Apple to Adopt Carbon Fiber for Lighter MacBook Air?

[Sly]

Sony has already done carbon in 2003.
X505 Extreme was 785g - that is getting close to half of MBA.

http://www.vaio.sony.co.jp/Products/PCG-X505/lineup.html#2

Only released in Japan and didn't do so well may due to lack of ergonomics (keyboard position, feel).

Also the carbon was real (front / back covers) and costed a fortune from memory.

Interesting Sony have used unidirectional CF here which gives a nice surface finish but has strength in only on direction - in line with the fibers and none in any other direction. So what they have done is used the carbon as finishing panel for carbon looks over a plastic chassis for strength, the fibers look to run across the notebook at a 45deg angle, probably in two layers of opposing direction.

 

[Tosser]

If Apple go down this route at all, and a seriously doubt they will, this is the sort of garbage I expect on a Ferrari branded laptop from a company like Acer, it will not be real carbon fiber used. Here's why:

1. It costs far too much to produce items out of proper pre-impregnated CF, not just the material but the manufacturing costs.

2. What is the point; items engineered in CF are normally desigend to be very stong in one load direction only (normally tension), how is this needed in a laptop! The requirements for a laptop case are stiffness and impact resistance, both things real CF are useless at. To make a CF panel stiff designers use a core structure with two skins $$$$$$$ and it is still brittle.

3. because of the nature of the rovings in bidirectional CF (the type you traditionally think of as CF) getting a good finish on it is nigh on impossible even after spraying, which would not be acceptable to Apple.

4. Carbon fiber with its associated resin (normally epoxy) is about as bad for the environment as a material can be. And because it is not in any way recyclable any waste from production goes in the bin more - $$$$.


If Apple go down this route, the panel will be some form of carbon lookalike material which is actually what most people think of as carbon fiber anyway. There are plenty of lookalike plastics which can be vacuum formed easily and have the properties required.

Also, lets get another thing straight here a given volume of epoxy infused carbon fiber is not significantly lighter than say polyester as the resin is actually quite heavy (though well engineered laminates use the minimum resin). What it does have is a super strength to weight ratio under certain loads which means less material can be used for a given strength requirement.

To sum up Carbon Fiber - NO. Carbon Fiber lookalike - possibly

1) you don't need pre-impregnated carbon fiber. It doesn't have to be pre-impregnated.

2) That's not entirely correct. A carbon mast is very strong in any direction, a carbon hull likewise, as is carbon frames used for all sorts of things. It's a matter of how you lay the sheets, where you reenforce the shape, and so on. In other words, it's a matter of doing a proper engineering job. This won't happen with Apple, though, but at least in theori you can make some extreme (and lightweight) structures of carbon fibre, much stronger, yet ligther than, say, plastics, aluminium, glass fibre or what have you.
There are other ways of making CF rigid than using a core. In fact, when building a hull, even with a core, you use several layers of CF strategically to produce the strength and properties you want in the places you want those properties.

3) That's not correct. It's matter of doing it properly. First saturating the individual sheets, and then put the final coatings of epoxy (or whatever you use) on top of it. In this sense, there's very little difference working with CF and working with glass fibre.

4) You're absolutely correct. And if not painted, or filled with UV-filters, the epoxy will yellow with time.

Edit:
Oh, I forgot to mention, that it's not true that CF with epoxy is no lighter than polyester (which is most often used with glass fibre). Manufactured to be light and with a vacuum (sucking out the superfluous epoxy), epoxy-cf is much lighter than an equal strength polyester (and perhaps even glassfibre, ugh!) shell – be it as a hull, mast, frame, plate or whatever.

 

[Sly]

1) you don't need pre-impregnated carbon fiber. It doesn't have to be pre-impregnated.

2) That's not entirely correct. A carbon mast is very strong in any direction, a carbon hull likewise, as is carbon frames used for all sorts of things. It's a matter of how you lay the sheets, where you reenforce the shape, and so on. In other words, it's a matter of doing a proper engineering job. This won't happen with Apple, though, but at least in theori you can make some extreme (and lightweight) structures of carbon fibre, much stronger, yet ligther than, say, plastics, aluminium, glass fibre or what have you.
There are other ways of making CF rigid than using a core. In fact, when building a hull, even with a core, you use several layers of CF strategically to produce the strength and properties you want in the places you want those properties.

3) That's not correct. It's matter of doing it properly. First saturating the individual sheets, and then put the final coatings of epoxy (or whatever you use) on top of it. In this sense, there's very little difference working with CF and working with glass fibre.

4) You're absolutely correct. And if not painted, or filled with UV-filters, the epoxy will yellow with time.

Edit:
Oh, I forgot to mention, that it's not true that CF with epoxy is no lighter than polyester (which is most often used with glass fibre). Manufactured to be light and with a vacuum (sucking out the superfluous epoxy), epoxy-cf is much lighter than an equal strength polyester (and perhaps even glassfibre, ugh!) shell – be it as a hull, mast, frame, plate or whatever.

What you say is basically true, but: 1) Pre-peg is the only real way to get the most out of CF, but as you say not essential and very expensive, it is however also easier to handle, particularly with unidirectional fibers. 2 Carbon masts are strong because the filaments are wound around a former in many directions + a tube is an inherently strong structure anyway (have you ever been on a boat when one of these blow, I have nasty!) 3) True, but we sill used to struggle getting a really good finish with woven carbon mats, they always show through. GRP laminates have the luxury of a layer of CSM behind the gel to hide the rovings not so Carbon laminates.

I said not 'significantly lighter for a given volume', but yes CF is much lighter than the equivalent strength ployester/glass laminate would be.

I think we may be verging on 'offtopic here'!

 

[iGary]

CF is too expensive. Not happening.

 

[Tosser]

What you say is basically true, but: 1) Pre-peg is the only real way to get the most out of CF, but as you say not essential and very expensive, it is however also easier to handle, particularly with unidirectional fibers.

You're forgetting that this will not be a custom job. The machinery needed to pre-preg cf sheets would be in use the place where they made the Cf-shells. This means they wouldn't be buying the pre-preg, but rather would "pre-preg" them themselves, if that makes sense.

2 Carbon masts are strong because the filaments are wound around a former in many directions + a tube is an inherently strong structure anyway (have you ever been on a boat when one of these blow, I have nasty!)

Yes, race boats tends to go the limit in weight savings, gambling that it will hold out for a given race. That doesn't mean that one cannot make it strong it enough. It simply means they used just a tad too little material. Take a look at the loss of all the pivoting swing keels. There is nothing wrong with the technology, it's simply a matter of them trying to go to the very limit of it. If they built it to last, they would loose. They built it to last "just long enough".

People have been sailing around with CF-masts properly built on cruising vessels for a long time. But they were built to be strong. Non-stayed masts are almost exclusively made from CF.

3) True, but we sill used to struggle getting a really good finish with woven carbon mats, they always show through. GRP laminates have the luxury of a layer of CSM behind the gel to hide the rovings not so Carbon laminates.

I assume you mean woven sheets, not roving mats (quite the difference, to my knowledge – although I'm not a native english speaker, so there …).
When I built my boats I strip-planked them, added epoxy, laid down the sheets, added epoxy, laid down another and so on, ending with a final layer that certainly didn't show the "print". All three of my self built boats have been finished clear so the wood showed through, and on none could you see the print. They are all smooth as a baby's bottom.

I said not 'significantly lighter for a given volume', but yes CF is much lighter than the equivalent strength ployester/glass laminate would be.

Yup.

I think we may be verging on 'offtopic here'!

Ha ha, you think?

 

[SactoGuy18]

While it sounds like a good idea, the high cost of producing carbon fiber parts in the first place may mitigate against doing it.

Remember, you just can't "stamp out" carbon fiber parts like you can with aluminum parts--that's why carbon fiber is rarely used even in the automotive industry. A much better solution is use the new techniques now coming into production to dramatically reduce the cost of titanium alloy parts, which means Apple could produce a stronger, lighter MacBook Air with titanium alloy body shell that will offer almost the same weight benefit as carbon fiber.

 

[sangosimo]

voodoo did it with the envy. the carbon fiber weave may not look to hot with mac styling though.

 

[RHDJapan]

Carbon fiber costs way more than aluminum (automotive grade atleast) and will drive the prices even higher on the notebooks i think. Carbon fiber is also extremely hard to get on the market due to airlines buying it all up here in Japan. Not sure this would be a good move.

 

[137489]

what? lol

i have dealt with carbon fiber alot and yea, a haz mat suit it a component breaks? give me a break

with that said, i have machined carbon fiber and the dust it generates is really fine and will itch the heck out of you if it gets on the skin for a day or so

but as far as a carbon spar breaking and needing a hazmat team to deal with it, thats not true. all it does is snap and guess what, the carbon fiber failed but it is still in the resin

also, you can handle carbon fiber without any thing protective at all. how do you think people lay it up and such? all carbon fiber comes in is in sleeves, rolls, or sheets. in fact i have some in my room right now. such a cool material

or maybe you are right and im gonna have cancer from it in a couple years

Before we get into an arguement on how safe it is, has it been proven? I mean look at the following:

1. Lead, used for years in paint -banned due to finding out decades later that inhaling (when it flakes), or touching lead is bad for you; yet it can still be used in fine crystal and electronics - just must have a warning sticker.

2. Benzene - used for years as a cleaner and also in a number of products, now banned.

3. DDT - Used for years/decades as an insecticide now banned in the USA (but not banned in other countries and we still import human and pet food from them).

4. Mercury - used for decades as filling for teeth and in thermometers. Now banned.

5. Florocarbons - used for years in Aerosols, now banned and the new products just do not work as well.

6. Landscapers - those who fail to wear dust masks when mowing now have lung problems.

7. Tobacco products - well, it is not the tobacco but all the other chemicals put into making the filters, papers, pouches, sprays to keep it somewhat fresh/retard molding, etc.

Why do you think those engineers where Goggles, white jacket, gloves, etc?

1. To protect the product from the oil residue of your fingers.
2. to protect the person from all the chemicals used.

I am not a hippie, vegan, or nut case -but anything that is not all-natural will have chemicals that when they break down release toxic gases, etc.

 

[Shasterball]

How about just making the damn thing useful?

 

[Sly]

While it sounds like a good idea, the high cost of producing carbon fiber parts in the first place may mitigate against doing it.

Remember, you just can't "stamp out" carbon fiber parts like you can with aluminum parts--that's why carbon fiber is rarely used even in the automotive industry. A much better solution is use the new techniques now coming into production to dramatically reduce the cost of titanium alloy parts, which means Apple could produce a stronger, lighter MacBook Air with titanium alloy body shell that will offer almost the same weight benefit as carbon fiber.

An Apple laptop with a Titanium shell, hmm now where have I heard of that before.

 

[frankzeg]

there's carbon and there's carbon

I think it highly unlikely Apple will use traditional graphite fiber/epoxy composite materials for a laptop. The material, in final finished form, is no stronger than Al alloy - just a wee bit lighter- .062 vs .098 lbm/in^3. It is only so strong as the layups permit and it is a total bear for working with fasteners, must receive external coatings to stabilize edges and is quite brittle in typical commercial applications.

What they may be looking at is the use of pyrolytic carbon which is a totally different material with an amazingly high thermal conductivity- in one direction that is. Not to make a case out of but to improve thermal conditions in the machine. Though the new aluminum case seems to work very well this way.

By the way, the "unibody" case is what is called integral machining in the aerospace industry and has been around for most of century. It is great for reducing parts count and can reduce mass though not always. There are fundamental limits on how thin you can machine a material and this is often above the gage of sheet metal parts- like they more typically use in laptops. What is great is that they have gotten the multi-stage machining process efficient enough for a commercial product like a laptop- that doesn't just happen - you have to design and optimize for it to happen. Otherwise it can eat you alive cost wise.

The goal is of course to have a single part that is "net" (meaning the final dimensions and ready for the next assembly without intermediate processing like deburring, polishing, coating etc) that is also easy to make- ie a single process that yields an aesthetic end product and you can turn them out like jellybeans. And also recycle painlessly. There is no known process that achieves this yet. Castings, injection molding, machining all have strengths and weaknesses. One of the big deals is final finish which is not a functional thing but people like nice surfaces - it sells the product.

Aside from the RF issues the CNC machined approach is probably pretty close to optimal given Apple's high end cost point. It is the default for design in most high-end industrial products as well. They can of course tune up the metal alloy to shed a bit of density- but it will come at a cost and unless they are willing to transition to magnesium (corrosion prone, but light, stiff and highly damped) or beryllium (amazing properties but sadly very toxic) the savings is perhaps 3%- like with Aluminum-Lithium alloys. And those have weird issues with aesthetics due to the metallurgy of the material- you can get dark banding right in the material.

I know that I LOVE my new MBP- superior to my old G4 powerbook and Tibook. It makes other laptops look downright ugly and the screen and metal finishes are excellent. Screen hinge resistance, latch, feet and battery design are steps ahead of the competition. Trackpad function needs work though. Grrrr.

z

 

[thejadedmonkey]

How does that work? Wasn't Apple just bragging about the unibody aspect of it all, like a few weeks ago?

 

[tcphoto]

Why lighter? Are the Apple notebooks crushing the elderly customers laps? Next thing you know, the display will be heavier then the base and we can't open it up past 90 degrees.

 

[lftrghtparadigm]

Unless carbon fiber can reduce the weight by 40% or more, I'd say its waste of R&D and ultimately yet another premium we'll have to pay. (Rather, the price will stay the same as the cost of the newer internal components go down).

 

[r0k]

I could see Apple doing a Carbon fiber tablet machine someday but it would seem like foolishness to switch manufacturing technology so quickly after the big splash they just made with aluminum. I can only think of a few reasons to consider carbon fiber for the MBA. If the carbon fiber was cheaper than the aluminum or if it were significantly lighter, not just 10% lighter, and yet strong enough to do both the base and the lid.

 

[twoodcc]

i don't think the weight is a big deal to me, but i guess it might be to some people. i guess they want to be able to say that it's the lightest notebook as well as the thinest?

 

[morespce54]

seriously, I want a MacBook Air made out of solid iron. It was the metal that conquered the ancient world! sure, it will weigh 23 pounds, but I'll never worry about dropping it.

also, firewire.

Well, actually, you *might* worry about dropping it... on your feet!

 

[Eric S.]

Pretty soon you're going to have to stack something on top of the MBA to keep it from floating away.

 

[Bubba Satori]

Lighter ? Are these for three year olds who can't lift four pounds ?

 

[ChrisA]

Apple does NOT build aiplanes or boats

What you say is basically true, but: 1) Pre-peg is the only real way to get the most out of CF, but as you say not essential and very expensive,

Apple is not building boats or airplanes. We are talking here only about the little covers the go over things like the battery compartment. Would they even use epoxy matrix? Are they going to use woven cloth? Maybe it is chopped fiber. That's the normal material for this kind of part, they mix chopped fiber with some kind of plastic then force it into a die. It's very cheap and quick to make.

Cheaper than Aluminum? If they are milling the Al from billets then "hell yes".

I suspect the carbon fiber parts will be chopped fiber with an Aluminium plated coating so as to match the look of the rest of the notebook.

 

[sherwinzadeh]

My bet is that the carbon-fiber will be used to replace the plastic backing on the iPhone instead of the Air.

Aluminum is now such an integral part of Apple's laptop line that I doubt they'll change that.

 

[Tosser]

My bet is that the carbon-fiber will be used to replace the plastic backing on the iPhone instead of the Air.

My bet is that it won't. It's far more expensive than plastics, and because it will shield the radio (WiFi), you will then have to have a two-piece thingy.

My bet is that they will not be using carbon fibre for any panel or case for any of their products for the foreseeable future. Especially considering how extremely the oil prices fluctuate.

 

[chopper dave]

this is bollocks
have a look at good quality aluminum bike frames, and compare weight to the carbon fibre frames - barely any difference in a product many times bigger than a MBA.

switching to carbon fibre will make squat difference to weight.
and heat dissipation would be *****

Bike frames are not a good comparison, because they are NOT designed to maximize stiffness like computers are. A perfectly stiff frame will rattle the rider's bones to powder.
CF is preferred over Al not just because of its better strength, but because it simply has better structural properties all around, including better damping, higher failure strain (can "flex" without breaking), greater fatigue life, and more flexibility in design.
I can't comment as to why their weights are nearly the same, a quick check online yielded about a 15% weight advantage for CF.



What people are saying is true- CF is NOT green, and any recycling efforts are purely research. CF itself is recyclable, but the epoxy matrix that bonds the fibers together is not.

Much of the extra cost in making a small CF part like a computer back comes from the increased labor, as each part must be laid-up by hand and have a hand-prepped mold. Al parts can be largely stamped and machined without any human interaction.

The $40-$60 per sq yard estimates some have given are for 5 oz prepreg weave, I believe- something you would build an airplane out of. There is no way Apple would use something that thick, and they would certainly have volume discounts that would bring the cost way down. Also, the MBA has a surface area of only 1/9 of a square yard. As someone also said, they would probably only use one thin layer of (expensive) weave, or if they are painting the outside, only chopped fibers. I'd estimate the total raw material cost as $10 or less. Of course, the cost for 1/2 lb of Al is only about $1 so you are still talking an order of magnitude difference in cost.

CF is less conductive (electrically and thermally) than Al but is by no means an insulator. You can expect it to block radio signals, cause shorts, and transmit heat just like a metal part, just not quite as much.

In the end, I think it is an cool (though not by any means new) idea but the environmental concerns and increased manufacturing cost is pretty high, and this sort of thing would probably need to gain more than just .22 lbs to be justified.

 

[alphaod]

I like the look of carbon fiber; it would definitely make the MacBook Air more worthwhile to buy oppose to the MacBook.

However I can't imagine how expensive the computer would have to be to make the profit margins worthwhile; I wouldn't be surprised if the computer was glued together.

there's been a real one out there, read my reply, #113

Good job taking arn's credit.