Apple to Pull 'iDOS 2' DOS Emulator From App Store

[chris1958]

Safari does the same. It downloads arbitrary Code (Javascript) from the internet and executes it. And the Javascript engine needs more rights than a DOS-emulator.

 

[God of Biscuits]

Those of us who ask for sideloading, this is another big reason why.

We should be able to run software on hardware we own even if it goes against Apple's moral code.

flippant “moral code” comment aside, you can’t have “optional” authorized sideloading. It’s one of the other.

 

[Wildkraut]

An other issue without the possibility to sideload, which will hit us all if the law don't come to rescue, is archiving and legacy.

I can open my drawer, and pull out a well-kept 30 year old GameBoy and play Robocop, SuperMario, Quirby, Paperboy, Double Draggon, Zelda, etc. Yeah, it still works, just like on day one! I still love to play these games, it's emotionally tied to a nice time i had in my youth. Even my kids played them, and they loved to play these games, too.

Good luck with modern locked-in ecosystems, all the stuff you currently buy will stop working one "near" day, it's one of Apple's strategies. It is already like this, you already can't re-download many Apps and Games which were once bought by you.

I hope you don't expect to be able to reactivate your Apple Device in 30 years from now, and redownload the Apps and Games that you bought once. In 30 years, probably less, your AppStore App will just crash or just show a 404 site not found error. Their device activation servers will be offline, rendering "your" *cough-cough* Apple Device useless.

Want to play Monument Valley 30 years from now and show it to your kids, good luck with that!
Archiving the Game History like with Mame on archive.org, forget it, this won't be possible, too.

Luckily I don't have any emotional connections to newer games, but this doesn't mean others don't.

 

[cupcakes2000]

An other issue without the possibility to sideload, which will hit us all if the law don't come to rescue, is archiving and legacy.

I can open my drawer, and pull out a well-kept 30 year old GameBoy and play Robocop, SuperMario, Quirby, Paperboy, Double Draggon, Zelda, etc. Yeah, it still works, just like on day one! I still love to play these games, it's emotionally tied to a nice time i had in my youth. Even my kids played them, and they loved to play these games, too.

Good luck with modern locked-in ecosystems, all the stuff you currently buy will stop working one "near" day, it's one of Apple's strategies. It is already like this, you already can't re-download many Apps and Games which were once bought by you.

I hope you don't expect to be able to reactivate your Apple Device in 30 years from now, and redownload the Apps and Games that you bought once. In 30 years, probably less, your AppStore App will just crash or just show a 404 site not found error. Their device activation servers will be offline, rendering "your" *cough-cough* Apple Device useless.

Want to play Monument Valley 30 years from now and show it to your kids, good luck with that!
Archiving the Game History like with Mame on archive.org, forget it, this won't be possible, too.

Luckily I don't have any emotional connections to newer games, but this doesn't mean others don't.

All the posturing and insistance that side loading is necessary for ‘power users’ amd its all about games 😂. I would rather ensure the security of my phone which I use for serious things like communication, banking, 2fa and passwords etc. It’s not a computer in the sense of a ‘free for all’ like a traditional desktop os, and I don’t want it to be. It needs to be secure amd locked down. I play the odd game and it’s cool I can, but that’s a secondary function.

By the way, using Nintendo as an example for an open system is hilarious. They are the original ‘walled garden’. Really all you’re talking about is the difference between owning a real life media, like a cartridge over a modern take on software, like a download. But that’s not even in the same ballpark as the conversation in this thread.

 

[I7guy]

Yeah sure f-droid is full of piracy.
Yeah Epic Store is full of piracy.
Yeah GOG Store is full of piracy.
Being able to have a Gecko powered original Firefox Browser is pure piracy.
Being able to to have a Browser to load up uBlock is piracy.
Being able to compile binary with alternative compilers is pure piracy.
Being able to load already bought DOS classic games (which is still have) is pure piracy.
Being able to run my own CDN and Store is pure piracy.
Being able to even run stuff like brew.sh would be pure piracy.
Being able to run a decent terminal is pure piracy.
Being able to emulate Windows Games over something like Wine or Steams fork aka. Proton is pure piracy.
Being able to have a native clearly more performant Game Streaming App for XBox Cloud, Stadia, Geforce NOW is also pure piracy.
etc.

I could keep typing down the list till by fingers starts bleeding with non-piracy related sideloading benefits.
Sideloading would clearly benefit all users.

Nothing like a strawman to prove a point.

 

[sracer]

If executing code is forbidden, how is Pythonista a thing?

There's no objective measure. It's all at Apple's sole discretion. Only Apple can directly answer that question.

EVERYGAME was an app in the appstore that was a boardgame construction kit for iOS that enabled people (non-programmers) to design boardgames using XML. It could import graphics for the board, cards, and pieces. It had randomizer functions (aka virtual dice). The user could export the game as a single zip and share it with others.

It had no artificial intelligence. Just game mechanics.

Apple removed EVERYGAME from the appstore because Apple claimed that it "executed code".

An absolutely brilliant app that most of iOS users never heard of.

 

[Wildkraut]

All the posturing and insistance that side loading is necessary for ‘power users’ amd its all about games 😂. I would rather ensure the security of my phone which I use for serious things like communication, banking, 2fa and passwords etc. It’s not a computer in the sense of a ‘free for all’ like a traditional desktop os, and I don’t want it to be. It needs to be secure amd locked down. I play the odd game and it’s cool I can, but that’s a secondary function.

By the way, using Nintendo as an example for an open system is hilarious. They are the original ‘walled garden’. Really all you’re talking about is the difference between owning a real life media, like a cartridge over a modern take on software, like a download. But that’s not even in the same ballpark as the conversation in this thread.

Let us try to go your fictive way.

Why do you think your locked-in iPhone (let's assume it's more secure that way) is so secure, if your computer holds the exact same stuff and probably even more sensitive data?
Your contacts, phone history, cloud data, save games, personal photos, app settings are all in the Cloud and/or accessible from macOS.

Don't you do online banking from macOS, don't you use 2FA from macOS?
Don't you think Apple should forbid these stuff on macOS? Because it's so insecure!
Don't you think Apple should immediately stop offering these services to its customers and macOS, in regards of improving security?

Thinking this way, macOS and the iCloud at its current state is acting like a backdoor to all your iPhone's data.
A locked-in iPhone does absolutely not add any security to your data.
They are just brainwashing their customers with security by obscurity.

If you really care that much for security, you better stop using online password managers, stop using Cloud storage, browse serious sites only, and buy a yubikey security 2FA hardware dongle, and do local encrypted backups only.

 

[Steve Adams]

flippant “moral code” comment aside, you can’t have “optional” authorized sideloading. It’s one of the other.

Well all sideloading is optional. You can either do it or NOT. it's one or the other! Side loading is 100% optional on android. You must physically go into the inner settings of the device and turn it on. It's not activated from purchase. So, yes, sideloading apps is entirely optional.

 

[Steve Adams]

@I7guy. Concerning your last comment.

Since there is no facepalm emoji on Macrumors (which is wild considering 90 percent of the apple user population only speak in emoji) I will leave this here.

 

[atomwork]

Apple being Apple. Like any father who doesn't want his children to use a toy. Nothing changed since 84

 

[mi7chy]

I'm torn between buying the app before Apple yanks it and rewarding Apple the 30% cut for bad behavior. I think I'll just buy Magic DosBox for Android instead.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=bruenor.magicbox

 

[cupcakes2000]

your computer holds the exact same stuff and probably even more sensitive data?

No it doesn’t. And anything sensitive is necessarily locked in to Cryptomator vaults due to the more insecure nature of the os.

don't you use 2FA from macOS?

I use 2fa ON My mac, from my phone app.

stop using Cloud storage

I don’t much, and when I do I use Cryptomator vaults.

you better stop using online password managers

I don’t use online password managers.

and do local encrypted backups only

I do.

Don't you do online banking from macOS,

I don’t. I use my phone.

You see, even after all of your incorrect assumptions, what have you even tried to ‘teach’ me? That Apple has brainwashed everyone- even security professionals- that ios is secure? More secure that a traditional os? More secure than vanilla android? It’s clearly more secure, there is plenty of independent info online verifying just how secure it is. They clearly aren’t brainwashing anyone in this manner. So what are you saying? Sideloading will increase security?

 

[sracer]

I'm torn between buying the app before Apple yanks it and rewarding Apple the 30% cut for bad behavior. I think I'll just buy Magic DosBox for Android instead.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=bruenor.magicbox

Interesting you should mention Magic DosBox for Android. I just purchased it 2 days ago for my Galaxy Tab S6. It's very rich in functionality and customization but one of the most non-intuitive interfaces I've ever used.

DOS apps and games work great. I can even run Geoworks and Windows 3.11 in Magic DosBox.

 

[theluggage]

However people have far too much faith in the apple review process, what do you think they do: disassemble your entire app and check and understand every line of it? Checking for possible exploits? nonsense

Of course they don't. I'd imagine it is a mixture of automated checks, scanning for known malware or prohibited system/library calls backed up by random human inspections (which would explain why something like the dos emulator slips through the net until a human being looks at it and sees the obvious). That's why it makes sense to have blanket bans on specific things (e.g. code execution, web browsers, unsupported system calls) which are inherently high-risk and difficult to test. Maybe Apple should spend a bit more money on the process. It's not perfect - but it is a lot better than nothing.

All the app store does in terms of security is two things:
1) make the hackers/crackers reach a slightly higher bar when trying to distribute malicious apps. (but you see the junk on the app store).

...which reduces the risk of malicious apps.

2) allow apple to pull the app when it discovered it was doing malicious things.

...which further reduces the risk from malicious apps, and makes it harder for repeat offenders.

It is all about reducing risk - not eliminating it.

The lock on your front door may only have a few hundred key combinations, and there are probably 101 tricks for opening doors and windows that you don't know about. If an experienced burglar turns up at your house and is determined to get in they will probably succeed because most locks on the market are pretty imperfect (go watch LockPickingLawyer on YouTube...) - so obviously you should just leave your doors and windows unlocked, right?

The perfect is the enemy of the good.

I quite agree that Apple shouldn't over state the security of the App Store, but I'd trust it a lot further than the alternatives.

The attack surface is the same with or without side-loading,

Not if side-loading allows things (like running arbitrary code, using undocumented/outdated system calls) that would be forbidden (& picked up 9 times out of 10) in the App store.

People who don't understanding security, sandboxing and operating systems shouldn't really argue this whole security angle. Multi-users operating systems like ones used by 1000s of students and staff at universities have allowed multiple users to run there own compiled code for decades, without affecting each other.

You might want to take your own advice about knowing what you are talking about. I worked in that world back in the day and those systems were about as secure as a wet paper bag and could and did get hacked. At least, if it was a student, they could be shouted out and threatened with expulsion - if someone external managed to get a user account, e.g. by guessing a password, it was a real headache because there were plenty of privilege-escalation tricks that would get you root from there (plus, the crackers had better sources of info - such as illicit copies of proprietary OS source code). You might also want to think about what the ratio of technically literate IT staff to students was - with teams of programmers and operators following up suspicious activity, writing custom code to shut down unattended terminals, force password changes, deal with forgotten passwords (no iffy "memorable information" nonsense) etc., managing backups, keeping the system up-to-date and generally dealing with system problems and security threats.

Anyway - the environment on a modern PC or, especially, a phone isn't about protecting 1000 users from each other and stopping them getting root. It's about one user who needs enough access to (e.g.) configure the hardware, networking, GPS etc. (which wouldn't be an issue on an old-school multiuser system) but also can't be trusted not to harm themselves by installing malware or a simple fat-finger error... meanwhile, raising the stakes enormously because rather than maybe stealing your MA dissertation, the bad guys have the potential of raiding your bank account, grabbing your credit card number or simply quietly phoning a premium-rate number while tracking your every move... Its a completely different ball game.

PS: windows is far better than it once was, at least it has UAC these days. (Problem is people don't understand it, nor do people understand why the mac is asking for their password)

The big problem with Windows is it's obsession with legacy support: although it was totally re-written in the mid-1990s with Windows NT, which has a proper security model, it still supports binaries from the Win16 era, which didn't have a proper security model and, roughly speaking, was all written to run as if it had admin privilege. Strict "UAC" with such software would mean popping up permission boxes all the time and just teaches users to click "yes" without thinking. That's finally going away now as the 64 bit version of Windows (which doesn't support win16) is becoming ubiquitous and will be the only option with Windows 11... but it was a big deal with Windows XP which could probably have been a lot more secure than it was, if not for the legacy support.

 

[Wildkraut]

Nothing like a strawman to prove a point.

Here a few more straws!

Being able to run Virtual Machines on the iPad (the M1 is even the same as macBook Air) is pure piracy.
Being able to run Docker on the iPad (the M1 is even the same as macBook Air) is pure piracy.
Being able run a decent IDE and compile code using different languages on the iPad (the M1 is even the same as macBook Air) is pure piracy.
Being able to offer a decent mouse pointer on the iPad (the M1 is even the same as macBook Air) as extension is pure piracy.
Being write device drivers and hockup external hardware to the iPads or iPhone lightning port and use them is also pure piracy.
Being able to use NFC for other kind of things is also pure piracy.
Being able to use bluetooth for stuff that is intentionally not allowed by Apple is pure piracy.
Being able to rollback to different versions of Apps and Games is pure piracy.
Being able to create backups without using Apples iCloud or iTunes is pure piracy.
Being able to load RingTones without buying a stupid RingTone Trash App, or without going some weirdo Garageband route is also pure piracy.
Being able to not fear that Apple can destroy your business with a single click is pure piracy.
Being able to use alternative payment methods is pure piracy.
Being able to backup the Games you once bought, and play them whenever you want in 15-30 years, without having to fear of running into a broken iTunes backup or of incompatibility with future version of iTunes, is also pure piracy.

This took me more 3mins, now i have enough of writing...

 

[mi7chy]

Interesting you should mention Magic DosBox for Android. I just purchased it 2 days ago for my Galaxy Tab S6. It's very rich in functionality and customization but one of the most non-intuitive interfaces I've ever used.

DOS apps and games work great. I can even run Geoworks and Windows 3.11 in Magic DosBox.

Is it cycle and artifact accurate enough to run 8088 MPH demo which used to require real IBM XT hardware before 86Box emulator later came out?

https://github.com/86Box/86Box

 

[Wildkraut]

No it doesn’t. And anything sensitive is necessarily locked in to Cryptomator vaults due to the more insecure nature of the os.

I use 2fa ON My mac, from my phone app.

I don’t much, and when I do I use Cryptomator vaults.

I don’t use online password managers.

I do.


I don’t. I use my phone.

You see, even after all of your incorrect assumptions, what have you even tried to ‘teach’ me? That Apple has brainwashed everyone- even security professionals- that ios is secure? More secure that a traditional os? More secure than vanilla android? It’s clearly more secure, there is plenty of independent info online verifying just how secure it is. They clearly aren’t brainwashing anyone in this manner. So what are you saying? Sideloading will increase security?

Congrats sounds like you belong to the 0.0001% of Apple users that does at least something right.

Anyway, I bet you're not telling the whole story.
If I had access to your macOS I surely would find someway to access all your iPhones data and more.
A few memory dumps here, few memory injections there, and I would get access to everywhere.

 

[I7guy]

Here a few more straws!

Being able to run Virtual Machines on the iPad (the M1 is even the same as macBook Air) is pure piracy.
Being able to run Docker on the iPad (the M1 is even the same as macBook Air) is pure piracy.
Being able run a decent IDE and compile code using different languages on the iPad (the M1 is even the same as macBook Air) is pure piracy.
Being able to offer a decent mouse pointer on the iPad (the M1 is even the same as macBook Air) as extension is pure piracy.
Being write device drivers and hockup external hardware to the iPads or iPhone lightning port and use them is also pure piracy.
Being able to use NFC for other kind of things is also pure piracy.
Being able to use bluetooth for stuff that is intentionally not allowed by Apple is pure piracy.
Being able to rollback to different versions of Apps and Games is pure piracy.
Being able to create backups without using Apples iCloud or iTunes is pure piracy.
Being able to load RingTones without buying a stupid RingTone Trash App, or without going some weirdo Garageband route is also pure piracy.
Being able to not fear that Apple can destroy your business with a single click is pure piracy.
Being able to use alternative payment methods is pure piracy.
Being able to backup the Games you once bought, and play them whenever you want in 15-30 years, without having to fear of running into a broken iTunes backup or of incompatibility with future version of iTunes, is also pure piracy.

This took me more 3mins, now i have enough of writing...

None of that means that sideloading is good or will even be allowed in the future. If one wants complete freedom to do what they want with the hardware they bought there is android. (You can do all that on iphones, you just have to figure out how and Apple isn't obliged to help you)

 

[kk200]

All the posturing and insistance that side loading is necessary for ‘power users’ amd its all about games 😂. I would rather ensure the security of my phone which I use for serious things like communication, banking, 2fa and passwords etc. It’s not a computer in the sense of a ‘free for all’ like a traditional desktop os, and I don’t want it to be. It needs to be secure amd locked down. I play the odd game and it’s cool I can, but that’s a secondary function.

By the way, using Nintendo as an example for an open system is hilarious. They are the original ‘walled garden’. Really all you’re talking about is the difference between owning a real life media, like a cartridge over a modern take on software, like a download. But that’s not even in the same ballpark as the conversation in this thread.

No, side loading is also useful for old apple device. My iphone5 and ipad mini 2 can barely download anything. My kid pushing me to buy a new iPad just because his minecraft cannot join his friends' online session. Even ipad mini 2 is absolutely OK for gaming minecraft.

 

[Wildkraut]

No, side loading is also useful for old apple device. My iphone5 and ipad mini 2 can barely download anything. My kid pushing me to buy a new iPad just because his minecraft cannot join his friends' online session. Even ipad mini 2 is absolutely OK for gaming minecraft.

Buy him some mid class Android device, your son and your wallet will thank you!

 

[falkon-engine]

This is the kind of consumer-hostile nonsense that is making me think long and hard about what I intend to replace my XS Max with.

I’d love to hear Apple explain how not letting me play 25 or 30-year-old games for a quick nostalgia fix is for my own good.

Of course they’d probably come up with some mealymouthed nonsense, like when they try to explain why it’s bad and wrong to stream external, unvetted content (games) to an iOS device, but it’s also perfectly fine to stream external, unvetted content (videos) to an iOS device.

Meanwhile safari allows the user to access porn and yet it’s installed by default with no ability to remove it. Apple’s policies are arbitrary and capricious.

 

[Krizoitz]

In my country there is a meme/saying, which can be politely translated like this:
"If your choice is limited to two rather similar options, the chance they both are total crap nears 100%"

If you want the original, search for "Escobar's axiom of choice".

Which is why forcing iOS to be more like Android is a terrible idea.

 

[Wildkraut]

Ohhh, I'm gonna play Google Doddle

Father's Day 2025

Father's Day 2025! #GoogleDoodle

www.google.com

 

[sracer]

Is it cycle and artifact accurate enough to run 8088 MPH demo which used to require real IBM XT hardware before 86Box emulator later came out?

https://github.com/86Box/86Box

I don't know, I haven't tried it. Magic DosBox is a free download and can be fully unlocked with an IAP. So you can try it before you buy it.

 

[Deguello]

If there was ever a case for going to the Android platform, this is right here.

Fixed it for you.

If you have a case that Apple is applying ToS to one and not the other, that is a great court case to get compensation. Betcha lose this one too?

You didn’t fix anything. It’s an intellectually vacuous response.

Remember when all the Apple fanboys said big phones were stupid and using a tiny iPhone with one one hand was the perfect experience? And that people should switch to Android if they wanted a big phone?

Well, people made it clear what they wanted, Apple changed, and all the fanboys memory-holed their objections to large phones. There’s no reason preferences on more app choice for people who want it is any less valid an idea.

“Love it or leave it” is a childish response.