apple trying to fool us -- my take on the recent retina "update"

[gentlefury]

1) they hardly updated the existing macbook lines.

wrong, this is a MAJOR update from the previous model...the screen is only the tip of the update. The new CPU is worlds better, the GPU is insane! 16GB ram is a massive upgrade, 2 thunderbolt ports and USB3 make this an incredible update to the line!

2) instead of doing that, they introduced a "new" macbook pro line that is upscale.

I don't really know what upscale means..does that mean its too expensive for you? That should have always been the case then.

3) they could have extended this to most of the other macbooks.

Sadly, you are once again wrong. They doubled the battery pack when they removed the optical bay. Good luck adding more batteries to the MBA and keeping it the same thickness. The only other one that leaves is the 13" MBP...but it is already completely redundant!

4) but that would have looked like a huge price increase.

You again with unfounded price increases.

5) the "separate" "retina" macbook pro line allowed apple to have a separate high-price, extremely high-margin product that people are willing to buy.

Actually, lower price than the older model...and still completely in line with their pricing for the last 10+ years!

6) no one would have paid more for an updated macbook pro.

People pay more every year for an updated MBP

7) by labeling it a retina mbp and pretending it's a separate item, apple can hike up the price.

Trust me, it is a seperate item...again, price is less.

8) it's the craziest price hike any computer company has ever managed to pull off within an update.

Ummm, wow, it is $200 over the traditional base price of the MBP for the last decade. Get over it.

9) the existing lines were artificially slowed down in order to be able to create a new price reference point of the RMBP.

Actually, the rMBP was intentionally overclocked to keep up paces with the retina screen. Again, you are dead wrong.

10) it would have cost apple nothing to move cut the superdrive from the MBPs, make them slightly slimmer, and sell them at a slightly lower/same price. but this would have taken away from the perceived "novelty" of the RMBP, which is really just a slimmer 15" with a smaller HD.

Again, extremely high density screen adds to the price, believe it or not!

11) however, they couldn't have raised the price with that move.

you're just repeating yourself now

12) thus, the stupid retina display comes in, which no one really needs. everyone was fine with the previous resolution. retina isn't even that far ahead from the resolution frontier - it's just that the old MBPs had poor resolution.

I'm am SO glad Jon Ive is in charge of design and not you!

 

[heisenberg123]

12 points that all say, the new rMBP is out of my budget.

You dont need an apple and apple is not obligated to make them fit your budget, its a luxury not a necessity.

Its not like apple raised the price of insulin so diabetics could not afford it.

They could of added zero features and new hardware and made them 5K if they thought it wouldnt decrease sales, since they had 1 month waits im sure sales were not effected by your accusations of un-human price increases.

I actually think its great they are holding off on eliminating the standard MBP for people who prefered the old design (ie space for 2 hard drives, or keeping the optical drive)

so essentially your argueement wants less choices than what apple is offering

 

[SphericalPear]

guess i was proved right by the recent 13 rmbp...

i hate to say it, but i guess i was proved right by the recent 13 rmbp...

my prediction for what will happen from now on:

1) the old MBP lines won't be updated regularly, letting their value depreciate while the prices will nominally stay the same. in real terms, of course, they will become a worse and worse deal as the industry moves on towards better specs.

2) in the end, we'll only have the rMBPs left, but now at a higher price point - ridiculously overpriced, as i predicted.

so i hope the apple fanboys downvoting my post will take a minute to reflect and maybe reconsider their rash reactions. most importantly, please come to realize that apple isn't a benevolent church - it's a profit-maximizing business that has managed to hold many of its customers hostage, almost like a monopolist. first, because of the singular platform and lack of compability, shielding it from competitive pressures. second, because of the loyality many customers hold, no matter what.

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the best thing: the rMBP isn't even significantly lighter or smaller than the cMBP is! haha. it's just a worse version, with a slightly better screen, at double the price with worse options. you can tell that NO ONE CLAPS during the disappointing presentation... maybe people will at some point wake up?

i hate to say it, but i guess i was proved right by the recent 13 rmbp...

my prediction for what will happen from now on:

1) the old MBP lines won't be updated regularly, letting their value depreciate while the prices will nominally stay the same. in real terms, of course, they will become a worse and worse deal as the industry moves on towards better specs.

2) in the end, we'll only have the rMBPs left, but now at a higher price point - ridiculously overpriced, as i predicted.

so i hope the apple fanboys downvoting my post will take a minute to reflect and maybe reconsider their rash reactions. most importantly, please come to realize that apple isn't a benevolent church - it's a profit-maximizing business that has managed to hold many of its customers hostage, almost like a monopolist. first, because of the singular platform and lack of compability, shielding it from competitive pressures. second, because of the loyality many customers hold, no matter what.

 

[makaveli559m]

SphericalPear was right on, on what he had predicted. The 13 inch model with Retina is nothing to be happy about, especially with Intel graphics pushing a high resolution screen? The guy that said you dont have to buy Apple go buy something else, is that your way to encourage people to stay with Apple? This might be my last Apple MacBook I dont see upgrading to anything newer because of the options they are giving out. I do use the Ethernet still and DVD drive I dont plan my self having to carry an extra bag of addons. As a computer tech I still rely on such technology as burning software and when wifi isnt around to be on Ethernet, no external adapter or hardware would justify a really really high price on a item that the most expensive thing on it is a Retina screen.

 

[SphericalPear]

sad but true indeed.

SphericalPear was right on, on what he had predicted. The 13 inch model with Retina is nothing to be happy about, especially with Intel graphics pushing a high resolution screen? The guy that said you dont have to buy Apple go buy something else, is that your way to encourage people to stay with Apple? This might be my last Apple MacBook I dont see upgrading to anything newer because of the options they are giving out. I do use the Ethernet still and DVD drive I dont plan my self having to carry an extra bag of addons. As a computer tech I still rely on such technology as burning software and when wifi isnt around to be on Ethernet, no external adapter or hardware would justify a really really high price on a item that the most expensive thing on it is a Retina screen.

 

[tdmd]

13" rMBP ($1699)
2.5GHz dual-core Intel Core i5 processor (Ivy Bridge)
Intel HD Graphics 4000
8GB of 1600MHz DDR3L onboard memory
128GB SSD
720p FaceTime HD camera
1699

13" cMBP ($1199)
2.5GHz dual-core Intel Core i5 processor (Ivy Bridge), yes the new ones are Ivy Bridge, so basically the same processor and graphics chip
Intel HD Graphics 4000

4GB of 1600MHz DDR3 memory (upgrade to 8gb to make it equivalent to the rMBP specs would be $40)

500GB 5400-rpm hard drive (upgrade to 128gb to make it equivalent to rMBP specs would be ~$100 or cheaper if you look around. However, many people who replace the hard drive to SSD keep the original and either buy an optibay caddy ($12) or an external enclosure, so theres a $50 value in keeping the original drive). Also, you can make the superdrive an external drive so theres some value there too.

720p FaceTime HD camera

----

So excluding the retina screen, we would have to pay $140 extra to make the cMBP equivalent to the rMBP in specs. Keep in mind, when the SSD is replaced, you have an extra 500gb laptop hard drive that you can use as a secondary drive (saved ~$60) so, 140-60 = $80. You also have a superdrive but I'm not going to factor that in because some of us don't use it (although apple will sell you one for $80). Add in the upgradability factor for the cMBP (which is HIGHLY valuable, because 1-2 yrs from now, those with the rMBP will be stuck with their hard drive capacity, whereas those with the cMBP can upgrade their SSDs a lot cheaper than today's prices). One could argue that the SSDs in the rMBP would be upgradeable via OWC modules, but we all know those modules are expensive compared to the intel, ocz, crucial SSDs we see today. Also, cMBP owners can upgrade the RAM to 16gb, whereas the rMBP is limited to 8gb. So my point is the extra $140 you spend on the cMBP to make the specs equivalent to the rMBP (minus the retina screen of course), is more than accounted for in what you save.

So yeah, the $500 premium is mainly for the retina screen. cMBP PPI = 113, rMBP PPI = 227, a difference of 114 PPI, thats $4.39 per additional PPI if you want to think of it that way. Sure things look amazing on the retina screen. But it's not like things look horrible on the cMBP.

And it's not really about what you can and can't afford. I thought about this a lot, and it seems like $500 for a nicer screen and no room for upgrades is not worth it for me.

 

[iLukeJoseph]

Making a product lighter/thinner/and more powerful will always drive up the price (at first). And then add an extremely high resolution screen? I will bet money Apple's profit margin on the first run is not near as high as most think.

Maybe some of you that are complaining about the high price are young? Don't remember when a 42" plasma TV was $15,000. Don't remember the large price difference between a 720p set and a 1080p set (when 1080p first came out).

What Apple did with the "r" display is insane. First getting LG and Samsung to shove that many pixels in that small of a display. And then the R&D to actually make it work?

Considering all the changes and the display, the price is very good. And will get better (only by a bit, Apple does love their profits, but that is simple business).

 

[terraphantm]

Making a product lighter/thinner/and more powerful will always drive up the price (at first). And then add an extremely high resolution screen? I will bet money Apple's profit margin on the first run is not near as high as most think.

Maybe some of you that are complaining about the high price are young? Don't remember when a 42" plasma TV was $15,000. Don't remember the large price difference between a 720p set and a 1080p set (when 1080p first came out).

What Apple did with the "r" display is insane. First getting LG and Samsung to shove that many pixels in that small of a display. And then the R&D to actually make it work?

Considering all the changes and the display, the price is very good. And will get better (only by a bit, Apple does love their profits, but that is simple business).

All good points- except the pricing of the 15" rMBP undermines the argument. A 13" rMBP with an i7 and 256GB costs the same as the base 15". The base 15 comes with 2 extra CPU cores, a discrete GPU, a larger (more expensive) battery, and a higher resolution screen. There's no reason they should both cost the same

Also worth noting that a 15" rMBP is actually cheaper than a 15" cMBP equipped to the same specs (or as close as possible). The 13" rMBP is more expensive than the 13" cMBP no matter how you slice it.

 

[Naimfan]

Considering all the changes and the display, the price is very good.

I can't agree. The price is exorbitant for what you get and don't get. I've had one now for a few days, and it's going back this coming Saturday - the price for what you get is excessive.

 

[Rhinoevans]

The 256GB SSD costs $500 extra in the base MBP 15", plus another $100 for the 8GB RAM upgrade. That's $600 over the base MBP. If you're going for those features (and buying from Apple) then the MBPR is a $200 savings with a retina display bonus.

Honestly the retina price seems like a good deal when compared to the MBP.

Actually, it is just a RIPOFF for the cMBP. Why charge that much to add those items?

So it is not that the rMBP is a good deal, it is absurd pricing for upgrades on the cMBP line!

Which I just bought (cMBP).

The rMBP is $2400 with 16G (and a specila order form APple)

The cMBP $1799 , OWC 16G ram $100 (on sale) and Samsung 830 256G $155 (on sale Amazon)

So it is actually $346 cheaper than the rMBP $2400-2054= $346

Plus I still have the 500G HD.

And I can upgrade to a bigger drive (512) and still be less expensive than the rMBP!!!

I had no need of the retina display. Have it on my ipad, and although nice compared to iPad 2, not really that big of a deal. Can I see the difference, yes, but revolutionary, NO.

 

[Rhinoevans]

i hate to say it, but i guess i was proved right by the recent 13 rmbp...



2) in the end, we'll only have the rMBPs left, but now at a higher price point - ridiculously overpriced, as i predicted.

I hope this is not true, I think the perfect MBP is the rMBP WITHOUT the retina screen, 16G ram and a 512 SSD. Now thats a powerful machine

Really like the thin and light, but not everyone need the retina display, so I predict the next cMBP will the the thin and light body style.

Or, you are right and it is deleted and everything is RETINA!

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The main reason the old model is still there is because some people like the HDDs higher storage capacity and use ethernet/firewire/disk drive. It's also upgradeable - something important to a lot of users these days.

The rMBP is for the people who have already moved away from these legacy devices (e.g CDs) and are willing to opt for a smaller SSD.

They made them as similar as possible, but without soldering/gluing in the parts (removes ability to upgrade) and removing the disk drive, they cannot slim the current model down anymore.

Wrong. I have moved away from legacy devices, but just dont want the retina display.

Just purchased the cMBP, not for the legacy items, but for the ability to add more ram and larger SSD in the near future.

I was unable to order a 16G Retina (only standard config MBP available overseas at military exchange), so I had no choice but to get the cMBP and order some extra ram. I like the thin and light and HDMI and no Cat5 slot, just not crazy over the retina. Does it look nice, yes, but for what I do, not necessary.

By the way, I LOVE my cMBP.

 

[mrsir2009]

How did the OP get 71 downvotes on his first post? The downvote button has been gone for ages, and this thread is obviously recent, due to the fact that it's about the recently released rMBP.

 

[XboxMySocks]

Don't expect the flat 13" MBP to cost 1100 - it'll be 1600 up, and stay that high, with the old "quasiwhite" mbp disappearing or becoming more and more outdated.

It's weird how accurate this statement is.

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How did the OP get 71 downvotes on his first post? The downvote button has been gone for ages, and this thread is obviously recent, due to the fact that it's about the recently released rMBP.

June 23rd?

 

[iLukeJoseph]

All good points- except the pricing of the 15" rMBP undermines the argument. A 13" rMBP with an i7 and 256GB costs the same as the base 15". The base 15 comes with 2 extra CPU cores, a discrete GPU, a larger (more expensive) battery, and a higher resolution screen. There's no reason they should both cost the same

Also worth noting that a 15" rMBP is actually cheaper than a 15" cMBP equipped to the same specs (or as close as possible). The 13" rMBP is more expensive than the 13" cMBP no matter how you slice it.

You shouldn't compare the r 13 and r 15, in what they cost apple to build. I think the 15 is the best bang for buck. But I would not be surprised at all if the rMBP 13 costs as much or even a bit more than the 15" for apple to "build".

I would love to see the cost to build sheet. Till that comes out we are all incorrect. I mean what if apple is only making 20-30% on the "r" models?

Don't forget about the R&D, which yes the consumer should pay for (in part).

I know some of you probably don't. But will say it again. The price difference between 1080p and 720p displays when 1080p was the "big thing" was crazy. Even now with some 4k displays compared to 1080p.

Like with most things in life, those that complain about the price of something, cannot afford it. That is not meant to be a knock or put one down.

I am a small business owner and run into it quite often. We are the best at what we do in my state. We use the highest quality product (costs me more), and have the highest skilled employees (again costs me more). So my pricing is higher than some of my competitors.

I get calls from potential clients asking for cheaper prices etc.... And I can't, as I have certain profit margins I refuse to go under. Doesn't matter if it is 20% or 200%.

 

[Saturn1217]

I kind of see where the OP is coming from...

I kind of understand the OP although I don't agree 100%

I think retina screens are a big enough technological challenge that Apple had to design a new macbook pro rather than just add it to the old ones. The increase in battery etc. made it necessary. And honestly we never would have seen some of the other improvements (HDMI out new cooling design) without a completely new model. I have no issue with Apple coming out with retina Macbook Pros as a new model and I can even understand the price increase up to a point (should have had 256gb in the base 13inch rMBP).

BUT

What I do take issue with and what I think some others on this forum are annoyed with is Apple usually their amazing marketing hype to make retina the new gold-standard of what people should want in laptop computers.

Think about it...before everyone was working towards shoving the most computing power into the smallest package with the longest battery life. But Apple (and subsequently the rest of the industry) realized increasing computing power was starting to have diminishing returns. Average consumers just don't need it.

I actually really like that Apple focuses on the whole package with their notebooks. They make sure you get a great trackpad, good battery life, solid chassis and now fast storage in your laptop. But now they seem to being doing with resolution what the rest of the industry was doing with cpu usage. Aka giving the consumer way more pixels than they could ever possibly appreciate which would be fine except that it comes with draw backs in both performance and battery life.

The 13inch rMBP with a 1440x900 IPS display, slightly more storage and a slightly lower price tag would be a GREAT machine for far more users than the retina MBP we have now. It would have less issues with app compatibility, better battery life, and no software hiccups with the UI. But Apple is counting on the wonderful marketing of "retina" to upsell a lot of people on a computer that is essentially a regular 13inch MBP with that screen and charge a huge premium for it.

Now of course that is Apple's business and as the consumer really all you can do is buy the computer or not buy it. Just though I'd through in my 2 cents

 

[iLukeJoseph]

I kind of understand the OP although I don't agree 100%

I think retina screens are a big enough technological challenge that Apple had to design a new macbook pro rather than just add it to the old ones. The increase in battery etc. made it necessary. And honestly we never would have seen some of the other improvements (HDMI out new cooling design) without a completely new model. I have no issue with Apple coming out with retina Macbook Pros as a new model and I can even understand the price increase up to a point (should have had 256gb in the base 13inch rMBP).

BUT

What I do take issue with and what I think some others on this forum are annoyed with is Apple usually their amazing marketing hype to make retina the new gold-standard of what people should want in laptop computers.

Think about it...before everyone was working towards shoving the most computing power into the smallest package with the longest battery life. But Apple (and subsequently the rest of the industry) realized increasing computing power was starting to have diminishing returns. Average consumers just don't need it.

I actually really like that Apple focuses on the whole package with their notebooks. They make sure you get a great trackpad, good battery life, solid chassis and now fast storage in your laptop. But now they seem to being doing with resolution what the rest of the industry was doing with cpu usage. Aka giving the consumer way more pixels than they could ever possibly appreciate which would be fine except that it comes with draw backs in both performance and battery life.

The 13inch rMBP with a 1440x900 IPS display, slightly more storage and a slightly lower price tag would be a GREAT machine for far more users than the retina MBP we have now. It would have less issues with app compatibility, better battery life, and no software hiccups with the UI. But Apple is counting on the wonderful marketing of "retina" to upsell a lot of people on a computer that is essentially a regular 13inch MBP with that screen and charge a huge premium for it.

Now of course that is Apple's business and as the consumer really all you can do is buy the computer or not buy it. Just though I'd through in my 2 cents

Gotta disagree with you there. Apple is not just shoving a ton of pixels into a display cause it is "more than we need". It is part of their retina "movement" (for lack of a better word). And retina is not just a high resolution screen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retina_Display

 

[terraphantm]

You shouldn't compare the r 13 and r 15, in what they cost apple to build. I think the 15 is the best bang for buck. But I would not be surprised at all if the rMBP 13 costs as much or even a bit more than the 15" for apple to "build".

I would love to see the cost to build sheet. Till that comes out we are all incorrect. I mean what if apple is only making 20-30% on the "r" models?

Don't forget about the R&D, which yes the consumer should pay for (in part).

I know some of you probably don't. But will say it again. The price difference between 1080p and 720p displays when 1080p was the "big thing" was crazy. Even now with some 4k displays compared to 1080p.

Like with most things in life, those that complain about the price of something, cannot afford it. That is not meant to be a knock or put one down.

I am a small business owner and run into it quite often. We are the best at what we do in my state. We use the highest quality product (costs me more), and have the highest skilled employees (again costs me more). So my pricing is higher than some of my competitors.

I get calls from potential clients asking for cheaper prices etc.... And I can't, as I have certain profit margins I refuse to go under. Doesn't matter if it is 20% or 200%.

I would be extremely surprised if the 13" costs anywhere near as much as the 15" to build. It just doesn't add up. Honestly, asides for the screen, the 13" shouldn't cost much more to build than the 13" MBA.

There's no reason the 13" should cost more to build than the 15". The 15" requires more materials, has a larger (physically and in terms of resolution) display, has a more expensive CPU, a proper GPU, larger battery, and better speakers. The 13" isn't so minituarized so as to make the actual engineering any more difficult. They're built on the same process, and the 13" has smaller (read: less expensive) components in general. In fact they were able to save so much space that there's a very large empty area under the HDD - clearly space wasn't really an issue.


R&D was likely shared between the 13" and 15" (the most expensive part was probably implementing HiDPI mode properly, and that's the same between the two).

 

[RealEyes]

I love how no one mentions the form factor.

 

[Mr MM]

I would be extremely surprised if the 13" costs anywhere near as much as the 15" to build. It just doesn't add up. Honestly, asides for the screen, the 13" shouldn't cost much more to build than the 13" MBA.

There's no reason the 13" should cost more to build than the 15". The 15" requires more materials, has a larger (physically and in terms of resolution) display, has a more expensive CPU, a proper GPU, larger battery, and better speakers. The 13" isn't so minituarized so as to make the actual engineering any more difficult. They're built on the same process, and the 13" has smaller (read: less expensive) components in general. In fact they were able to save so much space that there's a very large empty area under the HDD - clearly space wasn't really an issue.


R&D was likely shared between the 13" and 15" (the most expensive part was probably implementing HiDPI mode properly, and that's the same between the two).

there are different lines of production. That adds to the cost. Im not saying that its at a good price, it isnt.