Apple Unable to Find iPhone Partner in Europe?

[Yixian]

Welcome to the mobile phone industry Apple.

The US market is small fries. Their years behind the times and people are far less interested in cellphones than the mobile CRAZED Europeans and East Asians.

Here in Europe we're used to paying sweet FA for top of the line brand new smartphones thanks to heavy subsidies from contracts. Everyone still makes their money, but through different deals.

99% of Europeans that buy phone on contract get them for absolutely nothing, and that goes from little Motorola PEBLs to the latest high end Nokia smartphones.


For once I'm actually proud of our carriers - they shouldn't take this bollocks from anyone, not even Apple. Apple needs to play by the rules like everybody else, so we can get our stinking phones!

 

[inkswamp]

What I still don't get is why Visual Voicemail was made server-side dependent in the 1st place...

While I'm not a programmer (I don't even play one on TV...), I know a few people that are, and from my talks with them... why can't the iPhone do it like this...

1. iPhone sees what network it is on (SIM card provides this info)
2. iPhone has scripts specific for each network to access the network's voicemail system.
3. iPhone caches and encodes in AAC the voicemails onto internal storage... tags each file/voicemail with caller-ID info.
4. Visual Voicemail feature allows you to flip through these voicemails just like we've been shown.

This would allow the iPhone to be used on ANY GSM network...

What am I missing?


just my $0.02US

I'm betting it's a lot more complicated than that.

I've never worked with voicemail systems, but I have done a lot of data and database work. Assuming there are parallels, there may be issues with trying to do it this way. When you move data from one system to another, you lose the inherent interaction that the first system might have provided so you have to recreate it in the new location if you require it. And in order to recreate that you must be able to get all the fields associated with the item in question and know how it all works together.

That probably sounds complicated, but here's what I mean. A lot of voicemail systems have options attached to the call while you're listening (you know, the "press 9 to call this person back" sort of thing.) In order for a phone to provide this functionality locally, it would also have to bring down and manage a lot of meta-data about each call (caller id, phone number, time, etc.) not just the voice recording/data. The phone would have to know what each of those fields are and how to use them.

Maybe that's not too complicated to do from a programming perspective, but now think about the possibility that each phone service provider has their own proprietary fields associated with the voice data. The phone would have to know all of them to do this universally.

Then consider functionality that might need to interact with the phone service again. Say, you have a feature for a user to block a certain caller and they can do it from a voicemail. You'd probably want that in sent back to the service provider and implemented there, but oops... this is all local now. The calls have been taken down from the remote server and presumably erased from there so from that perspective, this call doesn't exist anymore so how do you invoke an option like "block this caller" without working with each service provider and asking them to open their system to you and provide you a way to set this.

Which of course brings you back to how Apple did it in the first place.

 

[kroko]

"Apple Unable to Find iPhone Partner in Europe"
they TOTALLY miss the point. the customer.
even if apple found a partner, it would be unable to find iPhone CUSTOMERS in europe. i can't believe, they still don't get that in europe people don't buy locked phones- i got my own phone and go to whatever provider i want to/switch them/buy a new phone whenever i want to and swap sim card. thankfully i don't live in us. and apple's ego is silly, if it thinks i live for their products. thus i wouldn't buy a locked phone, i never did. neither my friends and family. and i can state that about 90% of mobile phone customers in europe. 10% go for those "i just need that blingbling social-status-growing-my-dick-longer-iPhone no matter what". if apple answer to this would be "aww ok, we don't need that Latvian/Baltic States/Eaurope custumer", it would show where "great products for people" go and how bad knowledge they have about tech market here. including mobile phones. we are famous for utilizing the most expensive out there. the coverage in our small countries is 1000%- i can talk 20m beneath the ground as well as in the very deep forest. anywhere.
if apple wants to participate in this growing market, they should change their strategy. the only way it would work and they would have control over market is to sell iphone unlocked through apple resellers here. period.

 

[jimN]

It doesn't make any sense for the companies not to agree with their demands. Being the exclusive iPhone carrier guarantees new customers and lengthy contracts, regardless of the demands that Apple makes of them. Looks to me like a win-win.

 

[typerlover]

It doesn't make any sense for the companies not to agree with their demands. Being the exclusive iPhone carrier guarantees new customers and lengthy contracts, regardless of the demands that Apple makes of them. Looks to me like a win-win.

It makes sense when the companies are fully aware that customers are UNWILLING to sign for long contracts there.

 

[daneoni]

It makes sense when the companies are fully aware that customers are UNWILLING to sign for long contracts there.

Hear hear, i sure as heck wont sign a 2 yr contract and still pay a significant amount for a phone...heck i avoid 18month contracts with free phones like a plague. No phone is that special

 

[Jim Campbell]

Maybe if Apple was European they'd want it and bend over backwards for it.

Don't be ridiculous. This story (assuming it's true) suggests that Apple have failed to grasp the monumental difference between the US and European mobile phone markets.

Chief amongst these is: we don't like paying for our handsets. At all. If you're prepared to accept an 18 month lock-in to a contract, you'll get an all-singing, all-dancing phone thrown in for your trouble.

If you want an absolutely dog's-danglies PDA-style phone, you may have pay a one-off of roughly £100 at the start of your contract, and then you're good to go.

I fear that asking anyone in this market to pay £300+ for a phone, no matter how feature-rich and innovative, and then expecting them to agree to a contract as well ... I can see that being a hard sell in the UK and mainland Europe.

I'm inclined to think that SIM-free might be the way to go over here, but that would assume that Apple is making enough profit per unit on hardware for the business model to be viable without kickbacks from the network provider.

Cheers!

Jim

 

[weckart]

Region locked DVD player? I wouldn't know where to look in England!

Are you serious? Try Tesco, Sainsbury Asda-Walmart or in fact any major retailer. Most DVD players are still sold locked to region 2, particularly the major brands of players.

This does not mean, however, that they are unlockable, as I would assume that most can still be unlocked either by keying in a code on the remote or by loading firmware via a DVD. However, you may get unlucky and end up with an unlockable model, much like the matsushita dvd drives on the Apple laptops.

 

[123]

I hope that they don't find a partner.

1) Voicemail, my ass.

2) They had to cripple (IM + 3rd party wise) the phone just because of their at&t deal. For the customer it can only be better if Apple don't have to give in to a carrier's demands.

 

[Baumi]

Starting to worry about Apple

Apple's products routinely don't do as well over here (Germany) as they do in the US. Sometimes it's because of outside factors, sometimes it's because Apple doesn't get its sales strategies straight for different markets.

Over here in Germany, Macs are still an extreme niche product. That's starting to change slowly, but really very slowly.

Even though the iPod is selling okay (although it's not as hot as in the US), iTunes is not the download market leader.

Apple TV will pretty much remain unimportant here for the time being, as there are no iTunes TV shows to download and we have currently basically no wide-spread HDTV broadcasts in Germany, so very few people would even have a TV fit to use with the device.

As for the iPhone: I don't see many people switching carriers because of it. I know I wouldn't, even though I'm both a Mac fan (2 Macs, 3 iPods, no Windows ) and a heavy cell phone user. (No landline, 2 cell phones with different contracts.) For me, the iPhone would be a step forward in terms of UI interaction, but a step backwards in terms of flexibility. (Lots of small apps on my Nokias that do cool things: Location-based services, C64 emulation, divx player, etc.) While the iPhone could do all of that, it won't until Apple opens it up.

Still, I'd be buying it as a geek toy, but not if that means having to switch to a less attractive pricing plan. For less tech-savvy people, there's even less reason to buy it: Apple's name doesn't have the clout it has in the US, and most people here base their buying decisions on price rather than brand, meaning they're unlikely to pay a premium for a phone with a cool UI but without some features that are standard on cheaper phones.

You know, with the rather disappointing keynote, the bugfest that is Safari for Windows (it'll crash on non-English systems, because Apple's engineers didn't copy over a couple of files from one folder into another - that just shouldn't happen when you distribute a product to a worldwide audience, beta or not) and the strange iPhone requirements (why do I need an iTunes account to set it up?), I'm starting to feel like the kool-aid's not working for me anymore.

I'd love to be excited about a new Apple product, I'd love be blown away by some cool new device, but currently I'm just getting more and more critical about them with each announcement I read. Let's hope they've got some cool hardware in the pipeline which they're just holding back until after the iPhone launch.

Baumi

 

[jwkay]

If Apple is trying to treat Europe as one market, that will also be problematical - as posts illustrate, there are big differences between the mobile phone markets in different parts of Europe.

Here in Norway, maximum binding contract length is 12 months; but even that can be broken (for a sliding-scale fee) whenever the customer wants. Phones can be locked, but after a year the service provider is obliged to provide you with the unlock code (for free). You can also choose to unlock the phone within the contract period for a sliding-scale fee.

Phone companies don't have their own shops. Phones and call packages are sold online, in electronics stores, supermarkets etc. Phones are not exclusive to certain providers and all phones can be purchased without a call package.

Norwegians (particularly young people) get through phones very quickly just to have the latest cool device. 2.35 million new mobiles were sold here in 2005 - a high figure for a country with a population of 4 million, and where mobile useage has been an everyday part of life for people since the 1990s.

 

[Igantius]

The deal to offer the iPhone in the UK was agreed and signed earlier this year - I'm not able to say anthing more than that at the moment though...

 

[dubhe]

I was looking in to buying a Palm Treo 680 to tide me over until the iPhone is launched and had been around long enough to work properly.

But, none of the four main networks in the UK offer the Treo, I would have had to buy it from an electrical retailer (for around £299) and insert my own sim. That was still an option for me, as it meant no new 18 month contract, but I bought a Nokia E61 on eBay instead...

Maybe apple would offer the iPhone like this and let us (the consumer) worry about getting it on the network.

With regard to voicemail, the normal style would work fine, I can access that from my home phone.

 

[Eraserhead]

Ok, this is starting to become pointless.
Sweden is a member of the EU but has retained its own currency. So are Poland and Hungary etc. The EU is a very loose conglomerate of independent countries, each with huge differences in their political systems and laws.

I'm willing to bet that Swiss laws are much more similar to the few EU-wide laws than those in Hungary or Poland are compared to EU standards.

Except that Poland and Hungary are in the EU. Switzerland isn't in the EU, but is a European Country, it probably has similar laws to other EU countries, in the UK you can have locked phones but you can get them legally unlocked.

3 - not a market leader, but with deep pockets - so possible

They are only 3G .

The problems for the Europeans with Apple are probably:

No 3G.
The operators in the UK at least paid £22 billion for 3G licences, they aren't going to have a flagship phone which isn't 3G and gets extra services.

Apple doesn't want to give the phone away.
Every phone (practically) is available for free on a UK contract, only the most expensive phones aren't free, FWIW on Orange the N95 costs £90 on £35/month, and £130 on £30/month. These are all on 12 month contracts, you can also get £100 cashback if you have an 18 month contract but that's it.

If Apple want to sell the iPhone for £400 on contract they are not going to get their way.

 

[dakis]

sim. That was still an option for me, as it meant no new 18 month contract, but I bought a Nokia E61 on eBay instead...

And you made a good choice - I recently sold my Treo 680 and went for an E61 myself. Couldn't be happier with the Nokia. The Treo 680 crashed all the time, had a battery life of less than a day (heavy use) or about 2 days of moderate use and doesn't have Blackberry Internet Services. The push-email solution offered by Palm sucks (DirectPush somehow transmits much more data than BB, pushed my data bill through the roof + Versamail is total crap).

 

[lwongveros]

What I still don't get is why Visual Voicemail was made server-side dependent in the 1st place...

While I'm not a programmer (I don't even play one on TV...), I know a few people that are, and from my talks with them... why can't the iPhone do it like this...

1. iPhone sees what network it is on (SIM card provides this info)
2. iPhone has scripts specific for each network to access the network's voicemail system.
3. iPhone caches and encodes in AAC the voicemails onto internal storage... tags each file/voicemail with caller-ID info.
4. Visual Voicemail feature allows you to flip through these voicemails just like we've been shown.

This would allow the iPhone to be used on ANY GSM network...

What am I missing?


just my $0.02US

Regarding your point #3, the data bandwidth required to ensure all voicemails are always cached locally on the phone would be prohibitive - not to mention that when a user is roaming the costs could become astronomical. Technically it's possible (although you would also have to deal with the issue of multiple voicemail server systems depending on the operator), but not so straightforward...

 

[unigolyn]

Also, why would anyone sign a 12 or 24 month contract when he or she doesn't get a phone?

Because you don't sign 12 or 24 month contracts. You're free to cancel your subscription whenever you like. Subscription in (Northern, at least) Europe means that you get a monthly bill for whatever amount your calls and data usage ran up, not the North American indentured servitude with "free" minutes. Also, no one pays for incoming calls, ever.

 

[dakis]

No 3G.
The operators in the UK at least paid £22 billion for 3G licences, they aren't going to have a flagship phone which isn't 3G and gets extra services.


If Apple want to sell the iPhone for £400 on contract they are not going to get their way.

Your first point makes sense - I just have the feeling that some network operators don't want too much data traffic on their 3G networks because they would reach their capacities very quickly if everyone had a 3G phone or data card and would transmit data all day long. Of course, UMTS networks are designed to transmit data - but their design is flawed in the way that they still only allow for a very small number of active participants per cell.

As for your second point: this is going to be a hard one for Apple to overcome. There's absolutely no way on Earth Apple can sell the phone cheaper in Europe than in the US without farting at&t in the face. And since they seem to have signed a very comprehensive long-term partnership agreement with at&t, they simply can't do that.
I can see Apple selling the phone in Europe without contract (unless their deal with at&t excludes that option) for 800 € or so - but the phone won't be available anywhere for less than 499$, with or without contract.

Nobody except for the most diligent of Apple's disciples in Europe will pay 800 € for a non-3G phone that can't do MMS. Even the Nokia N95, which has UMTS / HSDPA, GPS etc. is selling by the millions here.

 

[dubhe]

And you made a good choice - I recently sold my Treo 680 and went for an E61 myself. Couldn't be happier with the Nokia.

Thanks for that, having not owned a Treo 680 I was always wondering if I had made the right decision.

Ok, so that's my phone sorted for another 6 months, then I just need the iPhone on Orange so I can continue to enjoy free calls to my wife.

(maybe enjoy is the wrong word )

 

[dakis]

Because you don't sign 12 or 24 month contracts. You're free to cancel your subscription whenever you like.

yeah, not in Switzerland. You can't use post-paid services unless you have a contract - which you can cancel at any time if you're willing to pay a contract penalty of up to 500 CHF. The shortest contracts Swisscom and Orange offer are for 12 months.
Sunrise offers a post-paid option without a binding contract but that has higher per-minute rates than their pre-paid offerings, so nobody in his right mind would use that.

 

[Goldfinger]

It doesn't make any sense for the companies not to agree with their demands. Being the exclusive iPhone carrier guarantees new customers and lengthy contracts, regardless of the demands that Apple makes of them. Looks to me like a win-win.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. A SINGLE exclusive carrier is impossible in Europe.

A) As stated before, in Belgium and Finland locked phones or phones that are sold through a carrier are illegall. While not completely true for Finland apparantly it still holds true for GSM phones, the iPhone is GSM (no 3G). Of course Apple could decide not to sell their iPhone in those countries. But I doubt that they would do that.
And in many countries it's impossible to keep people in their contracts. The fees for getting out of your contract are mostly very low or inexistant as opposed to the fees in the US.

B) There is no single carrier that has presence throughout Europe. Vodafone UK is NOT the same as Vodafone Italy or any other Vodafone. They have the same parent company but they are independant companies. And even if they are there are still a lot of countries that have different carrieres. Every country has to be negotiated separately.

C) 60% uses pre-paid in Europe. And up to 90% in Italy. Those people are NOT interested in a locked phone that comes with a contract and a fixed montly fee.

D) Lacking features such as MMS, 3G and Flash (does it do Java ?). And a price point that is unjustified when looking at the features. No matter how effin great the user interface may be.

The risk of the iPhone failing in Europe is VERY real.

This news comes to no surprise to me. Apple really needs to rethink their European strategy. AppleTV, probably close to zero sales in europe (no SCART; hello ?). Advertising presence ? Close to zero. Market share, very small compared to the US. They're really not getting it that Europe is very different to the US. I doesn't surprise me that they are seen as very arrogant because they are indeed very arrogant.

 

[jubjub]

I haven't seen anyone mention that Apple hade some real trouble finding a partner for the iPhone in the U.S. aswell.. AT&T were the only ones who where even a little interested.

Given that, the fact that European carriers are giving Apple the cold shoulder is not really surprising with the current "configuration" of the iPhone.. mainly no 3G but some other thins aswell, that have already been mentioned in this thread.

As for the things about EU being a fragmented market.. is it really? Sure there are some national carriers but there are also some really big ones that are in most markets.. or have partnerships in most markets. Should be possible to work something out with those.. but obviously not as easy as in the U.S.

All in all Apple has some work to do.

 

[unigolyn]

yeah, not in Switzerland. You can't use post-paid services unless you have a contract - which you can cancel at any time if you're willing to pay a contract penalty of up to 500 CHF. The shortest contracts Swisscom and Orange offer are for 12 months.
Sunrise offers a post-paid option without a binding contract but that has higher per-minute rates than their pre-paid offerings, so nobody in his right mind would use that.

I'm glad I don't live in Switzerland then. Wait, I live in Canada now, and am an indentured servant of Fido/Rogers.

I bought a full-price handset from Fido 2 years ago. I later got a phone on a contract, and kept my old one as a backup. A few months ago, a friend of mine's handset gave up the ghost, so I thought I'd lend my old phone to him. He has a Rogers SIM. That's when I found out that my fully bought and paid for phone was SIM-locked to Fido (which is wholly owned by Rogers, to heighten the irony). I marched down to a Fido branch, and asked that they unlock my phone. "We don't do that, but you can get it done on the Internet", I was told.

So my phone is a brick, unless I use Fido or pay a third party to unlock it. No one, and I mean no one would put up with the North American indentured servitude business model in my neck of the woods, and I'm quite sure an operator SIM-locking full-priced handsets is three kinds of illegal. If Apple thinks they can sell the iPhone in most of Europe with the same business model as in North America, they're sorely mistaken.

 

[Simon R.]

Hear hear, i sure as heck wont sign a 2 yr contract and still pay a significant amount for a phone...heck i avoid 18month contracts with free phones like a plague. No phone is that special

Two years.. my god you are getting b*ttf*cked in the US

I never do more than 6 month contracts - actually, I believe 6 months is the legal limit the phone companies can offer here in Denmark. So whenever I need a new phone, I get one for free (or less than $100) with a 6 month contract that costs me about the same amount as I would use for traffic anyway, so in effect I get the phone virtually for free. That of course doesn't get me a Nokia N95 or something, but a Nokia 6300, 6230i and such. Great phones with nice design that does the job (yes, I use a phone mainly for CALLING and SMS'ing actually).

 

[jubjub]

Business's sit back , become arrogant , suck their customers dry and like that they have a monopoly.

Apple comes in with a killer product and a different way of doing something that people tend to like and meantime big business don't want to change as long as they are making $$$$

So is that Apple you're describing? Sound very much like them.