I am doing. I am fairly confident that nothing I say will change your mind (and my bet is that he feels the same way), so I am not "looking to cram [my] opinions down [your] throat" (or for that matter, anyone else's). What I am trying to do is ensure that others who have not decided can see others views and (sometimes) actual facts or case law example.

I think Apple banning their developer account for merely contesting their cut is absurd.

Apple did not ban them for "contesting their cut" they banned them for specific violations of the developer agreement (cited here many times, so I will not cite again) specifically hiding functionality.

Epic can decide to walk away of their own will, or complain while opting in begrudgingly, but to not be given a choice anymore is, once again, in my own opinion, absurdly authoritarian.

Epic had a choice and made it. Apple's developer agreement gives them the right to terminate an account immediately, but instead, they gave them 14 days to fix the breach or be removed. They had more than enough time to do it, but decided instead they would rather lose their developer account. You seem not to understand the facts of the case.

I think the fact that Amazon got their 15% shows cronyism and unequal treatment at its very core.

There is no requirement at all that Apple treat companies equally. It is Apple's store and they can do in it as they choose. If Epic do not feel it is worth it to sell in Apple's App Store they have every right not to do so.

 

[SubduedTiger]

Good. They knew what they were doing. Why should Apple go through all of this effort to create an ecosystem that others feel entitled to years later after years of success and distribution? Let Epic go create its own app store if it can't contribute a dime. Charge your users more, idiots. If they can't get wind of the fact that that rate is coming from Apple's subscriptions and the users are too stupid to sign up directly, why should Epic cry about compensating Apple for all of the costs involved? The very bandwidth users use to download the app in a virus-free atmosphere is coming from Apple's investment in infrastructure. I'm glad Apple has a spine here.

 

[Ethosik]

There's a key difference between a Playstation and an iPhone. A Playstation is sold as specialist gaming hardware, whereas a phone has become essential to everyday modern life. Those are taken into consideration when antitrust proceedings take place. It's the reason Microsoft lost 20 years ago as the web became more critical

That is not why Microsoft lost 20 years ago. They were trying to prevent Netscape from developing Navigator. Then trying to prevent it from being distributed. They also made it difficult for Java programs to be transferred.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Nintendo, etc have historically sold their hardware well below cost

Nintendo has never sold hardware below cost, historically or ever.

Amazon and Apple have made a side agreement to allow in-app movie rentals.

A ”side agreement” that is written into Apple’s rules and ANYONE can get access to the same rules without having to negotiate for it.

you could write that you own the first born Child by downloading an app in the TOS and it wouldn’t mean anything. A TOS is not above the law and once the court has made a ruling the TOS could be just thrown out of the window

TOS’s are important parts of the companies that many in congress have stock in. Just a few conversations with some of their biggest funders and they will make a lot of noise about it, but will, in the end maintain the status quo.

That's like me saying I give you $5 if you cut the grass on my front and back lawn, but you only did the front, so I had no choice but to not pay you.
I COULD have chosen to pay you but I decided I would not.

It depends on if you want to be known as someone that honors your words or not. If you’re a person that honors your word, then you’d be forced to not pay them. If you don’t care, then pay them. It’s just that, in the future, you probably won’t find anyone to do BOTH your front and back lawn. I mean, everyone knows they can just do the back and you’ll pay them anyway

Do you think Apple will be allowed to grow and grow and grow forever and still act as they do today? No.

No, some other company will come along and actually challenge their platform, very likely with their own App Store and features and capabilities that Apple can’t or won’t offer.

There is a simple way this can be resolved.

Apple creates a 2 tier developer platform. Keep the $99 a year standard platform with all the current rules for your small developer.

Go further, 2 tiered hardware. One that’s just like today’s, the other that’s just hardware, no OS, no App Store, no Apple services. Folks can buy into the ecosystem that works like todays, or you buy the one that can run any OS you find online, with any App Store companies make available and you install your own security bits and bobs.

 

[SuperMatt]

If Apple allowed Epic to do what they wanted, then they would have to let every app developer do the same thing. Then every app could be “free” and make you pay them directly in the app if you want the subscription. That would put Apple in the position of paying all the costs of maintaining the App Store and the distribution network and get zero money in return.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Every morning, my Android phone alarm goes off to Pandora radio, and when I shut it off, it turns the lights on in my room, tells me today's forecast, my appointments, and then reads me the news...I wake up daily to a better experience than Apple offers....

Glad you left and found an ecosystem that suits your needs. I am completely happy that there is another ecosystem out there that has made different choices than the one that I prefer. I have no interest in telling Google how they should run Android, so it constantly amazes me when I see Android users over here explaining that their way is the only way.

Frankly, I cannot even understand why you bother posting here at all.

If a person ate Ramen noodles their whole life, and knew not what a cooked duck tastes like, would they say that Ramen is the best ever?

Again, glad you love the choice you made. Seems like you spend an awful lot of time trying to convince strangers that your choice was great. You listed a whole bunch of things that must be awesome to you, but given that I cannot even be bothered to set a single schedule for do not disturb, nor have I even bothered to change my iPhone's default wall paper, none of the features you list are even interesting to me, let alone compelling reasons to switch.

What does matter to me is privacy, security and convenience. I like that I can download every app from one place, that I rarely have to set up additional payment accounts, that apps are required to disclose and ask permission before tracking me. I love being the customer, not the product. I am sure these reasons do not matter to you, which is also great.

Those who share your interests and needs should join you in your ecosystem. I only ask that they all stop trying to ruin mine, forcing changes that neither those who share my views, nor I want, just to make it more like that they want.

 

[Ethosik]

The Microsoft case and what's going on with Apple and Epic are very similar. Microsoft set terms and conditions on computer manufacturers that prevented them from packaging other web browsers with the machine. Microsoft at the time said, 'our operating, our rules'. The courts disagreed and forced Microsoft to change it's ways.

Now with regards to the app store, there are other pay systems out there that can be used by app developers but Apple say's they must use Apples pay system and can only use Apple's pay system otherwise they will get banned from the store and because there is only one store, app developers are forced to abide by the rules. Apple are doing exactly what Microsoft did all those years ago 'our app store, our rules'. The courts will disagree, just like they did with Microsoft.

Windows is an open system though. Anyone could develop any software and put it on a website or CD for others to use. iOS has always been locked down, since day one.

 

[Alan Wynn]

I did not update my IOS on my Apple iPhone! APPLE DID IT AGAINST MY WILL AND REMOVED ALL MY 32 BIT APPS AT THE SAME TIME, WITHOUT ANY OTHER OPTION! This has to have happened to other iPhone users with battery issues, not just me.

Actually, you have to either have set your iPhone to auto update (in which case it was not against your will), or you had to update it yourself. Apple does not update devices without one of those two conditions being true.

 

[Ash Pole]

Apple should divest from the App Store and spin it off. Just as eBay was forced to split from PayPal. How I pay for a product from a 3rd party is my business...not Apple's, not eBay's.

 

[4jasontv]

We removed an App last year but all the users who own it, can still download it (the latest version we uploaded). Simply no possibility for us to stop this* - so how exactly did Epic remove Infinity Blade so users are unable to download the latest version?

*)not to say that we did not want to, simple because the users who payed us own it (or a license to use it).

Like I said, by acting in a way that got their account deleted. You can’t get mad at Apple because a developer overstepped their bounds and set their store on fire.

 

[Ethosik]

Yes a "phone" is essential and the only other serious phone option available is Android, where Google has similar restrictions. Epic's suing both of them for antitrust.

The "oh, they only have 24% of the market" doesn't necessarily hold, because between Apple and Google they have near enough 100% of the platform market, and 100% of the IAP processing market.

Critically, they don't compete in IAP, since they only operate on their own platforms, not each others.

They use their platform (OS) domiance to avoid competition in another market (IAP), and preventing others from entering the IAP market (like Stripe). That's exactly what Microsoft was penalised for 20 years ago.

A phone essential, a smartphone is not. Get a jitterbug or something. There are more alternative dumb phones.

 

[cmaier]

Line by line quoting is an extremely obnoxious tactic in my opinion.

You’re entitled to your opinions, but there is nothing hostile about the practice. It makes it easier to follow threads.

 

[cmaier]

Couldn't Apple have reverted them to a previous build that didn't have payments in it?

Apparently the forbidden functionality was enabled on epic’s servers. So, no.

 

[Ethosik]

I'm sorry, did you install the Amazon App Store, Samsung Galaxy Store, GetJar, whatever Huawei store on your iPhone that "competes" with the Apple App Store? Oh wait...you can't. Therefore my point is valid. THERE ARE NO ALTERNATIVE ROUTES TO REACH THE CUSTOMER ON IOS. THIS IS FORCED MONOPOLY.

Epic didn't like Steam prices, so they made their own store, lowered the developers fees, and is taking Steam to the cleaners. You can't do that with Apple devices, you can't go make a competitor. Your stuck.

I am sorry, this constant complaint that NO ALTERNATIVE STORES EXIST regarding iOS is getting very irritating. Is there an Epic Store on PS4? What about Origin on PS4? No, its a similar locked down experience.

People then say "but phones are more critical than gaming consoles". Phones are, not smartphones. Get a Jitterbug or something for that Critical Phone experience.

 

[cmaier]

I think the fact that Amazon got their 15% shows cronyism and unequal treatment at its very core.

“Cronyism“ is “the appointment of friends and associates to positions of authority, without proper regard to their qualifications”

What does that have to do with anything?

And where did you get the idea that Apple has to treat all developers equally? Apple isn’t mommy and the developers are not apple’s kids. This is business. If I own a store and want to give my friends free stuff, I can. If I decide that instead of paying full price, a customer can give me a goat, I can.

 

[Ethosik]

A phone as a communication device may well be essential, being apple to play fortnite on said phone is not and never will be classed as essential

Yes, THANK YOU. A phone for communication is essential. A smartphone is not essential. That is why I know some people that just use Jitterbug phones.

 

[Ethosik]

Then lets force all retailers to put stickers on their products stating how much of each product they sell go to them,.
Walmart would not let a company put a sign on any of the products they sell informing the customers that Walmart take X% of the price they are paying. Walmart would say this is not relevant. In fact these things are purposely kept quiet so different suppliers dont what % the other are getting. At least Apple is fair any everyone is paying 30% and the few times it forced to offer the big boys a reduction there is uproar on the forum. Yet because apple wont give Epic or FB a special deal as they dont add the same value to apple as Netflix and Amazon these other billion dollar companies and spitting their dummy out

Not to mention if you do this for Sony or Microsoft on their game consoles, you would be breaking an NDA.

 

[cmaier]

I am sorry, this constant complaint that NO ALTERNATIVE STORES EXIST regarding iOS is getting very irritating. Is there an Epic Store on PS4? What about Origin on PS4? No, its a similar locked down experience.

People then say "but phones are more critical than gaming consoles". Phones are, not smartphones. Get a Jitterbug or something for that Critical Phone experience.

And their logic is self-contradictory. “Phones are more critical than game consoles! So the government should make Apple support lots of app stores. So I can perform critical functions! Like.... buying Epic’s games?”

I mean, if you are going to say that the reason iPhones should be treated differently than XBoxes is that iPhones are “critical,” you can’t point to this dispute about GAMES as an example of what should be permitted.

 

[Ethosik]

And their logic is self-contradictory. “Phones are more critical than game consoles! So the government should make Apple support lots of app stores. So I can perform critical functions! Like.... buying Epic’s games?”

I mean, if you are going to say that the reason iPhones should be treated differently than XBoxes is that iPhones are “critical,” you can’t point to this dispute about GAMES as an example of what should be permitted.

Yep. Just the phone part is critical. Not apps, There are NO apps that are considered critical. They are very nice to have, but not critical. This is why phones like the Jitterbug exist. Because a phone is critical, not a smartphone.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Apple should divest from the App Store and spin it off. Just as eBay was forced to split from PayPal. How I pay for a product from a 3rd party is my business...not Apple's, not eBay's.

eBay‘s shareholder’s forced them to divest PayPal because they felt they could make more money if PayPal was a separate entity (seems like a good call As PayPal is worth much more now and eBay is not doing as well).

As has been said many times, if you do not like the ecosystem, you should feel free to find one you like better.

 

[Alan Wynn]

If I decide that instead of paying full price, a customer can give me a goat, I can.

Just to be clear, Apple let me pay with a goat for my iPhone 11 Pro. Part of their sustainability program. :-D

 

[dukebound85]

Argument is that consoles are sold at a loss (or close to it) and that software sales cut make up for that. And most publishers negotiate the cut given to Microsoft, Sony, etc. Epic certainly does not pay 30% tax to console makers.

I don’t see why that is a factor. Epic certainly does not care about consoles selling at a loss and isn’t their concern.

 

[mi7chy]

I am sorry, this constant complaint that NO ALTERNATIVE STORES EXIST regarding iOS is getting very irritating. Is there an Epic Store on PS4? What about Origin on PS4? No, its a similar locked down experience.

It's more annoying to compare mobile with console when the more direct comparison for iOS is Android which does have alternative app stores and non-restrictive app side loading. Once FTC resolves the iOS app store monopoly then they can go after consoles.

 

[Ethosik]

Both platforms have significant marketshare. Difference is Android has alternative app stores and non-restrictive app side loading capability while iOS is a single app store monopoly with restrictive, short term and complicated app side loading. iOS should have the same options if not at least non-restrictive app side loading so consumers aren't harmed and continue to play Fortnite or, in my case, run open source Retroarch which Apple has blocked to promote paid apps and services. Those are the issues FTC antitrust laws need to address.

Why? You just compared two products with two different features. If the features on Android (open environment) is your preference, you go with that product. Does Affinity Photo and Photoshop have to have the EXACT SAME feature set to be competitors? No, each have their own unique features to make people go to one product over the other.