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Originally posted by Raiwong
ironic isn't it motorola invented mobile phones and palm proccesors nearly the key to all small gadgets nowadays now they are dying, like apple guess the inventors never get credit.
in the business world, you get paid for what you do, not what you've done. i despise companies like bose that make crap and price it high (or good stuff and price it exhorbitantly) just because they have a reputation, and equally bad are companies that expect to succeed because of what they have done in the past. one innovation puts you in the history books, maybe. it's continued innovation that makes you truly soccessful.
 
shadow your rena tanaka avator is really nice!!! shes so cute!!! where did u get that image from?
 
Originally posted by Raiwong
ironic isn't it motorola invented mobile phones and palm proccesors nearly the key to all small gadgets nowadays now they are dying, like apple guess the inventors never get credit.

Motorola did not invent mobile phones. But Motorola has probably done more than anyone (except possibly Nokia) to make them useful. The original cellular technology came out of AT&T Bell Labs but AT&T did not have the foresight to develop it.
 
Originally posted by Chisholm
Can I have their desert since they aren't going to eat it?

You can eat all the "desert" you want if you have the stomach for it.

As for me, I am off to eat my dessert. Yummy raspberries...
 
Re: the alliance

Originally posted by Ambrose Chapel
Does anyone know if the AIM PowerPC alliance is still together in any official/formal sense? Or is it like the relationship between microsoft and Apple now?

Been dead since Motorola bought the Somerset processor plant.
 
Originally posted by ktlx
Motorola did not invent mobile phones. But Motorola has probably done more than anyone (except possibly Nokia) to make them useful. The original cellular technology came out of AT&T Bell Labs but AT&T did not have the foresight to develop it.
Didn't have the foresight to develop it? You may have forgotten that there was a little thing called the "break-up of AT&T." Oh, yes, it was in all the papers. Cell phones hit it big soon thereafter. Where I lived at the time, our local Baby Bell was the largest cell phone provider. Its advertisements touted its use of "Bell Laboratories technology." IIRC, AT&T was prevented from entering the cell phone market under the break-up decree. Eventually, AT&T was allowed to enter the cell phone market. It is still in the market and seems to be doing reasonably well.
 
As far as IBM "licensing" AltiVec for the PPC 970. Not true. IBM uses a vector processor noted as "SIMD" for their PPC 970. It does however "share" the basic architecture to remain compatibility, but it's an IBM design, likely contracted by Apple.

Why do I say "likely contracted by Apple"?

IBM has very little use for SIMD, as they use PowerPC's in server-class hardware where they run most everything on Linux or AIX (Unix). With little->no Linux applications out there relying on SIMD/AltiVec, IBM has been reluctant to invest in the technology. Largely because they knew that Apple was going to go with Motorola chipsets too. With IBM now seeing a disgruntled Apple, wanting an "easy out" for at least the near term 'til they can transition to Cocoa or make Carbon a subset of the portable Cocoa API, IBM likely received a great deal of funding to advance their next generation processors to take up the slack, knowing full-well Apple will gladly purchase from them to get away from Motorola.

It's a shame, I always liked Motorola, but after they got spurned in the cloning deal, they've become largely "Anti-Mac" and have a bad resolve for the whole situation. My ex-girlfriend's mom worked at their corporate center out in the Hoffman Estates/Schaumburg area and soon after the CHRP/PPCP-based G3 clone (the first G3 machine) was ixnayed by Jobs and Apple who were behind the 8-ball; Motorola began selling off or giving away "ANYTHING" Mac in their offices, and transitioning over to Windows PC's almost immediately. They were more of a 75/25 %Mac:pC ratio.

My bank... Apple might rely on up-rated G3's for the iBooks, but unless they can get a substantial speed boost out of them, my guess is they will still license a remaining supply of the G4 from Motorola until IBM can bring forth a shrunken die-size PPC 9XX series processor that'll be cool enough to work in a laptop.

Either that, or we'll see a transition away from "G#" naming conventions to a new 2 prong assault with a ::name 1:: processor being an ultra fast G3, while ::name 2:: equals the PPC 970 as Apple classifies it. After all, Apple did a similar deal when they balked on "AltiVec" in favor of "Velocity Engine" for the name of the technology inside. Probably a good move because that's an Apple term, not a Motorola term, and it'll likely transition smoothly over to the "SIMD". I still don't see Apple embracing a G3 for aluminum/titanium PowerBooks though, not even at 2Ghz. It's probably more of a backup plan than anything... as they'll hopefully have a more efficienty 9xx processor out within a year or so I figure, which... I'm sure they could eek out on G4 Powerbooks for another year, assuming Motorola doesn't pull the plug on them. This "lawsuit" deal is probably a protective posturing by Apple more than anything, just in case Motorola gets another dumb idea in their head.

Not that the PPC 970 is entirely out of the question for laptops even, but it'd definitely not be something I'd want to sit down with, wrapped in aluminum/titanium, and have it parked in my lap. LoL Ladies wouldn't even need Nair... just burn the hairs right off. LoL It'd at least be "CLOSE" to what the PC contingent has to suffer through, although I have no idea how hot the Centrino laptops get... I know the Pentium M and Duron-based laptops throw out some heat though, although... even the G4 isn't exactly lukewarm itself, being rather "scalding".

I doubt we'll even see the lawsuit as I think PPC 970 is written in stone for the near term, as I really think Apple's just using this as a lobby to keep the G4 in production 'til a more efficient, less heat-emitting 9xx is ready for primetime. So, I think Big Blue is our saviour... at least for a bit.

What the future holds further down the road though is anyone's guess. Depends on what we see out of IBM. I have more faith in them than Motorola at this point, but I wouldn't even mind a move to SPARC or Alpha if it came to it, down the road. SPARC actually makes a lot of sense (Alpha is wicked fast, but... it's not geared for laptops, which it would have to be... plus... have to see how dedicated Compaq/DEC really is to landing Apple, rather than remain a bit player) as Sun could be a "VERY" strategic ally, and a good fit as both companies are similarly loose and fleeting, and notoriously antagonistic to Microsoft (although Sun's pretty staunch against HP and IBM as well; of which... HP was a company Jobs looked to as a mentor of sorts, and IBM has had decent ties with Apple since Pink/Taligent). I could even see Apple buoying themselves with Sun, re-working OS X to integrate a lot of Solaris into it (also based off of BSD Unix), and merging together... with Apple at the low-middle end and Sun at the middle-high end.

Of course... Jobs and McNeely might clash though, as they're both mercurial and opinionated, although both want to beat Microsoft BAD! Then again, Apple's in a slightly more healthy position than , but Sun "STILL" has a stranglehold on the high-end of Enterprise that no Wintel competition can hack. IBM might get them with PPC/Power# equipped Linux boxes; but I really think Apple down the road is gunning for competing with them there too... what would be best... forge a deal with a giant monolithic corporation that's full of red tape and bureacracy (definitely not a Jobs forte), or deal with a smaller-scale enterprise-only company that fits Apple's philosophies nicely, because it mirrors them? A few years ago, SGI would've been a good fit too... but they've cannibalized themselves so much, that outside of Maya and Pro-Engineer and the like... Apple is almost on a par, and SGI isn't even in the ballgame compared to Sun.

I don't think Apple will be as successful in Enterprise if they go it alone (take too long, might lose out on beating Microsoft by then, if Microsoft "EVER" finds a way in substantially enough; Linux might beat them all in, as they're doing pretty good as "young" as the movement is), and I think it'll take them awhile to get where Sun is now. Merging the two... and I personally think Apple should buy Sun instead of Universal... you have a company that does "EVERYTHING", top to bottom... and trust me... merging two of Microsoft's biggest competition in two differing markets (and Sun is big in education with their servers and workstations; the bookstore at OSU even sells them)... and the advantages of a Vector-graphics add-on processor to SPARC, and that evolving into everything from a low cost iMac/eMac to a high end server farm (or smaller clustering XServes that are bigger than todays model)... Apple could do everything from personal desktop to rendering for Pixar, and have "COMPLETE" control over their processor situation, in-house. Plus Sun has StarOffice, Java, Jini, their server and redundant hardware experience, countless engineers, their own line of hardware products (even make their own RAID disk arrays).... much more robust and valuable than Maya alone.
 
no still motorola invented the mobile phone in a way because they made the technology actually small enough to be mobile (well kind off), nokia came much later after the motorola startacs (evolved motorola clamshell phone).

of course wireless technology was alrady invented before mobile phone
 
Originally posted by MisterMe
Didn't have the foresight to develop it? You may have forgotten that there was a little thing called the "break-up of AT&T." Oh, yes, it was in all the papers. Cell phones hit it big soon thereafter. Where I lived at the time, our local Baby Bell was the largest cell phone provider. Its advertisements touted its use of "Bell Laboratories technology." IIRC, AT&T was prevented from entering the cell phone market under the break-up decree. Eventually, AT&T was allowed to enter the cell phone market. It is still in the market and seems to be doing reasonably well.

I was talking about cellular technology and not necessarily cellular service. AT&T Bell Labs did not provide service--it developed equipment and technology for others to provide service.

AT&T was barred from providing local phone service in the US but that did not prevent AT&T Bell Labs from developing the best local switch for the NAR market--the 5ESS. AT&T Bell Labs was not barred from developing any equipment or hardware.

That is what I meant by not having the foresight to develop it.

But even if I meant the service portion, your post is not relevant because cellular technology was invented over a decade before the break up. There were no serious discussions about the breakup of AT&T during the Nixon administration. Please check your dates in the future.
 
Originally posted by IVIIVI4ck3y27
I could even see Apple buoying themselves with Sun, re-working OS X to integrate a lot of Solaris into it (also based off of BSD Unix), and merging together... with Apple at the low-middle end and Sun at the middle-high end.

The Solaris 2 series of OSes (Solaris 2.1-Solaris 2.6, Solaris 7, Solaris 8, Solaris 9, etc.) is not based on BSD Unix. It is based upon System V Release 4 with POSIX and BSD compatibility added.

The Solaris 1 series of OSes (SunOS 4.1.x) was based upon BSD Unix but SunOS has been obsolete for years. I don't believe it was ever updated to run on the UltraSPARC processors.

I doubt an Apple/Sun alliance like you mention would work because Sun makes better enterprise equipment than Apple does. Unless you are locked into Mac OS X, no enterprise customer in their right mind would choose an Xserve over a Sun Fire.
 
Originally posted by Raiwong
no still motorola invented the mobile phone in a way because they made the technology actually small enough to be mobile (well kind off), nokia came much later after the motorola startacs (evolved motorola clamshell phone).

That still is not inventing something. That is taking someone else's invention and making it useful. However I would argue that is the far more valuable role. The phones AT&T Bell Labs used were still mobile just not lightweight or able to fit in your pocket.
 
naaah so apple didn't invent home computers? simply because they took larger circuit designs and shrink it down. Inventing things is about taking things and putting them together in a usefull ways, nobody ever builds everything themselves.

its like just because the guy who invented the lightbulb didn't invent electricity doesn't meant he isn't making something new.
 
Originally posted by IVIIVI4ck3y27
...but I wouldn't even mind a move to SPARC or Alpha if it came to it, down the road. SPARC actually makes a lot of sense (Alpha is wicked fast, but... it's not geared for laptops, which it would have to be... plus... have to see how dedicated Compaq/DEC really is to landing Apple, rather than remain a bit player) as Sun could be a "VERY" strategic ally...

Neither of these will happen.

Compaq/DEC is now HP. HP is set on "knifing the baby" so to speak after the Alpha EV79. They aren't even touting the performance of the thing even though it's pretty darn snappy. It's just a design that fulfills their comittments under various (including government) contracts for Alpha development. Heck, they already sold much of their Alpha assets to Intel. HP is going to move to Itanium, case closed. (And well they should, because it's their architecture.)

Sun has been notoriously behind with SPARC. UltraSPARC III was behind on arrival and UltraSPARC IV uses the III core (although there is a process shrink in there). While Sun servers have good throughput, their workstations aren't competitive and probably won't be, at least in the near term. Thus, the mass migration in many 3D houses to Linux on Intel (WETA or Pixar anyone?). And if Linux has the high end features and hardware support to do some of the higher end visualization stuff, Sun will become even less relevant in the workstation market (as will SGI and most other RISC workstation vendors).
 
Originally posted by ktlx
The Solaris 2 series of OSes (Solaris 2.1-Solaris 2.6, Solaris 7, Solaris 8, Solaris 9, etc.) is not based on BSD Unix. It is based upon System V Release 4 with POSIX and BSD compatibility added.

The Solaris 1 series of OSes (SunOS 4.1.x) was based upon BSD Unix but SunOS has been obsolete for years. I don't believe it was ever updated to run on the UltraSPARC processors.

I stand corrected there. You are correct. However, Bill Joy who is an engineer at Sun; worked strongly with BSD prior, having been a student at Berkeley and contributing to the development of the kernal. Apple's BSD variant isn't a monolithic kernal anyhow (as in a BSD variant, verbatim), but Apple's system is flexible enough to swap out the kernal for whatever is good/better. After all, they seem to think Mach with BSD is a better choice... but that remains to be seen. If you side with Torvald's... that probably isn't the case...

I doubt an Apple/Sun alliance like you mention would work because Sun makes better enterprise equipment than Apple does. Unless you are locked into Mac OS X, no enterprise customer in their right mind would choose an Xserve over a Sun Fire.

In a sense, that's exactly why Apple would look to purchase into Sun. You have to understand... for Apple to get to the "ENTERPRISE" level that they are pursuing (heir apparent as they compete with low-end x86 servers with XServe, XServe RAID, and the XServe Clustering hardware), it would take time and development to play catch-up to even get "CLOSE" to where Sun is. The idea, of course, is to merge the companies together to exploit each other's strengths. This is exactly why the initial fruits of the venture would take "TIME" to develop, but it'd likely involve the evolution/merger/cross-pollenation of OS X and Solaris, and possibly even shifting to a Linux foundation in a "BRAND NEW" OS that contains the best of both worlds... Apple's renowned GUI savvy, and Solaris's renowned serving, scalability, and engineering for Enterprise.

It'd also likely evolve into a singular architecture shared between the two companies for hardware. Whatever that chosen architecture... even x86 (not particularly viable for it's legacy elements... it's good for low-end because it's fast, and even moreso... cheap, but it's got it's share of flaws as well, and isn't as flexible or powerful as SPARC even), which Sun has moved to for some products, and whether it's based on BSD/Mach, Linux, or a System V release 4 or whatever... if Apple eventually wants to enter Enterprise, and I feel that they "WILL" because it's the colossal $-maker of the computer segments... they're not going to "EVER" get there alone.

Sun isn't as healthy as they once were... but they're far, far, far from being in the same predicament SGI has fallen into. SGI was first and foremost a "workstation" company... they do have a rather nice Enterprise division, but whoever would buy into them would find that their technological assets were stripped by nVidia and Microsoft, and that they're left with a decent enterprise firm, a disarray in terms of their Intel and platform strategy (x86/Itanium or MIPS? Linux, Windows, or Irix? Which way do we go George? Dahhhhhh... Okay George.), and an awesome roster of software under Alias/Wavefront... but then you have that colossal festering mess that is "Cray". The mainframe purchase of Cray was what put SGI in their present predicament. Sun was a workstation company that transcended the market... even giving up a good body of the "Workstation" market to x86 Wintel PC's. Linux doesn't even really play into this market yet. It's mostly a server platform... working best as a rendering farm via clustering or as a server for web serving, file serving, print serving, or mail serving than anything else at the present.

So yes, Sun conceded the Workstation segment... then again, they did that as of the "early" 1990's. How long have ya'll been sleeping to suddenly realize that?
 
Neither of these will happen.

Compaq/DEC is now HP. HP is set on "knifing the baby" so to speak after the Alpha EV79. They aren't even touting the performance of the thing even though it's pretty darn snappy. It's just a design that fulfills their comittments under various (including government) contracts for Alpha development. Heck, they already sold much of their Alpha assets to Intel. HP is going to move to Itanium, case closed. (And well they should, because it's their architecture.)

Actually, Compaq/DEC is now HP/Compaq... it's all "OWNED" by HP, but Compaq still exists and still sells machines. Even many of HP's servers they sell now are Compaq designs, and many still contain Compaq logos. HP, unlike what Compaq did to DEC, is not killing off the Compaq nameplate... at least in the [ul]"nearterm"[/ul].

If you'll re-read what I wrote prior, it was a matter of whether or not Compaq/HP "WISH" to make Alpha viable beyond just it's current market, as in to expand it's presence or keep it alive. I believe Compaq (prior to HP involvement) had been looking in the past to "Knife the Baby", as you say, until h= "2g a squabble with Intel that led to them "NOT" selling the remainder of the development off. This was around the time that Compaq began looking "SERIOUSLY" at AMD. Either way, it doesn't mean the Alpha will become anything more than what it is... and likely fizzle out after that, but... I do believe Compaq had been looking into what they "COULD" do with Alpha to compete. After all, I'm sure if Compaq wanted to sell the remainder of the Alpha manufacturing and tooling over to Intel, they could've... even with the government support of Alpha and previous commitments signed to Alpha.

Getting Alpha marketed? Alpha hasn't been marketed since it's inception!!! LoL Don't blame that on HP, hell... not even on Compaq... DEC did a pitiful job getting the flags and banners raised for Alpha, otherwise they would've likely stayed afloat to keep the Alpha in production themselves!! LoL It was a niche processor, with plenty of capability, but it was left to sell itself to anyone and everyone... and noone bought it, because few knew of it, and those that did... realized there was little->no application support for it, going all the way back to Windows NT.

What HP does with them... is probably just pull the plug and sell it off to Intel. Yet they haven't so far... and with Linux, Alpha has life, life like it had 'NEVER' seen prior under any DEC/Compaq, or even HP UNIX variant. I don't know that I'd pour billions into further development, but as long as Alpha has life, and Linux makes it viable (any processor is viable with Linux, as adaptation and portion of applications and the system itself is easy... unlike Windows, which NT [XP] has been ixnayed on Alpha largely due to low volume sales, same with NT being killed for PowerPC after version 4), go for it... knock your socks off, and see what comes out of it. If Itanium goes bust, and it's not been exactly "earth-shattering", it could well make you out to look like God when the minions come running to be saved from the dead-end religion that Itanium could well be...

Many are incredibly disappointed by what they've seen out of Itanium, enough that Sun... who staked a lot of their future on Intel, has dove back into SPARC development while embracing x86 for some low-end stuff. "LOW-END" = keyword here... and btw, Sun embraces said x86 hardware with Linux and Solaris, just look at their LX50.

Of course... if Apple really needed a new processor platform, they could purchase the remainder of Alpha's development and manufacturing, and move it in-house. The problem with this though... is manyfold. Apple would have to get OS X on Alpha das pronto, or buy a suitable OS (OpenVMS) or modify Linux to get on Alpha in a hurry, then try to integrate it into the Apple scheme 'til a more OS X Mac-like interface was ready for Linux, or until OS X Server was suitable, then they'd need hardware suitable enough for enterprise... something unlike Apple has ever built. They'd have to get the machines put together so they could produce viable product in the markets where Alpha is viable, right now, and transition those platforms that were previously Alpha-centric to the new platform on Alpha in a hurry. They'd have to transition Alpha to a efficiency formula to get it to be "cool" enough to work in laptops. Any company that purchases Alpha and doesn't immediately setup shop is going to eat development costs for a lonnnnnnnnnng time, and take losses as a result.

Going with Intel or AMD (outside supplier), Apple could slowly develop the OS in-house (in the background while deployed on PowerPC/Power#), transition the move, and then pull the plug on PowerPC with ample warning to developers so they're ready for the change, and smoothly move from one to the other with minimal loss or hurt as a result of it, and without a highly fragmented system roadmap. They could get development machines out to software developers using the new chipsets, and work on porting much of the applications over.

Apple moving to Intel/AMD is an option but it also holds the great potential of demeaning Apple. When you compare a higher cost Apple machine to a lower cost <PC brand here> machine... the only differences are OS and a proprietary, non-ATX case/motherboard design. Compared on price... it'd make it harder for Apple to sell machines unless the GUI was that much better (or unless Apple went to a PC format of modularity, bad idea), and unless the machines were that much cooler looking, and unless you could make the system seem significantly better in all areas and manners.

Even said, buying Sun is still a benefit... as Apple could even transition Sun/Apple hardware to Intel, x86 for desktops and workstations (Apple) and low end servers (Sun), and then Enterprise could move to Itanium. Shift Mac OS X and Solaris to a merged platform down the road (perhaps Mac OS XI or whatever you wish to refer to it as) with Solaris underpinnings, OS X GUI, and combined API's (Solaris, Cocoa, Carbon, and Java) and x11 support (for leveraging Linux apps.). It could even use a Linux-based kernal (non-monolithic, of course) as the foundation. The point is... Apple would still profit on "CURRENT" Sun hardware and software "UNTIL" they could get things hashed out and reach that [ul]future[/ul] roadmap of the combined Apple/Sun entity on whatever processor they fathom as best for them.
 
Sun has been notoriously behind with SPARC. UltraSPARC III was behind on arrival and UltraSPARC IV uses the III core (although there is a process shrink in there). While Sun servers have good throughput, their workstations aren't competitive and probably won't be, at least in the near term. Thus, the mass migration in many 3D houses to Linux on Intel (WETA or Pixar anyone?). And if Linux has the high end features and hardware support to do some of the higher end visualization stuff, Sun will become even less relevant in the workstation market (as will SGI and most other RISC workstation vendors).

Once again, you're presumptious that Apple is strictly looking at "WORKSTATION" development (Workstation does "NOT" equal "ENTERPRISE", it has nothing to do with "SERVING"). The truth is, Apple has quite a decent low-priced workstation line in their Pro models, that are comparable to the PC-based Workstations and better in many cases than what Sun and SGI build on the low-end. With PPC 970 coming online, and support for nVidia (in-house) and ATI, Apple has much of the same advantages of what Windows has built over SGI in the late 1980's and into the 1990's when SGI slipped. Of course, Wintel has these advantages in engineering and graphics for workstations (largely because of ATI and nVidia and other cards like Oxygen cards), but Apple has a key software base to work from to compete, and can leverage x11-based applications that Linux can... via Apple's support for x11 and of services like Fink.

SGI, Sun, and Linux lack "MANY" of the key software applications to do "SIMPLE" Office-style stuff, which most "WORKSTATIONS" rely on, as well as the hardcore applications that a "WORKSTATION" is known for. You can't fire up Photoshop, open Excel, Final Cut, After Effects, Vectorworks, Form Z, Archicad, or use Powerpoint. There's no SGI or Sun laptops... etc. etc. Sun is tied primarily to a proprietary hardware/processor roadmap used largely in "ONE" segment (Enterprise), and they've not scaled any processors down to the smaller markets to take advantage (increase development), nor have they had the infrastructure, being a smaller company, to focus on workstations... that is where Apple complements Sun, because Apple works from workstations down. The G4 Pro line is in effect, workstations, and equipped with 970's with OS X... they're a perfect match for anything Wintel throws at them, which is the "REAL" workstation segment. Linux isn't workstation-ready yet for much of anything commercially purchased, and won't be anytime in the "NEAR" future I don't feel, unless Adobe, Macromedia, AutoDesk, and Microsoft, et al. jump on the bandwagon....

Linux has support for doing higher end visualization because the people that work on those machines (those you mentioned) have the programming savvy to develop it for it. They could make their own OS if necessary, but it's highly impractical, hence they have gone with Sun in the past, and now favor an open-source Linux OS because they can take something pre-existing and morph it to their needs (it's not that the hardware is better, but their integration is, and their flexibility, for being so savvy, is immense... plus, no doubt... it's CHEAP!). It's largely in-house and proprietary software that reigns on Linux, made for specific tasks by people that want a more encompassing and flexible need, and have the tremendous resources to get it without lobbying to a company. It's a means to an end...

You can "BANK" on it that Linux won't replace the whole kit and kaboodle anytime soon, or make a "BIG INROADS" into Workstations. They lack the fundamental smaller apps... and I doubt we'll see Adobe making Photoshop anytime soon for Linux (they're tied strongly to Microsoft, with secondary support for Apple for the timebeing... which I expect Apple to launch a Photoshop competitor overtime... following their iDVD DVD Studio Pro philosophies... as well as their iMovie/Final Cut Express/Final Cut Pro philosophies... iPhoto/***/***?)... and GIMP isn't even in PS's ballpark yet. It's good... but not great, although given some work it could rival PS (won't change people's perception over night though), but it's so far from having a "Human Interface Guideline" set for both KDE and Gnome that it's ludicrous to even think it could rival PS.

The problem with Linux is... there's no leadership on the levels that there is in other systems (it's more like a tug of war), as Torvald's is a "TECHNICIAN"-minded opinionated individual, unlike Gates who is a visionary pirate, and Jobs who is a true visionary (with adept pirating skills). If Linux turns out to be a better choice, it'll still trickle down into someone tossing a proprietary system on top, and keeping the "Linux" name out of the limelight on the consumer end. Torvald's believes strongly in a lot of things, but he's also a "technical" man and until we see a dumbed down GUI on the order of what Lindows brings, only 10,000x's more refined, and with more applications and support... Linux will struggle getting to the desktop without someone like Gates or Jobs supporting it, and without an understanding of how to make "easy to use" and "compelling" equate "Linux".

For the giant companies with permanent, on-site, IT staffs and custom-written proprietary softwares... Linux is an option. For smaller to larger SoHo-type stuff and small-medium-sized corporations who pay for services though, small mom & pop local shops doing their own Linux servers will be competing against Sun, HP, IBM, Dell, et al. in terms of x86 equipped Linux servers that are "SUPPORTED" and "INTEGRATED" via trained technicians from each of the big companies, or via technicians from the local mom & pop computer shop. This is exactly where Apple's x86 rivalling XServes and XServe RAID's, and XServe Clusters fit, along with OS X Server equipped G4 desktops... as they compete in low-end servers with a very comparable, and competent, platform. It also comes without the tremendous needs for support staffs or services, as it's as easy to use as... well... a Mac. :)

For higher-end... Linux has it's champions (almost every vendor), but it also has a long uphill battle. One where everyone is entrenched, and to their right... they face Apple and Microsoft in workstations/desktops. Not going to be easy, especially without an intuitive GUI and a large roster of apps., games, productivity software, and workstation apps. Server software is relatively easy... the rest is difficult. Server hardware is hard... desktop hardware is relatively easy.

I don't see Sun's lead slipping anytime soon... and I don't see Apple just hopping up into the market and taking on the big dogs. That is why a Sun/Apple merger would work... because even if Apple transitioned Sun's mainstays away from say... Solaris and SPARC (over time, right away would be foolish) you would definitely see the technologies of Sun combined into something else, or see Apple embrace something comparable and worthy... perhaps even in-house PowerPC development (using Sun's team) or a next-generation SPARC or <your name here> architecture (as in, new, never brought forth).

So to expect Apple to just slap OS X on everything, as it is now, is naive. If OS X transitions to Sun, it'd do so based on a merger of Solaris and OS X, perhaps as a future OS that'd share the GUI and API frameworks (compatibilities) of an OS X, along with the API's and frameworks (compatibilities) of Solaris, riding on top of either a BSD or System V kernal... or perhaps even... Linux, or an all-new kernal. Those that figure OS X will be Apple's OS forever without any significant changes along the way are foolish. Let's face it, they're probably the same one's that bough "Apple II Forever" t-shirts, or believed that Mac OS Classic should remain forever. ::buzzer:: Not happening... and having a good future game plan, is a definite plus. Given time to get Solaris and OS X together... I think Apple would have great success. Whatever processor they choose...

Apple could dust off the old "OpenStep" (Cocoa) API's for riding on top of Solaris, update them to the current spec, and deply them on Solaris X (10), adding Carbon API's along with them. Suddenly, a simple recompile of programs like Photoshop, Illustrator, Freehand, Flash, Director, Fireworks, GoLive, DreamWeaver, Final Cut (Express/Pro), etc. etc. would run on Solaris X... and said developers could release the next "VERSIONS" of their software on hybrid OS X/Solaris CD's. XServe could be Sun's new low-end server line, and Apple could benefit from Sun's patents and technologies in ramping up PPC 970 workstations/servers (and lower end G4/PPC 9xx laptops/iMacs/eMacs) in the near term 'til they solidify their future roadmap and where they're going.

Will Apple buying Sun happen? Who knows?!? Yet it'd be a far better investment than Universal Music, that's for damn sure. Apple can license music from "ALL" of the labels and make a minimal profit per song, or they could start their own label themselves, focused on bringing the considerable wealth of Indie artists to the masses... in a way that none of the sharing services has been able to do.

Universal is a bloodletting, mired in so much red tape and bureacracy and the RIAA witch-hunt syndrome that it "COULDN'T" possibly fit Apple's loose principles and policies and loose handling of product. Sun is just as loose... more like a fraternity than a corporation. Apple's investment in Sun and Cafepress.com would return profits (maybe not all the time... but at least a good percentage of the time)... the Universal purchase would eat up a "TON" of cash reserve, and likely not produce a profit for quite some time, if ever.
 
Originally posted by IVIIVI4ck3y27
I stand corrected there. You are correct. However, Bill Joy who is an engineer at Sun; worked strongly with BSD prior, having been a student at Berkeley and contributing to the development of the kernal.

That is true but Bill Joy has long since moved along to other things. He was off OS development a long time ago. You don't waste your Chief Scientist's time on kernel porting.

In a sense, that's exactly why Apple would look to purchase into Sun. You have to understand... for Apple to get to the "ENTERPRISE" level that they are pursuing (heir apparent as they compete with low-end x86 servers with XServe, XServe RAID, and the XServe Clustering hardware), it would take time and development to play catch-up to even get "CLOSE" to where Sun is.

While that is true, of what benefit would there be to Sun? Sun has a market cap over twice what Apple's is. While Sun's future is not certain in the least, their hardware sales are not declining in double digit percentages like Apple's are (except for the PowerBooks).

In the eyes of Wall Street, Sun is the stronger company. Sun would have to see a benefit in merging or working with Apple in order for the relationship to happen. I just don't see where Apple brings anything to Scott McNealy's vision of Sun's future.

The idea, of course, is to merge the companies together to exploit each other's strengths. This is exactly why the initial fruits of the venture would take "TIME" to develop, but it'd likely involve the evolution/merger/cross-pollenation of OS X and Solaris, and possibly even shifting to a Linux foundation in a "BRAND NEW" OS that contains the best of both worlds... Apple's renowned GUI savvy, and Solaris's renowned serving, scalability, and engineering for Enterprise.

The problem is that Apple's GUI savvy is completely irrelevant to Sun's core markets. As much as Steve Jobs talks about it, people simply don't manage a data center filled with dozens, hundreds or thousands of servers using a proprietary GUI interface. The people managing these systems are not your grandmother trying to surf the Web. I am not saying the existing tools are perfect (far from it). What I am saying is that Apple's core competencies have very little (some would argue no) intersection with Sun's core business.

Mac OS X does not really have anything interesting to pick up for Solaris that isn't already there and bulletproofed. Mac OS X is a great desktop OS. But as a server OS when compared to Solaris it is a joke. On the low end, Mac OS X even has a difficult time competing with Linux. It has the support by established players. Mac OS X does not.

I think Steve Jobs is guiding Apple in the only right path for the company. As much as people want Apple to become a significant enterprise player, that simply won't happen. Apple's strength is in the creative professional arena and they need to continue to focus all of their energy in that area. The only criticism anyone can really point at Apple for that market is that their PowerMacs are overpriced and underpowered. I believe that is only a temporary situation and once the PowerMac 970s arrive, creative professionals will start buying PowerMacs again in quantity. Those companies will need servers and an Xserve is likely to meet their needs as well or better than a Solaris/SPARC, IBM/Power4 or Windows/Intel server.
 
Originally posted by IVIIVI4ck3y27
Many are incredibly disappointed by what they've seen out of Itanium, enough that Sun... who staked a lot of their future on Intel, has dove back into SPARC development while embracing x86 for some low-end stuff. "LOW-END" = keyword here... and btw, Sun embraces said x86 hardware with Linux and Solaris, just look at their LX50.

This is completely wrong. Sun never bet any part of the future on Intel. In fact, completely the opposite. Sun has tried to kill off the Solaris/x86 development and contributed so little to the Solaris/Itanium development that Intel gave them the boot.

Scott McNealy has been one of the most vocal critics of the Intel Itanium since the beginning. Only Sun and IBM have been steadfast in their insistence on focusing on their own processors.

Even said, buying Sun is still a benefit...

Apple cannot buy Sun without someone so believing in that marriage, they will loan Apple billions and billions of dollars. Apple's cash on hand could not buy even 1/2 of Sun at current market value and Apple's market cap is less than half of Sun's. A stock swap is out of the question so it has to be at least a combination stock and cash deal. Apple does not have enough cash.

Someone would have to loan them probably $7B to $8B in order for this to happen. In the process, you would kill Sun because Apple would never let Sun run the resulting company, so there goes all your experienced enterprise people.
 
Originally posted by IVIIVI4ck3y27
As far as IBM "licensing" AltiVec for the PPC 970. Not true. IBM uses a vector processor noted as "SIMD" for their PPC 970. It does however "share" the basic architecture to remain compatibility, but it's an IBM design, likely contracted by Apple.

...

SIMD is a generic term, Single Instruction Multiple Data. The SIMD part is VMX, the same name given it by Motorola and IBM did license Motorola's design although this doesn't mean that they're about to use it. They just need compatibility with it.
 
Re: Turning point

Originally posted by zigi
Motorola have not been any use to Apple for many years now. The last major architecture advance was with the G3, and then later only with AltiVec. The G4 is only a modification of the G3 with added vec units and a couple of other changes.
Please read at least the thread you are commenting on before posting.

As stated multiple times here, the G4 is not simply a G3 with AltiVec. They are very different cores.
 
Re: Re: Yeah, I'd love to see this...

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
No...THE PEOPLE'S COURT! :)
Nah...

You have to stick with the original with Judge Wapner and bailiff Rusty Burrell...

Which means they must fight it out in Judge Wapner’s Animal Court. :D
 
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