Apple Threatens to Terminate Epic Games' Developer Accounts on August 28

[jgdeschamps]

I’m as big of a fan of Apple as anyone else here... but defending Apple on this is weird to me. You LIKE paying more for things as a consumer because of the high cut Apple takes because they can? Should Microsoft take 30% of every windows program, that you in turn pay for?

Not attacking you, but you do realize that when you get an iPhone or a Mac, they regularly cost more than the competition? This brand is not cheap from the get go and has been like that decades before the App Store due to the creative market demand for their hardware and software product solutions and the self-publishing movement the brand supported in the 80s.
In Mexico we have a saying that goes "You bought the whiskey and now you ran out of money to pay for the ice cubes?!"
And with this I'm just trying to point out that what many people here defend -which is the argument that big bad Apple takes too much away from the poor developer- and that eliminating or at least diminishing the current developer fees will help pass those savings to the final user are really not that coherent. The most expensive part of the Apple ecosystem is the hardware, not the software. Let me explain myself:
Most apps in the iOS store cost no more than 5 dollars, or have similar low cost IAP schemes. Apps that are more expensive than 5 dollars or 10 dollars are regularly found more in the Mac App Store, or are helper apps for the "grown up" Mac workflow. So, I just don't find validity in those arguments where you feel saving 1.50 bucks out of a 5 dollar app will make your 700 dollar iPhone experience feel more economical and worthwhile. There is no scenario out of all these shenanigans that will lower iPhone/iPad prices down...
On the Mac side, many of the big brands tried the Mac App Store scheme, didn't like paying 30% and got out of it. An example of this was AutoCAD LT for Mac. Autodesk didn't throw a fit and then tried to sue Apple. They just took it away from the Mac App Store and went the pay-by-the-month route using their own servers. But the Mac App Store is a different business model in the end.
So, to conclude: No... if Apple "loses" this, what we'll end up with will be a lot less and more expensive to produce and distribute iOS 3rd party apps. More expensive to produce, the more it costs to the final client. A business the size of Apple won't give in just because the government or a competing company wants them to.
And I just don't see a case where the government will regulate App Store prices because they are not stocks, commodities or basic necessity goods. Most of them are intangible gimmicks for you to spend small, discrete amounts of money. And all companies are trying to get that cashflow towards their bank accounts.
Many persons posting around the forums yearn for "the fall" of the iOS App Store 'cause they hate the brand and it's the latest fad of Apple dissent... or because they have no idea of what is involved in creating and distributing anything, really.

 

[wood1208]

In line with not liking to pay agreed upon platform fee; I(my business) can ask VISA and MC network to reduce it's 2%+ transactions fee they charge to it's merchants.

 

[cmaier]

See Apple terminates Epic Games iOS/Mac developer accounts in latest salvo - millenium.us.org 8/17/20



Are the consumers just cattle fodder to Apple now? Your expressing this in the terms that EPIC is totally responsible for Apple pulling the plug on accessing their paid for games. Isn't that pretty harsh on consumers? They should have halted sales not halted access, but now they taken it further than they should.

So apple should just leave the app running so that users who already download it can buy via epic and screw apple out of the money that it’s entitled to by contract? What kind of precedent does that set?

 

[nickgovier]

.

 

[Realityck]

The govt will enforce rules for Apple like they did w/ MS back then. If they don't comply, they simply have to pay a fee that's all. MS paid like 1M dollar a day for not removing windows explorer browser from their OS. If the govt get mad enough, they'll do something more drastic.

Is this like they make the Apple App Store be hidden like IE.

 

[dlondon]

What many of the developers are arguing is that 15/30% cut is too high. Some are also arguing about access to APIs which sometimes disadvantages developers and favours Apple's services. I don't think developers necessarily want to open up the Apple ecosystem, more likely using this as a threat because that is one solution to prevent monopolistic behaviour with fees.

Apple's cut might not seem high but it's a flat rate whether you see one item or 10 million. Does it cost Apple that much to check one app that sells millions to one that sells one? It's clear that this subsidises smaller developers but it also maximises Apple's profits beyond what may be deemed reasonable.

The monopoly (in Europe at least) wouldn't be based on how much of the overall market a company controls in device percentage terms, it would also look at how much value they control of the overall market and whether a company distorts competition through unfair practices. Apple's market share might be less than 40%, but iOS supposedly generates more income than their market share. Also, courts might look at other factors such as how often a user switches mobile OS as this might show that users are less likely to switch platforms which could mean Apple has more control over potential developers and option to pay via third party (which companies like Netflix already do, they're just not allowed to promote this in their app).

I don't know whether Apple will win or lose this case, but the spotlight is on Apple on both sides of the Atlantic. I think that Apple can argue the security of their ecosystem in principle, but Europe may argue for lower or capped fees, fairer access to APIs etc.

 

[russell_314]

Hopefully the government doesn’t force Apple to kill the App Store. That’s pretty much what makes the iPhone an iPhone. By doing that they would basically give Google a monopoly on phones.

 

[cmaier]

This is the real issue here. Apple just willingly chose to treat thousands of UE developers (such as myself) as collateral damage in their legal fight to continue charging 20-25% more than payment processing costs for IAP and maintain their precious services revenue.



Such a callous response when people's livelihoods are on the line.

Including people who work at apple.

If you get in bed with someone who knowingly breaks the rules and violates the contracts, you get what you have coming.

 

[Naaaaak]

When Steve Jobs posted ”Thoughts on Flash”, Apple had what, 10% marketshare?

They outlined technical reasons why they would not support it, gave everyone a heads up, and you could still get Flash-support on other devices if you cared.

Now with 40%(?) duopoly marketshare, Apple put a 2-week kill-switch on a technically-sound dependency used by tens of thousands of companies by potentially cutting off the company that makes it.

If you work on a longer-term commercial project that has a dependency on Epic tooling, this means you might not be able to ship your product on Apple devices. You now have to consider sales projections of $0 on Apple devices or incur an engineering and time cost porting away from Unreal. This kind of action triggers insurance contracts at large companies. You just got hit by a Phil Schiller drive by.

Imagine in the 80s if AT&T cut off your phone service because they didn’t like what someone you talked to told them. Apple is the literal phone company of modern times, but even worse than AT&T was for the consumer.

Break up Apple, rip the App Store from them, fine them $50 billion, cap the new App Store company 30% fees to 10% (like a utility), get regulators living in the Developer Services division, order iOS to allow sideloading, allow buying direct from developer and allow alternative stores just like on Desktop. Then do the same to Google.

 

[Stella]

Epic will still be able to distribute the Mac OS version outside of the App Store, on Steam or Epic store, should Apple revoke their Developer Account.

 

[jonblatho]

Last I checked, 40% isn't a majority.

@Michaelgtrusa and @TiggrToo, if I might ask, why the disagree and haha reacts to this post, respectively? Is a 40% stake considered a majority stake by any business anywhere? (A majority is half plus one.)

 

[BaltimoreMediaBlog]

Apple will win the battle, but lose the war and as, except for the fanboys, the tide is turning against Apple just like it did with Microsoft.

 

[Madmic23]

This is a pretty significant move by Apple, and I think it shows that they are deadly serious about people not violating the terms of the store. At first, I thought Epic had a valid point. I still don’t think that Apple deserves a cut of in-app purchases that aren’t stored on their servers. It feels like WalMart taking a cut off any purchase I make on an iPad just because I bought the iPad at WalMart.

However, the terms of service are clear, and developers need to follow those rules. When Google also kicked Fortnite off of Google Play, I think that really helps Apple’s case because it shows it’s not just Apple, Epic is trying to violate the rules on multiple platforms.

This is going to be an interesting battle to watch, but I don’t see it going in Epics favour in the end.

 

[jonblatho]

Epic will still be able to distribute the Mac OS version outside of the App Store, on Steam or Epic store, should Apple revoke their Developer Account.

They wouldn't be able to sign their code, though. It'd still work, but only after a warning and the right click-Open workaround to get around Gatekeeper saying the app is from an unidentified developer.

 

[MvdM]

I think the optics on this, for Apple, aren't going to look good, especially with government officials now saying Apple is anti-competitive.

Well, if Apple sends them to the competition, what's wrong with that? If Apple started asking 2% instead of 30% it would be unfair competition.

 

[RickDEGH]

That’s my birthday; do it, Apple!!! 🤩

 

[Dremmel]

@Michaelgtrusa and @TiggrToo, if I might ask, why the disagree and haha reacts to this post, respectively? Is a 40% stake considered a majority stake by any business anywhere? (A majority is half plus one.)

You're assuming only two share holders

 

[matteolesinigo]

I think that Epic and other companies are not very interested in the 30% cut from Apple, usually iOS users are more keen to buy services via the AppStore or IAP as they trust the platform and am pretty sure that developers could be able to have high margins even selling at a slightly higher price than on other platforms.

I am also convinced that for most developers the actual cost of distributing their software from their own services, keeping it up to date, handling payment processing and refunds would not be significantly different than the 30% cut Apple is taking.

What really is at stake here is personal user data and financial information. Apple has limited more and more the possibility for developers to access user data and acting as intermediary acts as a gatekeeper of user information.

The idea of letting the user buy in apps through a different payment platform or directly installing apps on the device would require registration and the companies could get our data. I think personal data is the real gold behind the whole story.

 

[jonblatho]

You're assuming only two share holders

No, I'm not.

 

[dlondon]

In line with not liking to pay agreed upon platform fee; I(my business) can ask VISA and MC network to reduce it's 2%+ transactions fee they charge to it's merchants.

Not exactly a fair comparison. It would be fairer to say that the only way you could reach certain customers is to sign up with a particular payment platform, and that platform took 30% of your transactions. Your choice is to pay that fee or lose access to those customers.

Europe took the view that Visa and MasterCard had too much control and reduced their handling fees because their costs couldn't be justified. Now that the App store is established, Europe might take a different view on their fees (regardless of whether the developers and ultimately customers are happy for Apple to take these fees.

 

[lazyrighteye]

So Epic Games blatantly, and very publicly, violated their contract in a coordinated attempt to force Apple to change their policies? I'm no policy change expert, but this doesn't tactic seems the most effective approach.

Reminds me of my son knowingly violating our screen time policy in an effort to garner more screen time. Umm...

 

[topdrawer]

They wouldn't be able to sign their code, though. It'd still work, but only after a warning and the right click-Open workaround to get around Gatekeeper saying the app is from an unidentified developer.

not if it is launched through steam.

 

[jicon]

Smooth marketing by Epic. I'll presume this 'issue' goes away in the next few weeks, meanwhile Epic has everyone discussing their games for a month.

 

[AlifTheUnseen]

Finally! I am no fanboy of Epic... but Apple has become much too powerful - at that stage, it needs a behemoth to fight a behemoth. There is a huge number of devs leaving the platform (remember Ambiance? I dearly miss this app) or openly express their dislike of Apple's rules (just recently Protonmail, among many others). But small devs don't dare to criticize Apple for fear of retaliation. The App Store has so many issues and is broken in so many dimensions it's hurting. Yet Apple collects 30% of all sales, indefinitely. I hope Epic wins this one, for all mankind, but I am in doubt... F or something quite different, how much of Apple's profit goes back to society by taxes? With Apple's power, it may dictates countries what amount of taxes Apple is willing to pay. That is not worthy of liberal democratic systems (equality before the law).

 

[1applerules1]

epic games flexed when they wanted to bypass apples cut.
Apple flexed back by removing fortnite.
Epic games flexed harder by suing apple.
Apple flexed hardest by deleting their account.