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Apple Unable to Find iPhone Partner in Europe?

Goldfinger said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again. A SINGLE exclusive carrier is impossible in Europe.

A) As stated before, in Belgium and Finland locked phones or phones that are sold through a carrier are illegall. While not completely true for Finland apparantly it still holds true for GSM phones, the iPhone is GSM (no 3G). Of course Apple could decide not to sell their iPhone in those countries. But I doubt that they would do that.
And in many countries it's impossible to keep people in their contracts. The fees for getting out of your contract are mostly very low or inexistant as opposed to the fees in the US.

B) There is no single carrier that has presence throughout Europe. Vodafone UK is NOT the same as Vodafone Italy or any other Vodafone. They have the same parent company but they are independant companies. And even if they are there are still a lot of countries that have different carrieres. Every country has to be negotiated separately.

C) 60% uses pre-paid in Europe. And up to 90% in Italy. Those people are NOT interested in a locked phone that comes with a contract and a fixed montly fee.

D) Lacking features such as MMS, 3G and Flash (does it do Java ?). And a price point that is unjustified when looking at the features. No matter how effin great the user interface may be.

The risk of the iPhone failing in Europe is VERY real.

This news comes to no surprise to me. Apple really needs to rethink their European strategy. AppleTV, probably close to zero sales in europe (no SCART; hello ?). Advertising presence ? Close to zero. Market share, very small compared to the US. They're really not getting it that Europe is very different to the US. I doesn't surprise me that they are seen as very arrogant because they are indeed very arrogant.
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-The euro iPhone will be 3G, according to Jobs himself.
-lack of MMS is not going to bother anyone if you can send emails over 3G or WiFi
-Flash, we don't have a definite answer on that. "Not yet" is what I've come to understand.
-Java? Oh yes, Java.. I remember that...
 
dscottbuch said:
First of all there IS 3G. It has been said consistently from day one that the European release, at the end of this year, WILL be 3G. So this 'speculation' is way off.
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Can you show me where this has been stated as fact? I am aware that there is a possibility they might add it by the time we get it, and Jobs has said vague things regarding 3G in the future, but I didn't know it was for certain for the Euro release.
Second, you just compared a subsidized phone price (price with contract) with unsubsidized, which is also ridiculous as one just hides the cost of the other. What is the unsubsidized cost of these phones?
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The iPhone is an exclusive with AT&T on a long expensive contract and will still cost a fortune. I guarantee the SE W960 for example on any decent contact over here will cost next to nothing, while if Apple follow the same business model as they have in the US in Europe the iPhone will cost a mighty sum in comparison. The cost of the SE offline is irrelevant.
 
Cloudsurfer said:
I'm not surprised. Apple appearently hasn't a clue how the European phone operating system works. What's the problem, anyway, with releasing a sim-less phone? Because the visual voicemail feature won't work with all operators?

Welcome to Europe, Apple.
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I actually think they know that market very well and don't want to be blocked by operator terms.
 
samh004 said:
Serves them right if they're still asking for revenue sharing, what a load of bollocks. Just as the article said, just because it's a hot product, doesn't mean Apple should screw everyone else over.

If it all fails, it'll be their fault, no one elses.

The product might be perfectly fine, but because of their heavy-handed tactics... 🙄

I don't care about visual voice mail so much, if it can't happen here in Asia or Australia, it's not the end of the world for me. I'll live. Perhaps some day it will work, but it doesn't have to be a launch feature, as I can understand that it's going to be tricky to implement for the carriers.
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And the carriers are not screwing us over??
My cellphone costs more then my phone bill.
I don't even get internet on it.
Cellphone carriers make money hand over fist...why not give some back to the phone makers.
 
Apple will have to be much more careful with the European market which is a mature saturated market. Someone said 50m cellphones in the US. Is that right? We have more or less that number just in the UK. The Scandinavian countries where gsm started have about one phone per citizen, so the overall European market is hundreds of millions of phones. The present iphone is a dead duck in Europe anyway - no 3g no front facing camera etc etc. The interface is great but is that enough? People will just unlock them however Apple sell them. Most phones can be unlocked for about £10.00 in the UK. As for the issue of EU regulation, the EU may be a loose conglomerate but it has very powerful competition rules as Microsoft and other large companies like VW have discovered. The fines are usually calculated as a proportion of annual turnover, not profit, so the amounts get very juicy indeed. This is where Apple is in great danger of coming unstuck by having different itunes stores/ prices in different EU countries, but that's another story.
 
MrSmith said:
I need it spelled out. Is this problem because Apple are acting differently in Europe than America, or becasue the Europeans are acting tougher?
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neither. it's because apple (and a most other u.s. companys) work in europe as they would in the u.s. which just doesn't fly here (i'm in europe).

it starts with them treating europe as one thing when in reality the differences between the european countries are huge. let me give you an example: you know delicious library right?
now in that apps preferences, you can tell it which amazon store to look things up from. for example amazon.co.uk or amazon.jp or amazon.de and so forth.

now you might be scanning 2 japanese books, then a few cds from england and so on; and every time you need to switch the stores in preferences because the app might not find your items or tag english items with japanese info...

so, making the store location a preference instead of something you can switch fast is typical for american thinking. i don't blame them.
they must think "if you live in the u.s. you buy at amazon.com, if you live in england you buy from amazon.co.uk..."

in europe, people that buy from all over the world are much more common. i myself buy books, cds and dvd's from japan, germany, switzerland, great brittain the u.s.a. and so on...

what it boils down to is that you have to think much more outside the box for the european market. also the phone market works much different.

when 85% of ALL people (including seniors and children) have cell phones and the network coverage your country is 98% with 3 carriers fighting each other (of which only one is in other european countries) you get a much different view of the way apple is handling the iphone.

any of you remember how long it took them to open the iTunes store in all the european countries?

my only hope is, they sell it open here...
 
Isidore said:
Apple will have to be much more careful with the European market which is a mature saturated market. Someone said 50m cellphones in the US. Is that right? We have more or less that number just in the UK. The Scandinavian countries where gsm started have about one phone per citizen, so the overall European market is hundreds of millions of phones. The present iphone is a dead duck in Europe anyway - no 3g no front facing camera etc etc. The interface is great but is that enough? People will just unlock them however Apple sell them. Most phones can be unlocked for about £10.00 in the UK. As for the issue of EU regulation, the EU may be a loose conglomerate but it has very powerful competition rules as Microsoft and other large companies like VW have discovered. The fines are usually calculated as a proportion of annual turnover, not profit, so the amounts get very juicy indeed. This is where Apple is in great danger of coming unstuck by having different itunes stores/ prices in different EU countries, but that's another story.
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There are more mobile phones than people in the UK - which puts the figure in excess of 60 million.
 
Evangelion said:
Just sell the device directly to consumers, and let them choose the operator they want. THAT is the correct way of doing things! Visual voicemail? I don't care one bit about it.
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I agree! It angers me as to how much control the cell phone companies place on phone developers and I for one am happy that Apple is sticking to their plan. I want to see phone companies offering plans and to stop selling and branding phones.
 
edesignuk said:
Can you show me where this has been stated as fact? I am aware that there is a possibility they might add it by the time we get it, and Jobs has said vague things regarding 3G in the future, but I didn't know it was for certain for the Euro release.
The iPhone is an exclusive with AT&T on a long expensive contract and will still cost a fortune. I guarantee the SE W960 for example on any decent contact over here will cost next to nothing, while if Apple follow the same business model as they have in the US in Europe the iPhone will cost a mighty sum in comparison. The cost of the SE offline is irrelevant.
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1) Just look at the January Keynote, it's state definitively there.
2) We don't know what the ATT deal is. Apple removed the contract requirement from their ads. We don't know what contract will be required and what the cost will be.

Why is the cost of SE offline irrelevant. Its the only way to compare 'costs'.
 
Nokia N95 does more and is a mature product from a co that's been doing it for years. The mobile Mac OS X is going to be killer over the next few years on various small devices but the iphone looks like more Apple tat that'll be flakey and undurable, epsecially in Rev A form.
 
s10 said:
I actually think they know that market very well and don't want to be blocked by operator terms.
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They would not have ANY terms in case of selling unlocked phone. Thats the right way in my opinion. Its European market for gods sake!!
 
I live Scandinavia. I have a GSM phone and a 3G phone both from SonyEricsson. The 3G is a w880i.

I don't have that much interested in the iPhone besides the interface and the bragging rights. But I will never buy a phone with a 2 year contract! No way! The contract here is only 6 months.

Sorry, but in the mobile phone market US is far behind Europe.
 
dscottbuch said:
1) Just look at the January Keynote, it's state definitively there.
2) We don't know what the ATT deal is. Apple removed the contract requirement from their ads. We don't know what contract will be required and what the cost will be.
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I don't recall this, not saying it's not true but I certainly think if it was the case that it was fact that the iPhone would have 3G for European launch half of this ongoing thread wouldn't even be happening. Do you have a link to a transcript where they said the European launch of the iPhone would 100% include 3G?

Why is the cost of SE offline irrelevant. Its the only way to compare 'costs'.
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Nonsense. The iPhone has been stated as costing $499/599 on what is likely to be a 2 year contract. The SE (here in the UK at least) will likely be available on several different networks on 12/18 months plans and the cost of the handset itself will probably range from free-£100 depending on the monthly cost of the contact, with the price falling rapidly after a couple of months.

Comparing the iPhone tied into a contact and the SE tied in to a contract is the valid argument.
 
Not too much to worry about.

Sales in the U.S. will make or break this.
If European carriers see that AT&T is raking in tons of money and sales off of this, then one will come around. If its a dud in the U.S., then no carrier will give into Apple.

The Almighty dollar, euro, sterling, or seashell (or whatever currency your country has) rules the world.
 
gnasher729 said:
What you have to realise is that Apple needs only _one_ partner, not two. A second partner wouldn't add more than ten percent to the revenue for Apple. On the other hand, having an exclusive like AT&T is very, very valuable for that company, because people will _switch_ from other providers to AT&T.

That means Apple is indeed offering the iPhone to everyone, and it will end up with the single highest bidder. Verizon wasn't the highest bidder. So what do you think will the say? "We wanted the iPhone, but AT&T made a better offer", or "We rejected the iPhone due to Apple's demands"? Of course they are saying that they didn't want the iPhone, because saying otherwise means losing face.

In Europe, exactly the same thing will happen: One company will be selling the iPhone, and all the others will swear that they had no interest whatsoever.
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but the difference is that europe is not one country, it's a continent. i'm not even sure there is one phone company operating in all the european countries. plus, as i have learnt in this thread, there are vastly different laws in each country as to locking and subsidies.
 
dakis said:
who said that? except for same rumor sites?
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I don't think that Apple has categorically stated that the European iPhone will be 3G from day one. If I recall correctly, the comment was that 3G is a possibility in the future.
 
Philsy said:
I don't think that Apple has categorically stated that the European iPhone will be 3G from day one. If I recall correctly, the comment was that 3G is a possibility in the future.
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That's what I recall.

dscottbuch, I think it is you that is way off with your 'facts'.
 
nubero said:
neither. it's because apple (and a most other u.s. companys) work in europe as they would in the u.s.
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no, they don't. At first, they always ignore the European market and make everything USA-only. In the meantime, European companies copy their products and services and by the time they finally decide they can recycle some of their old stuff in "old Europe" as well, other companies have already taken a large piece of the cake and the US-companies fail in Europe. After that, they tell their bosses the European market isn't worth it.

Think that never happened before? Just look at what happened with the iTunes Music Store in Germany. Germans had to wait over a year until Apple eventually decided to launch the service there - claiming that they were having trouble signing deals in Europe. Strangely however, Musicload.de managed to get all those contracts signed in no time, established a large online shop and is now way ahead of the iTMS. Apple never managed to gain these market shares back.

Same thing's gonna happen with the iPhone now. One would think they've learned their lesson by now. If they had negotiated the contracts at the same time in Europe and in the US, the phone could start everywhere at the same time - instead they now give the competition in Europe a head-start and in a year or so, when the phone becomes available over here, Nokia, SE, Motorola (if they don't make the same mistakes) etc. will already have their touch-screen smart-/music-phones that can do both UMTS and MMS well established.
 
Philsy said:
There are more mobile phones than people in the UK - which puts the figure in excess of 60 million.
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I think that even in Italy there are more mobile phones than people. Many peoples - like my wife - have two phones with two different operators because phone calls to people in the same network cost usually less. So e.g. one for calling (and be called by) your mother and another for calling (and be called by) your friends... In the past someone offered a phone with two sim cards. But without success because usually mobile phones are changed quite frequently and people use ther old phone for their second card.
 
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