Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
I think Apple should go ahead and put the ARM processor in the MacBook Air right away. Do it now. Oh yeah, that would really show Intel who is boss :D I mean the MBA is just an iPad with a keyboard. Anybody want to guess the number of thumbs down votes this post will have by sunrise?
 
This just shows you what lazy sloths the Win PCs makers are. It takes tiny Apple (on market share basis) to force Intel to make more efficient chips. The Win fans can hate on Apple all day, but the fact remains, but-for Apple going Intel, PC hardware would be as horrible now as they was ten years ago.
Excellent post. Apple care about power consumption. Proof of this is the 27 i7 costs more then the 21.5 i7. But Apple chose the more expensive i7 for the 21.5 cause it used less power.

Only if all the windows box manufacturers actually cared about stuff like this.
 
Why Intel want Apple:

Small marketshare but this scenario is very likely:

Apple: Your chips stink. Fix them.
Intel: Sure and who's going to fund our R&D to fix them?
Apple: We will, take some cash and get us the product we want.

When you have a customer who can help fund your R&D or is some cases pay all of the R&D for a particular product you don't say no. You say anything you can to keep them.
 
ARM is promising, but it will still be a while before they can compete with intel in the mainstream desktop/laptop market. It will happen, just not quite yet.

As for AMD, while their newer processors are a nice improvement, they are still behind intel's CPUs. However, if Apple could offload the heavy lifting onto the GPU in AMDs recent fusion chips, possibly with CUDA, then the AMD stuff might be comparable to a ULV sandy. Apple has multiple options.

The only reason I can see for Intel taking Apple seriously is that they see the market shifting. They either humor Apple now, when they were demanding more efficient processors, or lose more than just Apple. Apple would switch to something else, and everyone would just follow Apple once the advantages are demonstrated. Overnight, Intel would become the new Via.
 
ARM is promising, but it will still be a while before they can compete with intel in the mainstream desktop/laptop market. It will happen, just not quite yet.

As for AMD, while their newer processors are a nice improvement, they are still behind intel's CPUs. However, if Apple could offload the heavy lifting onto the GPU in AMDs recent fusion chips, possibly with CUDA, then the AMD stuff might be comparable to a ULV sandy. Apple has multiple options.

The only reason I can see for Intel taking Apple seriously is that they see the market shifting. They either humor Apple now, when they were demanding more efficient processors, or lose more than just Apple. Apple would switch to something else, and everyone would just follow Apple once the advantages are demonstrated. Overnight, Intel would become the new Via.

Note that CUDA is strictly an Nvidia technology. OpenCL provides a programming model that is virtually identical to CUDA. AMD supports OpenCL very well.

Can the "heavy lifting" be offput on the GPU? The answer is not really. Mostly tasks that are massively parallel, heavily floating point based, and which use simple logic benefit from GPU acceleration. This includes graphics and games, video, some scientific computation, some cryptography, and other things. It will not speed application launches, Email, javascript, compiling, search indexing, databases, etc. Even in some applications where you'd think it would be great, like ray tracing, you get mixed results. For the handful of applications where it does help, however, it helps a lot, often with speedups of 30x - 100x.
 
It's inevitable that the 2012 MacBook Air is going to run on the A6 processor. The MacBook Pro line will be on the A7 by 2013. Apple will continue buying Xeons for the Mac Pros and that's it.
 
Ms for example is building windows 8 for both x86 and arm.ARM is good small scale but does not scale up very well to high speed demands in terms of power usage. X86 and ARM do not work as well in the others playing field.
Apple doing arm only in things like the air would work but not all the laptops

I think you have a good point there. Windows 8 is being build with ARM Support... and I guess that is where the major heat is coming from blowing into Intels face right now.

I do not think this bit about Apple is a reason for Intel to rethink the next steps along the roadmap. Actualy it is not even a primary Hardware issue but Apple seems to blow the same whistle as Microsoft did when announcing ARM compatibility with Windows 8 (could sound like "Hey Intel, we are willing to support ARM and give the customer a real choice to buy the hardware they want to get the job done...")

To sum this up Apple and Microsoft are opening up th OSes to ARM, I think Linux can already run on ARM (not shure about this as I only have had contact with linux in server enviourments) so basicaly no matter what OS you run, you will be able to use ARM or x86/x64.

On a sidenote, does anyone think this "move" by Apple was somewhat forced upon them by microsoft? At least for me the power consumption is the number one asset of a highly portable computer (given it needs to have enough punch to get the job done). So if a windows-based Laptop would significantly surpass my MBP's battery life while still delivering a compareable performance I would not realy hesitate to make a switch...but that is just me ;-)
 
On a sidenote, does anyone think this "move" by Apple was somewhat forced upon them by microsoft? At least for me the power consumption is the number one asset of a highly portable computer (given it needs to have enough punch to get the job done). So if a windows-based Laptop would significantly surpass my MBP's battery life while still delivering a compareable performance I would not realy hesitate to make a switch...but that is just me ;-)

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure Apple has had the "ARM on Mac" as part of their overall roadmap for 2 years now. Apple has nothing to learn from Microsoft.
 
It's inevitable that the 2012 MacBook Air is going to run on the A6 processor. The MacBook Pro line will be on the A7 by 2013. Apple will continue buying Xeons for the Mac Pros and that's it.

You can bet your butt Apple has a development version of Mac OS X somewhere running on ARM (and no, I don't mean iOS). But 2012? Seriously? Maybe if consumers were willing to accept a Macbook AIR that is about 4x slower than the current iteration (or worse), and if Apple started shipping dev kits off within months (remember with the Intel switch they provided developers with kits more than 6 months before the first Intel based Mac hit the market).
 
AMD would have been x86 as well.

And yeah, it was specifically x86. It's amazing how many people I got to switch when having a VM available. That market is pretty large. Half the Mac users in this office have to rely on VMs.

Which means that they haven't actually switched - they now run TWO systems at the same time and have to deal with additional complexity and additional problems. What did they gain? Additional costs and more headaches.

VMs are awesome tools for DEVELOPERS. But as a user, if you cannot move to a new platform 100%, then don't even think about a migration. It's not worth it.

About the whole CPU and OS merging story:

Apple only sells a fistful of Mac Pros and they don't even sell servers anymore. In that segment, I'm pretty sure Intel wouldn't even notice it if Apple switched to somebody else.

Mobile CPUs... That's a different story. Apple is a prestigious customer here and most of the Macs that Apple sells are notebooks. Yes, losing Apple would hurt Intel, but certainly not as much as some folks here think. The PC market is fragmented, sure, but that certainly is not a problem for Intel. They don't care if they have to sell to a million customers or only a few dozen as long as most players in the fragmented market use Intel chips. And thus far, they all do. So even talking about a fragmented market here doesn't really make sense. I'm pretty sure Exxon doesn't care much about the fragmentation in the automobile industry either as long as all cars need gas...

The merging of iOS and OS X. Like I've said before, it's inevitable and the next thing to come. It will be interesting to see HOW Apple is going to do it, but it's not a question of IF they will do it. Maybe they'll add a compatibility layer to OS X (like Rosetta) that can run iOS applications. Maybe they are planning iOS gadgets that are powerful enough to run OS X applications in a virtualized environment. Maybe they will "simply" add all the missing OS X APIs to iOS and thus make the platform feature complete enough to become the natural successor of OS X. But at this point: Who knows what route they will take.

Personally, I expect them to close the shop on "old" OS X and use the foundation of iOS instead. iOS is a closed platform, just the thing that Apple loves so much.

On the hardware front, seeing that quad core processors for mobile phones are expected before the end of this year, I'm pretty sure that they won't have to rely on x86/x64 CPUs for much longer. The computing power of the next generation of iPads and iPhones will be sufficient for the average Apple customer, even if those devices have to run software monsters like Aperture or Final Cut. Let's not forget that Apple is a CONSUMER company, and most consumers simply don't need an air craft carrier to go shopping.

Then there is this huge data center and the forthcoming iCloud, that will be an essential component of the next version of iOS and all other Apple software. When you plan to move your customers to the cloud, why shouldn't you also move most of their number crunching and computing power consuming tasks to the cloud as well? Provided that you have enough mobile bandwidth, there is no reason why all the processing has to be done on the mobile gadget or the desktop PC at home. With a billion dollar server farm in the background, you can basically turn an iPad into a remote control for all kinds of powerful software. Basically, that's what Google is trying with the ChromeBooks or what this company is doing that let's you play real PC games on an iPad through terminal sessions.

I think that in the future, a lot of intelligence that used to be on the client device will move to the cloud and with devices that are always online, users won't feel a difference (at least as long as their Internet connection doesn't break down). Local CPU power won't be that important anymore.
 
Thank you! You hit the exact same point I came to make.




Not MacBook Pros, but it could be a possibility with the MacBook Air.

Considering AMD processors use more power and give less performance, I highly doubt that's an option for Apple. Their IGP is the only thing that's better than Intel's.
 
Interesting post. I don't quite agree with the VM statement because the problem with OS X (thus Macs) are really about 3rd party support for software titles, that keeps PC users glued to the PC platform (Windows). I see it almost exactly like the old Betamax vs VHS debate. Sure Beta was a superior format, but VHS already won the hearts of the public and vendor support for VHS was clearly better.

Virtualization is an incredible tool for everyone, not just developers and I don't believe anyone should be forced to simply rely on 1 OS for all their needs. I think it's great that with VM's, we have choices that weren't available before.

With Apple trying to bully Intel, I don't see Intel in any sort of panic to worry about losing Apple support, Intel's made it this far very successfully without Apple being a major partner with them until the PPC to Intel changeover. What I do forsee is how 3rd party vendors who dedicated their products for Intel-Mac support are going to get burned should Apple decide on dumping Intel for ... uh, ARM? AMD? VIA? The next PPC CPU?
 
Spin it however you want, but power consumption pretty much dictates how good a machine is these days.

Agreed - these days computers are 'fast enough' for most people. Obviously, hard core gamers will disagree but they are in the minority (they will also disagree with that too).
 
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

I've made my prediction about the forthcoming "MacPad" type product that'll be ARM powered before, this lends more credence to it.

I think the future will be ARM based. A new architecture and a brave new world where the only apps are those blessed by Apple and only available through the Apple App store.
 
ARM is the future but its still at least 5 to 7 years away. Who knows what Intel or AMD or even nVidia will throw in in the meantime. So future is unpredictable pretty much.
 
Are YOU serious? Apple has 5%, AMD has 20% (mostly low end) and the rest is Intel territory. Intel couldn't care less. Maybe YOU should learn basic maths.
What does it matter how fragmented the market is if everyone is buying Intel anyway? Dell and HP buy several times the amount of CPUs from Intel than Apple, and if you think that they aren't buying highend CPU, then think again, because Apple doesn't sell anything in the corporate market where people usually don't mind spending a bit more on their computers.
Mac Pros don't matter AT ALL, they aren't selling very well. Why do you think Apple updates them only rarely anymore?

You are absolutely clueless. Totally clueless. Look at an Intel CPU price list. Notice the large number of CPUs offered at $50, $60, $70. Notice that no Apple product contains any of these CPUs; the CPUs that Apple uses start above $200. Apple may have 5% of the PC market share, but this market counts a huge number of netbooks with <$50 CPUs. And an awful lot of cheap laptops and cheap PCs containing those cheap CPUs. Intel doesn't care how many CPUs you buy, but how much money you spend. My estimate is that in Intel CPUs for PCs, laptops and netbooks, Apple spends more than a quarter of all money.

And you may not have realised it yet, but Apple tends to know where the money is. If Apple says "we want you to make CPUs with low TDP", then Intel does it. Not just because Apple is a customer with purchasing power, but because Apple is a customer that tends to know where the market is going. If Apple asks for low TDP today, then you can bet that Dell, HP and all the rest will ask for low TDP tomorrow.
 
Not sure about the comment regarding Netbooks. Netbooks are still a niche market item, considering Netbooks have been around longer than the iPad (any generation), the iPad completely wiped the floor of any Netbook competition.

A Netbook, almost by definition, implies Atom CPU's. Even the flagship dual-core Atom 330 fell to AMD's Fusion ALU Chipset (Zacate CPU's) in just about every category. AMD's fighting Intel really well in that battle for CULV products, while Atom systems can boast longer battery times, AMD fires back with "well with an E-350 CPU, you can run real apps on a full OS".

This means more ARM CPU's have sold over any Atom product.

From my POV Apple's done a great job at marketing their products, it's the best brainwashing without any real brainwashing I've ever seen. People walk around everyday chanting how Apple's the best, how their products are the best, how the company can do no wrong, Steve Jobs is a saint, etc. People will buy Apple products without knowing what they're really buying, they'll buy it simply because it's an Apple item. I run into people everyday about how they want an iPhone and none of them can explain to me why they want one other than other people have them.

I don't see anything wrong with the above, in fact I'd go as far as saying that most companies only wished they could have the same effect on consumers as successfully as Apple has. However I believe that this is just a trend, Apple's enjoying their success and I applaud them for it, however the whole Apple trend, in my opinion, will get old eventually. People will start to realize that the world's much larger than the Apple Store and inevitably will start looking at other up and coming companies to dazzle them with their products and services.
 
Last edited:
G5 was/is a real 64bit CPU. X86 uses 64bit extensions.
That is the reason why you don't see any performance gains in X86 when using 64bit program. Actually, on X86 performance decrease in 64bit by 3%. Why use 64bit when it is slower?

What even makes you think 64 bit is about performance ?

64 bit is about addressing and register width.

Memory? Intel had already 38bit memory addressing.

PAE was a hack. I have Linux machines right now with 128 GB of memory, which means I need 64 bit, PAE just doesn't cut it.

ARM has no 64 bit plans right now and Intel offers the lower power consumption 64 bit chips right now. What exactly was Apple going to move to ? AMD is the only answer here.

And seriously, everyone calling Intel "lazy" over this story is setting themselves up for a "foot in the mouth" moment. This is just idle speculation and rampant rumors, don't discuss things as if this story was somehow fact. It could bite you in the ass in the long term when all this is shown to be false.
 
Last edited:
Why would apple have different set of processors on different PC's?

iMac's with Intel and Macbook's with AMD/ARM? Never gonna happen.

Why not?

I could see Apple release a Macbook Air with ARM. However, I do not see them using ARM in any of their desktop offerings, at least for many years.
 
I really can't see Apple dropping to a much slower chip after giving us i7 upgrades. I Say No Way.

I agree. All indications seem to be that for the Mac, Apple is still interested in providing performance, but they want better "performance per watt" as Steve Jobs mentioned during the PowerPC to Intel transition.

The Intel chips were powerful enough to run PowerPC programs in (Rosetta) emulation with decent speed, which made the PowerPC to Intel transition go smoothly. That is currently not the case with ARM.

So - would Apple fragment the Mac line with an Air that runs ARM and other products running Intel, which would then require either a Universal Binary or two separate programs to be written for a Mac? Maybe, but I don't see Apple doing this unless they absolutely have to.
 
With Apple trying to bully Intel, I don't see Intel in any sort of panic to worry about losing Apple support,

"Bully Intel" into making more efficient chips?? That's like saying someone is trying to bully Porsche into making faster cars. Making a better product is in Intel's best interest. A more efficient chip would be more attractive to ALL of Intel's customers, and would thus improve Intel's bottom line.

Hardly what I would call "bullying".
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.