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This is mostly copy-pasta from the Facebook discussion, but seems just as relevant here. I spent enough time digging around on this that I feel justified cross-posting it. I haven't read all 1000+ posts here, so some of this may have already been touched on.

The AppStore is not a monopoly, it's a product. A product can't have a monopoly. A company can have a monopoly in a market. A market consists of products.

So, I'm just going to guess that when people say "the AppStore" is a monopoly, they mean that "Apple has a monopoly on iPhone application sales portals". Apple is the firm. iPhone application sales portals is the market.

In other words, people believe it is illegal, or at least inappropriate, that Apple has a monopoly over the user experience of their own product.


Scoping the relevant market that narrowly seems a bit silly to me.

Beyond being silly, it doesn't seem to have a lot of legal strength. For one, there's nothing about having a monopoly that demands legal intervention. Monopolies can be legally achieved, even through what might be considered aggressive business practices-- there are just some lines that can't be crossed.

One test of an illegal monopoly is whether a company abuses its monopoly power in one market to achieve monopoly power in another. What market would Apple have to have abused to achieve an illegal monopoly in iOS application sales portals? It seems the chokepoint is iOS, so the market would need to be mobile operating systems. But we seem to agree that Apple doesn't have a monopoly in mobile operating systems, so they don't have monopoly power to abuse.

One test for a monopoly, generally, is whether customers will change products if prices are raised. Not every customer, but the marginal customer-- the ones closest to leaving already. There are plenty of customers willing to accept higher prices because they think Apple provides additional value to them so the question addresses customers at the boundary. If Apple raised the prices on the App Store, would anyone leave to go to Android? The answer is certainly yes-- we see people declaring so in these forums all the time. So, the economic test for a monopoly fails.

And, in fact, Apple doesn't charge any more than other similarly positioned application sales portals on other platforms.

Finally, it is really worth reading an overview of the Psystar case. It feels like you could just do a search and replace on MacOS and understand why there's no Apple monopoly in the AppStore:

Some relevant points from the ruling, as taken from the article:

  • Apple responded to Psystar's argument by asserting that the company's definition of a market comprised of a single brand of a product is neither legally nor factually plausible. Judge Alsup agreed
  • "The counterclaim itself explains that Mac OS performs the same functions as other operating systems," he wrote. "The counterclaim admits that market studies indicate that, although Apple computers with Mac OS enjoy strong brand recognition and loyalty, they are not wholly lacking in competition."
  • "vigorous advertising is a sign of competition, not a lack thereof. If Mac OS simply had no reasonable substitute, Apple's vigorous advertising would be wasted money. The advertising campaigns suggest a need to enhance brand recognition and lure consumers from a competitor."
  • Apple makes it clear in courting its customers that they'll be locked into using the Mac OS only on Apple systems. "Apple asks its customers to purchase Mac OS knowing that it is to be used only with Apple computers," he wrote. "It is certainly entitled to do so."
By trying to scope the market to only iOS application sales portals, people are ignoring the dependencies of the product structure. They're fixated on a user's inability to change app stores on their iPhone and forgetting that they have latitude one level up at the hardware level.

Legality aside, is it desirable for Apple to hold full control over their platform? I don't see why not. If you put these arbitrary partitions between hardware, OS and tools, you make it impossible to innovate across those levels in more holistic ways-- and that is precisely the kind of innovation that Apple is known for.

There are two predominant system models out there-- iOS, which is closed and integrated from hardware to services, and Android which is open and disconnected with different companies providing different parts of the experience. This is quite similar to the Wintel/MacOS distiction. In fact, we tend to see this pattern recur in a number of different markets. And there's nothing to prevent other models and market entrants-- such as Linux coming in to further disrupt thinking in the OS market.

It is a competition of system views. Why would we want to extinguish that form of competition and force a single model on everyone?
 
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So the logic is, Epic figured iOS wasn't worth developing for unless they got more cash. Makes sense.

They COULD just charge more. I guess they haven't gotten to that part of the thought process yet. Give them time :)

So you would be cool with Apple’s fee being passed onto the consumer?
 
We were talking about apps like Maps...

No, we were not. We were talking about third party apps from the App Store. Maps is not, nor has it every been, a third party app. It existed before the App Store and would exist even if the App Store went away. Even more so, as it is now all on Apple’s own Maps infrastructure, so as I said, completely irrelevant.
 
No, we were not. We were talking about third party apps from the App Store. Maps is not, nor has it every been, a third party app. It existed before the App Store and would exist even if the App Store went away. Even more so, as it is now all on Apple’s own Maps infrastructure, so as I said, completely irrelevant.
Yes, I've been talking about maps on the previous posts. What I said in the beginning was different entirely.
 
Apple doesn't make all the apps on App Store.
App distribution is a relevant and separate market on iOS. (see Android, where they are multiple distributors despite that Google made Android).
Apple illegally ties their App Store to iOS.

Now for something I didn’t realize, just a few days ago, the FTC/Qualcomm case spurred back into life in Qualcomm’s favor, with the opinion that “Anticompetitive behavior is illegal under federal antitrust law. Hypercompetitive behavior is not.”


The impact of a federal court overturning a vigorous antitrust ruling could have serious ramifications, including on the rulings of district court judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers, who is overseeing Epic v. Apple, alongside two other Apple-related cases.

“[Gonzalez Rogers’] colleague on the northern district of California wrote a 233 page, very detailed, fact-finding opinion, and it was just summarily thrown out root and branch,” said Lemley. “I think that’s got to affect how far the judge is willing to stick her neck out on this issue.”

 
That is the majority of EPIC goal in this trial. It will be challenging as so many store are the same. They are attempting to challenge this general percentage taken by challenging Apple and Google in court.

They mention none of that in their emails to Apple. They want to side load their App Store. They don’t give a crap about other developers.
 
They mention none of that in their emails to Apple. They want to side load their App Store. They don’t give a crap about other developers.

Correct, if Epic gets their way they’ll use it as way to do the same to all platforms. This isn’t about developers, it’s simple greed.
 
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They mention none of that in their emails to Apple. They want to side load their App Store. They don’t give a crap about other developers.
IMHO getting Apple to allow side loading is far fetched. At best they can try for getting less commission % against their micro transactions while playing the game. :)
 
No. My post doesn’t call for citing a law,

Do you really think asking people to cite things under rules you set counts as discrediting? 😂

Actually those are the rules at MacRumors.

So yes, I’m asking again for citations. You claimed a fact. I’m asking you for citations to support that fact.


Rules:
  1. Sources. If you claim that something's a fact, back it up with a source. If you can't produce evidence when someone asks you to cite your sources, we may remove your posts. If you started the thread, then we may remove or close the thread.
 
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Makes me question your competence when you can't spell PSYSTAR right.
The Psystar court relied on a previous case where it was determined that "company's unique operating system software and hardware is not a relevant market; rather the relevant market is all 'small business computers'"(https://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/candce/3:2008cv03251/204881/16, page 7). Nothing was said about App Store, which is NOT part of the operating system.
It has nothing to do with App Store or operating system, that’s not even relevant. Here’s what is:

You can’t define the market so narrowly that it only includes a single brand, then claim that brand has a monopoly.

The relevant market isn’t app stores for iPhones, the relevant market is app stores for smartphones. [edit: I should have said the relevant market is smartphones, not app stores for smartphones.]

But even though Apple doesn’t have a monopoly, there are still rules. If Apple is in violation, they’ll be set right by the court.
 
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Ridiculous.
Roku and HBO are competitors.
Is Epic asking to open a store on App Store? Epic has stated clearly in their email to Apple that they want a separate store.
They also clearly stated that they still want Apple’s App Store to carry their app, which would then steal the 30% due Apple for Epic’s own purposes.

They’ve also apparently sent the same letter to Google, even though Android already has third party stores and payment processors.

So what does Epic really want, since third party app stores and alternate payment processors aren’t enough?
 
The Psystar court relied on a previous case where it was determined that "company's unique operating system software and hardware is not a relevant market; rather the relevant market is all 'small business computers'"
(https://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/candce/3:2008cv03251/204881/16, page 7). Nothing was said about App Store, which is NOT part of the operating system.

In the IE case, Microsoft was selling Windows 95 to third parties and then trying to require that those third parties not install a particular piece of software (Netscape Navigator). Apple does not sell iOS to anyone. Apple sells iPhones, iPads, iPads Pro, Macs, Apple TVs, and Apple Watch. The Pystar case is directly relevant, as just like in that one, the market is all mobile devices, and Apple’s devices by themselves are not a market. Given that Apple has never sold any of its components unbundled, their can be no tying claim.
 
Illegally TIES.
Do you understand what tying means?
What else is Apple requiring their customers to buy?


Apple doesn't make all the apps on App Store.
App distribution is a relevant and separate market on iOS. (see Android, where they are multiple distributors despite that Google made Android).
Apple illegally ties their App Store to iOS.
That’s not tying...
 
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Illegally TIES.
Do you understand what tying means?

Tying occurs when you won’t let me buy one thing (which you have a monopoly on) without also buying another thing, no?

I don’t recall buying the App Store app? I’m confused. Please explain.

 
Tying occurs when you won’t let me buy one thing (which you have a monopoly on) without also buying another thing, no?

I don’t recall buying the App Store app? I’m confused. Please explain.


You don't recall agreeing to the Terms and Conditions of App Store?
 
In the IE case, Microsoft was selling Windows 95 to third parties and then trying to require that those third parties not install a particular piece of software (Netscape Navigator). Apple does not sell iOS to anyone. Apple sells iPhones, iPads, iPads Pro, Macs, Apple TVs, and Apple Watch. The Pystar case is directly relevant, as just like in that one, the market is all mobile devices, and Apple’s devices by themselves are not a market. Given that Apple has never sold any of its components unbundled, their can be no tying claim.

Apple licensed iOS to every end user. The fact that Apple never unbundled App Store and iOS does not make them one and the same.
 
Are you aware of the fact that Apple sold that many iPhones just because of the apps? Without Instagram, Twitter, SnapChat, WhatsApp, Facebook and all the other apps Apple would be some kind of Blackberry today and Blackberry itself would still exist.
Apple stock would probably be somewhere around 600 billion dollars. Those 2 trillion dollars just wouldn‘t exist without the developers.

This is really a chicken and the egg. Once can argue that Apple and creating a centralized app store has fueled Facebook and Snap reaching their valuation levels without that, they wouldn't be anywhere close to where they are now.
 
Tying occurs when you won’t let me buy one thing (which you have a monopoly on) without also buying another thing, no?

I don’t recall buying the App Store app? I’m confused. Please explain.

Those using IE on Windows never "bought" IE either. But it was illegal tying nonetheless.
 
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