Apple to Collect 27% Commission on Third-Party App Payment Systems in the Netherlands

[Ethosik]

My parents iPhone has NO apps from the App Store AT ALL. They just need a camera, texting and phone capabilities. They don't even browse Safari on their phone, they have computers for that. Therefore Apps are not a NECESSITY.

People just love to throw those words out that smartphones are necessity like breathing and food/water. Its not. My grandparents have Jitterbug flip phones and get by just fine.

 

[SpotOnT]

My answer.

1. Don't use apps/services that use third party payment systems. Having my credit card number floating around in more places on the internet does not seem like good OPSEC.
2. Assuming Apple will be forced to offer side loading apps, don't side load apps from third party sources. Not unless you like having your device compromised and personal information stolen.

Sure, Apple isn't perfect, but using third party payments and apps stores is akin to the Wild West. Android is a prime example. https://www.androidheadlines.com/2016/01/third-party-app-stores-blamed-for-malware-infections.html

If you don't like Apple's closed ecosystem, you are free to switch to Android. I think governments time would be better spent on solving corruption, embezzlement, drugs, and providing social services to its citizens. Unless of course government officials are the ones committing crimes and they are just using this as a way to deflect attention away from the real problem.

And what to do when none of the big companies even put their app on The App Store?

If side loading is legally forced, why would Amazon, Microsoft et al ever add thwir app to The App Store?

PS. If Apple is required to allow side loading apps, will Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft etc be required to allow gamers to side load games and bypass any licensing fees?

 

[gsurf123]

3% is about the cost to process credit cards, which is why Apple reduced the commission by 3%.

That's a round number. A company the size of Apple pays nothing near this probably in the 1.5% range. My lowly business pays on average around 1.75%, but we do not take American Express, which can push 4%. Now if you go with Stripe or other similar services you are locked in at 2.75% unless you have a super large number of transactions. The 2.75% deal is frictionless to setup with not much more than a tax id required if I remember correctly. If you can take some friction go to a bank or 3rd party processor to get the rate down. Of course banks are professional thieves, but plenty of low cost 3rd party processors are out there.

Banks will kill you so you have to go to a 3rd party processor who is not near as greedy.

 

[temende]

I am so glad I'm not an iOS developer.

 

[I7guy]

Just more evidence of how critical it is to force Apple to open up iOS to third party stores and side loading and truly make for a competitive marketplace for Apps on iOS

They are conducting themselves like mob bosses

No it’s not more evidence. Let’s first practice these “regulations” on Epic and see how well they work out.

 

[draugminaion]

What IP? LOL The ones they created with monopoly in mind?
E.g. Metal, why didn't they use Vulkan or continue improving OpenGL/CL.
All was done only for one purpose, exploiting the market through anticompetitive behavior.

OpenGL is old junk that needs to be put out of its misery.
Apple wants to be in control of its own destiny, they are designing their own GPUs, and need their own architecture because they want a competitive advantage when AR gets real.
Sometimes it is useful to join a committee together with your competitors and slowly make plans together.
Apple figures this is not one of those times.

 

[the future]

I don‘t understand how anyone is surprised by this and how developers are „outraged“. What did they think how big the part for payment processing was wrt the overall fee? 3% seems quite right for that.

Developers should be thanking Apple for never raising their cut.

Absolutely. I remember when the App Store started taking off, it was literally a gold rush. So many potential customers, so easily reached, for so low a fee. After all these years, developers forgot how hard (and/or costly) selling software used to be (or are too young to remember), take the App Store(s) for granted and get greedy.

That Apple is fighting so hard against any changes to IAP says to me they don’t really have any ideas around other ways to grow services revenues.

Or maybe Apple just genuinely believe they are entitled to these fees. Which they are.

 

[Ethosik]

And what to do when none of the big companies even put their app on The App Store?

If side loading is legally forced, why would Amazon, Microsoft et al ever add thwir app to The App Store?

PS. If Apple is required to allow side loading apps, will Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft etc be required to allow gamers to side load games and bypass any licensing fees?

Yep agreed! This is where the conversation just goes nowhere. A LOT of the arguments come into the "well just don't side load, it won't affect you"....yet when you point out what you just did, they respond with "well just don't use those apps!"

Uh so you are saying it DOES affect me then! I find these conversations so frustrating. And you are advocating for forcing me to have a lesser iPhone experience by not wanting to side load?!

 

[gsurf123]

Of course I do not believe there is anyway to compile a iOS app other than using the developer tools. I know there are 3rd party development tools that allow for Multiplatform deployment, but they still have to use the Apple compiler to complete the mission. You'd really have to motivated to develop a completely independent set of tools as Apple could make operating system changes with each update that render apps generated with the 3rd party development tools non-functional. Could be as easy as removing API calls from all except App Store apps. This whole effort to get something for free is a dead end road.

 

[alex2792]

My parents iPhone has NO apps from the App Store AT ALL. They just need a camera, texting and phone capabilities. They don't even browse Safari on their phone, they have computers for that. Therefore Apps are not a NECESSITY.

People just love to throw those words out that smartphones are necessity like breathing and food/water. Its not. My grandparents have Jitterbug flip phones and get by just fine.

Your parents are probably still using paper checks to pay at the grocery store as well. The vast majority of the population (especially those of working age) pretty much need a smartphone and when 2 companies essentially control all of the apps, which are essential to the entire smartphone experience, then we have a problem. Look I get it, you love Apple and have a life sized Steve Jobs poster in every room of your house, but Apple is a for profit enterprise, they’re NOT your friend.

 

[Maximara]

Quick question... does the Netherland's 21% VAT affect this in any way? Good or bad?

I'm not familiar with VAT.

VAT is similar to sales tax except "It is levied on the price of a product or service at each stage of production, distribution, or sale to the end consumer". If you look at Apple's EU stores the prices will state that VAT is included in the price but the price can vary for areas where VAT differs from the national norm.

 

[alex2792]

And what to do when none of the big companies even put their app on The App Store?

If side loading is legally forced, why would Amazon, Microsoft et al ever add thwir app to The App Store?

PS. If Apple is required to allow side loading apps, will Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft etc be required to allow gamers to side load games and bypass any licensing fees?

Then Apple will have to *gasp* compete for their business and will be forced modify their BS policies to remain relevant. This is what’s commonly referred to as a “marketplace “.

 

[Ethosik]

Your parents are probably still using paper checks to pay at the grocery store as well. The vast majority of the population (especially those of working age) pretty much need a smartphone and when 2 companies essentially control all of the apps, which are essential to the entire smartphone experience, then we have a problem. Look I get it, you love Apple and have a life sized Steve Jobs poster in every room of your house, but Apple is a for profit enterprise, they’re NOT your friend.

They do actually, every bill is still paper. Doesn't make my point any different that apps are not a NECESSITY.

 

[WiseAJ]

All these developers literally reacting like the shocked Pikachu meme is hilarious. Who didn't see this coming? Who seriously thought apple would charge a significantly less commission for third party payment transactions?

 

[Ethosik]

Then Apple will have to *gasp* compete for their business and will be forced modify their BS policies to remain relevant. This is what’s commonly referred to as a “marketplace “.

You can't compete if there are exclusivity contracts. What is the most critical way Xbox and Playstation compete? By Exclusive games! God of War Ragnarok on PS5/4 is a way for Sony to compete with Microsoft. There isn't really anything Microsoft can do here. So they compete the same way, having their own exclusives like Halo.

 

[Michael Scrip]

And what to do when none of the big companies even put their app on The App Store?

If sideloading is legally forced, why would Amazon, Microsoft et al ever add their app to The App Store?

Epic tried to leave the Google Play Store and rely solely on sideloading. It didn't work.

Even though they had the most popular game in the world at the time... not enough people would do it. So they came crawling back to the Google Play Store.

People like the marketplace aspect of an app store. Even with its faults... it's still a wonderful way to distribute apps.

PS. If Apple is required to allow sideloading apps, will Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft etc be required to allow gamers to side load games and bypass any licensing fees?

That should be fun to watch...

 

[alex2792]

You can't compete if there are exclusivity contracts. What is the most critical way Xbox and Playstation compete? By Exclusive games! God of War Ragnarok on PS5/4 is a way for Sony to compete with Microsoft. There isn't really anything Microsoft can do here. So they compete the same way, having their own exclusives like Halo.

Well then Apple can buy themselves some exclusive apps, they’re a trillion dollar company so they’ll have to figure something out.

 

[alex2792]

They do actually, every bill is still paper. Doesn't make my point any different that apps are not a NECESSITY.

Well, the vast majority of smartphone users would beg to disagree so there’s that.

 

[bookofxero]

The apple insider version of this reveals two things that are a real sting in the trail:

Apple further explains that a condition of using alternative payment systems s that developers will be required to report sales — and that Apple has audit rights.

"Failure to pay Apple's commission could result in the offset of proceeds owed to you in other markets," continues Apple, "removal of your app from the App Store or removal from the Apple Developer program."

So this basically results in what I predicted both here and there - it will make the developer's life more difficult.

Funny thing. Yahtzee just dumped on the entire mobile game market (Odds are he uses Android):

"Today, there’s only a few games I play on my phone. Solitaire, crosswords, Picross-style puzzles. Mainly because each round of such games usually takes a while so I don’t get constantly deluged with ads. Most of the games I try on a whim because the ads made them look sorta fun are based around very short levels so that ads can be plugged in at the start and end of each one. Levels usually of some mindless but viscerally satisfying task like sorting coloured balls. And all the ads that bookend them seem to be for an infinite number of games with slight variations of the same thing and almost no theming to speak of."

The thing I always wonder is: how much of the similar-looking/cloned games are actually from "develop a mobile app and sell it" udemy and other courses? I can almost guarantee that pre-recorded "lessons" with the same requirements will result in a significant amount of overlap. Then factor in how many of those set the assignment to something like, "write and publish your own version of a Flappy Bird-type game".
Not saying it is every case, but I do not feel like the numbers have been fully vetted, either.

 

[the future]

The vast majority of the population (especially those of working age) pretty much need a smartphone.

Give us an example. Why do you personally NEED a smartphone? Not out of convenience, but sheer necessity. What is it that is fundamental to your job/existence that you absolutely couldn‘t do with, say, a dumb phone and a laptop?

Look I get it, you love Apple and have a life sized Steve Jobs poster in every room of your house

This ad hominem „Apple is a cult“ argument is so old and tired it really doesn‘t help the points you‘re trying to make.

Then Apple will have to *gasp* compete for their business

Apple is competing for their business by building and maintaining an ecosystem of devices and software that well over a billion customers live in.

 

[temende]

I remember when the App Store started taking off, it was literally a gold rush. So many potential customers, so easily reached, for so low a fee. After all these years, developers forgot how hard (and/or costly) selling software used to be (or are too young to remember), take the App Store(s) for granted and get greedy.

Selling software over the web today is pretty easy with tons of cheap CDNs like Cloudflare and payment processors like Stripe. It's also less costly than selling on the App Store: ~3% credit card fees vs 30% commission by Apple.

 

[I7guy]

Well, the vast majority of smartphone users would beg to disagree so there’s that.

Got some proof. I can own a cell phone that’s not a smartphone. But why buy a smartphone without the ability to install apps? It’s like buying a car without the ability to start it.

 

[bookofxero]

I highly doubt that the Netherland authorities will give Apple the right to audit a company in the Netherlands. This is going to get really funny ??????

And - oh my god! What if the payment happens using a website? What if the dating service has a website and a user can use both - website and App. Apples old mantra "Think different" changed to "We don't think at all" ..

Als Nelson would say - Haha

Auditing app sales data is not the same as a government audit, and being able to check against fraud (which is what intentionally underreporting to avoid paying commissions is) seems reasonable.

 

[Ethosik]

Well, the vast majority of smartphone users would beg to disagree so there’s that.

It can't be both ways. Either its a necessity or not. Someone's life style might make smoking cigarettes a necessity. We have individual needs. But when the argument is placed on a discussion forum for a debate, saying Apps are a necessity is purely 100% false.

You don't need mobile apps to live. You need air, water, food, shelter. THESE are necessities.

EDIT: I said foot instead of food!

 

[I7guy]

Selling software over the web today is pretty easy with tons of cheap CDNs like Cloudflare and payment processors like Stripe. It's also less costly than selling on the App Store: ~3% credit card fees vs 30% commission by Apple.

Sounds like a solid plan you put forth.