Apple Threatens to Terminate Epic Games' Developer Accounts on August 28

[gnipgnop]

Some might point out that consoles do the same thing, but Epic brings up a good point about how phones can be "general computing devices"

That actually undermines Epic's argument. If an iPhone/iPad is a general computing device just like an iMac/Macbook, why are the prices for software generally cheaper on iOS (with a single store) than on macOS (with a wide variety of stores)? Their entire argument is based on the idea that fewer choices = higher prices, but that doesn't fit with what consumers are experiencing using Apple hardware.

 

[macsimcon]

No matter how you cut it 30% is an obscene take.
Either Apple needs to allow side loading, so I don't have to use their platform OR they need to come up with some better terms.
You don't get to completely control access to the platform and then charge obscene fees.
Google fits into the same boat, almost. You can side load apps on a Google/Android device.
There is no requirement that you use their store.

I think the smart move here is a graduated pricing model like Microsoft's. But I don't see how the government makes Apple do that.

 

[bobmans]

Now Epic going to act like Apple is the bad guy again.

This whole thing was never about the 30% btw, Epic their real goal is to have it's own iOS app store so they can be the one charging other developpers commision.

 

[theotherphil]

Oh I completely agree with you, but if United States v. Microsoft Corporation (2001) is any indicator, this is precisely the solution the Courts will prescribe. Apple will surely allow third party app stores over closing its own App Store for the sake of avoiding competition/the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a "Which App Stores Would You Like to Install?" prompt in next 3-5 years.

You keep repeating this as if it somehow fits the current situation which it doesn’t. MS was a monopoly in the market it operated in (OS) AND used that power to COERCE OEM’s into installing Windows on their devices prior to shipping with THREAT of financial sanctions.

Here, Apple own all their own hardware AND software and are not using their position to force others to install either iOS OR the App Store on non Apple hardware. Apple are NOT a monopoly in any market they operate.

Apple is a closed system - hardware, software and services.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

If Apple were to adopt the same scheme (think competition), I'm sure there would have far less legal headaches.

So you are thinking that an Epic Games that’s paying 15% as a small developer would be perfectly fine once they got larger and had to pay 30%? Somehow, I don’t think that a company that doesn’t want to pay 30% today would want to pay 30% if they knew other smaller developers were only paying 15%.

Without gaming, iOS will become a niche platform losing money in no time.

iOS IS a niche platform for gaming. AAA games are released on a myriad of other platforms with VERY few every coming to iOS. For the gaming that they DO have, I don’t see those developers, that are currently raking in money hand over fist, is going to follow Epic.

And fortunately for Apple, people have, amazingly enough, figured out how to use iOS in non-gaming ways. I’m guessing that will continue. (Oh, and some use the iPhone as a phone only. Thought I should include that)

OK, how would you regulate Apple? Are you going to break them up? Force them to lower their cut? What?

Restrict the number of phones Apple is able to sell per year. The CORE issue according to many is that Apple just sells far too many darned devices. So many, that the competition is helpless to sell more than 60% of competing devices. The only way to stimulate competition, apparently, is to limit sales of the iPhone and iPad. Perhaps with fewer of them available, the competition would flourish, shrinking the outsized impact of the App Store and bringing real options and choice.

Simple, Elegant, and Easy. Of course, I’m still getting MY iOS device, so someone else is going to have to give up theirs.

 

[ossifer]

Are Trader Joe’s operating a monopoly if they’re the only ones selling Trader Joe’s food?

I'm going to bring some home-cooked food to my local TJ's, use their shelving/cooling/marketing, plug my own cash register into their electrical outlet, and start taking customers' money. And I refuse to pay anything to TJ's!

 

[edolecki]

I would think that by agreeing to Apple's rules of the developer account(s) and the App Store, Epic knew what they were getting into when they started. Now, they want to change the rules to better suit themselves. They can either abide, or use another mechanism of distribution.

 

[russell_314]

Apple is being pressured by people who are greedy and want a larger cut of the pie. For Apple to maintain an App Store it has to charge a fee. Epic wants to bypass the App Store and pay Apple nothing. So this means without the current App Store iOS would be a lot less secure similar to Android.

Oh but you say Epic doesn’t want to shut down the App Store they just want to bypass it to save 30%. Well if they're allowed to do it then everyone will want to do it and basically everything will just leave the App Store except the free apps. Then Apple will be unable to maintain the App Store without any revenue to support it thus it will close.

Epic games is a bit hypocritical here because they don’t even allow third party app stores. Why you say? Because if they had to allow devs to bypass their app store then why pay extra for the Epic app store and they wouldn't make money off of Fortnite. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander so why don’t we force epic to open up their game? 😂😂🤦‍♂️

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

I honestly don't know how people can side with Epic.

So they believe that a 30% cut of their App Store revenue - which every developer accepts, along with a mountain of other conditions, at the time of sign-up - is too much.

Fine. So why then accept the contract in the first place? Why go all these years doing business with Apple, only to suddenly conjure up a P.R plan to make Apple look like the bad guys?

If Epic was really looking out for the consumer, then they wouldn't make a game that's rated 12+ (with sound effects captured from real weapons) available for free to anyone to download, then make key features for progression paid-for. That's an awful way to do business.

Apple aint done anything wrong. They laid out terms at the inception of the App Store and developers have willingly accepted them. 30% is relative; a lot to some, a little to others, but the key thing to remember here is that nothing has changed on Apple's behalf since this was put into place. There are plenty of other platforms.

It's all well for people to say "Needs to be 10%!! 15!! 20%" Yeah - those numbers are baseless and plucked out from ones rear-end. The quality of Apple's App Store experience, the payment processes, the marketing, are all factors that work with developers, not against them.

My guess is that Epic have realise they don't have a sustainable business model, and thus want to 'rock the boat' by getting a bunch of kids who don't understand the first thing about business to take sides, because it's edgy.

 

[twolf2919]

Apple is as bad as MS of their era.
The amount of pro-Apple bias, even on a fan site like MR is unbelievable.

The same people would have rooted against the MS monopoly of past, now rooting for the Apple monopoly (cause Apple is somehow their friend).

That Apple can even cut out a company that displeases them shows how artificially locked-down their devices are. No consumer wins from that.

At the risk of repeating a line ad nauseam: "Apple doesn't have a monopoly". The "App Store" market has two participants: Apple and Google, with the latter having 4 times as many customers. Within the "iOS App Store", the market's participants are all the app developers/apps. There, too, Apple doesn't hold a dominant position - I don't know if any of Apple's apps that are available on its App Store are even in the top 10?!

Apple developed the iPhone and a store from which iPhones can download apps. Apple saw the usefulness of allowing other apps to be available to users on the store, provided they followed rules that are clearly specified. If you don't like them, don't develop software for sale on the iOS App Store. It's quite simple.

To equate this with Microsoft's monopoly position is quite ill-informed. Microsoft competed with others in the markets of word processing, spreadsheets, and browsers - in all of these cases there were other participants who were selling to the same customers. MS then used its monopoly on the operating system to undercut/kill off the competition. It abused its monopoly. Aside from not even having a monopoly in any market with other competitors, it's not even trying to kill off competition!

 

[Realityck]

How Apple’s 30% App Store Cut Became a Boon and a Headache - New York Times

Before Mr. Cook’s testimony to Congress, at a House hearing focused on the power of Big Tech, Apple commissioned a study that showed its cut was in line with what many other platforms charged for similar distribution, including the app stores from Google, Microsoft and Samsung, and the game stores from Nintendo, Sony’s PlayStation and Microsoft’s Xbox.

Amazon’s Twitch gaming platform collects 50 percent, according to the study. By comparison, Amazon, eBay and Walmart charge 6 percent to 17 percent for sales of goods on their websites, the study said.

What the study didn’t note: Apple popularized the 30 percent cut.

It applied that rate on any purchases of an app in 2008, and then a year later on any transactions inside of apps for digital goods and services, such as a virtual currency in a game or a subscription to a music, TV or dating app. Apple does not take a cut of apps’ sales of advertising or physicals goods, and thus most apps don’t pay a fee.

So how did Apple arrive at 30 percent?

There was some precedent; Apple had been charging roughly the same commission on music sales on its iTunes software. For each 99 cent song it sold, Apple passed on 72 cents to major music labels and 62 cents to independent labels, according to The Wall Street Journal in 2007.

When Apple began setting rules for the App Store, “30 percent was just kind of a no-brainer,” said Mr. Shoemaker, who joined the company in early 2009. “It was, ‘Of course that’s what we’re going to use.’ Nobody questioned it.”

In 2008, when Apple introduced the App Store, the company’s late co-founder Steve Jobs told The New York Times: “We are not trying to be business partners” with app developers. Rather, he added, Apple wanted to “sell more iPhones.”

At the time, there was far less pushback from app developers, in part because the App Store was so nascent and the digital transactions were complicated without Apple’s help.

With Apple, “it was pretty much one click and that was revolutionary,” Mr. Shoemaker said. “So people were willing to bite that 30 percent. But now, those kinds of tools are a dime a dozen.”

Indeed, many companies now protesting Apple’s fee seem willing to pay something, just not 30 percent.

So here we have the pro apple gang saying that all the other App stores are doing it, but guess who did this originally . . . .Apple. The 30% is based on the iTunes music sales commission, not selling iOS apps. So all this time Apple has not felt the need to adjust that for totally different sales. Amazing.

 

[BigSur]

Good. Nothing of value was lost. Would be nice to see some talented American game studio create a Fortnite "inspired" game.

 

[Wildkraut]

Google also removed Fornite from
Their play store.

These AppStore restrictions will fall apart.
With every move of Apple, they just shows that they have too much power over devices, users and a monopoly.

Maybe it was Googles intention to "indirectly" help Epic by also kicking them out, in a way that later the judges see these restrictions even more as a general insult, that way Google can offer their PlayStore on The Apple platform with more freedom to e.g. set default apps and other things.

 

[jole]

On Apple devices there are two ways of building and distributing apps: Xcode+AppStore and web.

Both work and Apple just invest more in first one. First one has higher price tag, second one is free.

Good luck arguing in court that not getting the premium way for free is monopoly.

Welcome to WebGL Unreal and good luck.

 

[EatinPonies]

This is lame. Epic shows up to the sandbox with their own dumptruck and then demands that the rules get changed simply because they don't like them? I agree that Apple charges too much, but Epic knew the rules of the game before they showed up to play. They wouldn't have had anywhere near the success they've experienced without Apple. Biting that hand that feeds you...

 

[Naaaaak]

Think about every game and product built with Unreal Engine.

Apple just announced they are willing to knee cap *all of them* in their crossfire against Epic.

If Epic can’t build and ship updates for Apple devices, all the companies that built apps on Epic’s tooling are dead-in-the-water for future updates. Stuff might keep working for some time, but their biggest dependency will be EOL on Apple platforms on August 28 if nothing changes. Their futures are gone.

1000+ developers using Unreal ought to sign on to Epic‘s lawsuit (or file one of their own against Apple) to protect their own business interests. Apple announced they are more than willing to F-over innocent devs here.

Tell me “it’s their rules / their platform” Apple defenders: who is helped by this?

How does this level of vindictiveness and bitterness help app devs or the consumer?

This is how a monopoly behaves.

 

[nebo1ss]

Someone needs to take Apple on with the 30 % tax. It needs to be someone with deep pockets and it would appear Epic fit that description. There will be a lot of support from developers who don't have the resources to fight this battle.

 

[borgein]

I don't like that I can't run Microsoft Office on my Apple TV. I don't like that I can't run Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 on macOS. So because I dislike something, the developer should be forced to do my bidding? How is that fair?

If you think a contract is unfair, don't sign it. Or move to another platform. Awwww, but you can't, can you? Because nobody on Android buys anything, whereas iPhone users buy a ton of software. Apple created an attractive marketplace for their minority-share product. They can do with it what they want.

I would like to have my BMW delivered with a Mercedes engine and an Audi drive-train.
I find it unfair that BMW has a monopoly on BMW engines and parts in their cars.

Sure, I could always hack it and change the engines and parts in my own garage, but legally I would likely never be able to put plates on the car, or get insurance, or anything else, except the right to drive it on my own private property.

 

[DeadeyeM]

Apple sounds to me more and more like a Communist dictatorship company

 

[andywaynebrooks]

Epic is upset that they can’t violate the written terms and conditions they agreed too? They deserve to have the account suspended since they are not only attempting to violate those terms and are now using their bad behavior and clear violation to abuse our legal system too. It's one thing to attempt (and fail) to abuse terms and conditions that a judge will see that you agree to and then purposely violated, but now you are abusing tax dollars and court time. Thats even worse.

 

[DeanL]

Good. If I violated the developer agreement I’d be cut off. Nice to see Apple uniformly applying the rules we all agree to.

Everyone really needs to stop with this “Nice to see Apple uniformly applying the rules” when they cut backdoor deals with certain companies like they did with Amazon so they’re not charged 30%.
The premise of your argument is invalid because Apple does not, and has never applied its developer rules uniformly, despite what they claim, and that is precisely the reason why there is an uproar in the developer community and why Apple is being investigated by antitrust bodies around the world.

 

[farewelwilliams]

No way, if I ever did what Epic did I would have gotten my developer account banned day 1. Apple is being a lot more lenient because they're a large corporation and every move is going straight to the press.

Agreed there. I already said Epic should be arguing that Apple didn't ban them instantly.

 

[Realityck]

If Epic was really looking out for the consumer, then they wouldn't make a game that's rated 12+ (with sound effects captured from real weapons) available for free to anyone to download, then make key features for progression paid-for. That's an awful way to do business.

So all those shoot them up games from the past we saw on stores racks that are now on digital have to go through this anti-violence court of approval? So you kid was playing in the past Duke Nukin, and you have to cover your ears when you hear, "come get some"? LOL

 

[borgein]

Someone needs to take Apple on with the 30 % tax. It needs to be someone with deep pockets and it would appear Epic fit that description. There will be a lot of support from developers who don't have the resources to fight this battle.

A fee and a tax is not the same thing. You are paying a 30% fee to cover:

Purchases
Transactions
Returns and refunds
Legal rights
Hosting fees
Marketing fees
Bandwith fees (you think downloads from hosting providers are free?)
Update/patch fees (Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo)
Access to a big customer database
Development tools
Tools that provide compatability with future OS and system updates, for MANY generations, unlike other platforms.

Shelf space in stores used to cost more. And if you wanted to have the prime spot, it cost FAR more.
And you are calling this a tax? Just shows how little you actually know. Some people just think everything should be handed to them for free. Those people need a serious reality check.

 

[Piggie]

Gaming won't stop. New app/game development will. So where will these teenagers go if google does the same thing?

As has been said many times over the past few days.
Google's easy anser is you can always side-load on your android phone so it's not locked down.

I'm sure Google would love to swallow up future iPhone kids mindshare is Apple keeps going down the path they currently are.
Legal issue's don't matter.
It's customers and future customers you want to keep happy.