Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
So there is a one key that can reverse engineer all T2 chips out there? Is it not a poor a poor design for a secure enclave having this kind of master key. Basically that can be consider as a backdoor.

There is no way to do it if, you want to be able to update the secure code.

Not even the same thing. This is more like some guy releasing the blueprints to the ATM. If it was designed properly, then no problem.

It's like releasing the SSL key of the ATM. If you do that, it is wide open. If you want to make a system where only authorized code and not viruses can run, you have no choice but to encrypt that code using a private key. If the private key goes public, anyone with it can install malware.
[automerge]1576136743[/automerge]
So what does this mean? Secure Enclave is one step closer to being compromised, possibly already? Is there anything Apple can do to remedy this?
Put out an update that changes the public key. That would invalidate the old private key. It would only work for people who choose to update their device.
 
Lol... Streisand effect. I never heard of this key being released yet and now I did.

Apple has another thing coming if they think they can really remove information that's out there. This only helps propagate this information.
 
  • Like
Reactions: max.ine
I will keep my iPad jailbroken (with checkra1n) no matter what kind of crap Apple tries to do against it. Jailbreaking = freedom to do what i want with my device.
If I was the NSA and wanted to break into people's iPhones, the first thing I'd do would be to contact someone creating a jailbreak and make them an offer they can't refuse. And this wasn't about jailbreak, it was about breaking into the Secure Enclave. Which is perfectly secure when your phone is jailbroken, except that a jailbreak can prevent it from every being used.
[automerge]1576146309[/automerge]
The keys cannot be copyrighted, since they contain no original or creative work. It'd be like trying to copyright 2+2=4.
That's not necessarily true. Apple could ask fifty developers to each write a little (copyrightable) poem, then create a key based on these poems. That could quite easily be protected by copyright. Apple could get a copyright registration for it. And for a DMCA takedown notice: Obviously the person making the post is free to take Apple to court about it.
 
there are 2 ways to tackle this:
a) sue everyone that expose this
b) get your **** together and make a more secure system!

Honestly, you don't know how security works.

Good security has layered defences. For example: First layer: You keep it a secret that there is a key. Second layer: You make it hard to find the key. Third layer: You make it hard to extract the key. Fourth layer (non technical this time): You go after anyone who extracts the key and tries to publish it. There will be several layers after that.

You are basically telling Apple to throw away layer four of their defences. This makes whatever their system does less secure.

Sooo... Is the Secure Enclave vulnerable now, or not? The rest of this discussion is interesting and all, but...
Layered defences. One layer of defences has come down. It's like you stored important information in a safe at your bank. The bad guys have found out that you have important information that you want to keep secret, and they just found out the address of the company that built the safe that the bank uses to store your secrets. Yes, they are one step closer to finding your secrets. But now they have to break into that company, find their plans for building the safe, and try to find out if there is anything in the plans that allows them to break into the safe. If they find something that allows them to open the safe (and that's a big "if"), then they still have to break into the bank.

In the end, it's all about time. Apple built a system a few years ago, as secure as they can. Part of the security is this multi-layered approach, where an attacker has to get through several levels of security, one by one, and that takes time. Years. And those years are used to develop something that is more secure. So around iPhone 13 time I wouldn't be surprised if the Secure Enclave is replaced with something that is more secure. In about 15 years time Apple will advice you not to rely on phones built today to keep anything secure.

It will now shut up those that think apples products are secure.
Ah, macfacts claiming to post Mac (or iOS) facts. What we have here is good security working as it should. Your iPhone is still secure _today_. It will be secure for many years. Today's iPhone won't be secure forever. We know that an iPhone running iOS 6 is today totally vulnerable, but it wasn't for a long long time, and nobody is using these phones anymore. An iPhone that you buy today will be secure for as long as you use it. At the time when people can break in, these phones won't be in use anymore.

So there is a one key that can reverse engineer all T2 chips out there? Is it not a poor a poor design for a secure enclave having this kind of master key. Basically that can be consider as a backdoor.

It's one level of security. The chip is exactly as secure as it always was - except that with this key people can start looking for insecurities. If the software inside is written perfectly then there are no insecurities. It has taken hackers several years to come to this point, so it has worked. Any security is time limited, and this encryption key has stopped hackers for a few years, so it did a good job.

And there is code in the T2 chip that MUST run, because otherwise the chip isn't working. Unencrypted code, that would have been obviously bad. But the T2 key must be able to decode that code, without any help from the outside. So it MUST be encrypted with a key known only to the T2 chip, and hidden as well as possible.
 
Last edited:
Look at all these Boomers in the comments wanting to be limited by Apple. These people are so uninformed it's unbelievable and they still believe you lose warranty even when the device is out of warranty period lol
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: PC_tech
Jailbreak and research security for all you want, that's a right. Posting encryption key in public that affect the security of all devices out there is irresponsible and undermines the rights of all others.

It's also considered very poor form in the security community. The only time details should be released is after a company has been made aware so they can issue a fix.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GalileoSeven
Apple could ask fifty developers to each write a little (copyrightable) poem, then create a key based on these poems. That could quite easily be protected by copyright. Apple could get a copyright registration for it.
Even assuming this to be actually feasible... you would need to basically submit the key for the copyright registration to be able to protect it, which kinda defeats the whole point of having it secret.

Furthermore, copyright' granted exclusive rights are not absolute and the key (assuming it could be under copyright at all) could very well be still reproducible under fair use.

Trying to copyright the key would be IMHO trying to use the wrong tool for the job: the DMCA already contains provisions against anti-circumvention which are more appropriate to this case.
 
Last edited:
Hopefully this is, as people say, but one layer of a multi-layered approach to securing this 'secure enclave'. Given what's all stored there, I shudder at the thought of some naiive hacker getting lucky and broadcasting the vulnerability for all to see.
 
According to the actual story (by Motherboard), Apple rescinded the DMCA order and asked Twitter to repost the tweet.

I’m wondering why they also requested the repost? Isn’t the retraction sufficient?
 
No. I know precisely what “conflating” means, and it is precisely the word I meant to use.
In that case.... no- that is incorrect.
It is my understanding that since the 5S came out, there have still been myriad jailbreaks without hacking the secure enclave; which is NOT a necessary step in jailbreaking.
 
there are 2 ways to tackle this:
a) sue everyone that expose this
b) get your **** together and make a more secure system!

The fact that Apple is against backdoor etc. means that Apple wants super secure system. The fact that this guy was able to discover and issue he should be able to claim bounty program reward and Apple should make the devices stronger and more secure. Its all about attitude.

Talking marketing crap vs doing real thing are two different things.

On that topic, I would rather have iOS releases when they are truly ready instead of doing one every year and take 6 months or so to fix all the bugs and issues.
I agree with you but Apple has a legitimate reason for the annual release. Every time they release a new flagship iPhone (i.e. every September) they need a new iOS to take advantage of the new hardware as last year's iOS would not know what to do with the 3rd camera on iPhone 11. The "simple" solution would be to release the new hardware when the new OS is ready but that creates significant financial challenges as Apple wants to have the new phone available in time to catch people who just paid off their 2 year old phone they have been financing for the past 24 months.
 
Jailbreaking is one of the dumbest things a human can do aside from playing golf in a lightning storm and hopping the fence to pet a tiger at the zoo.
A technicality:
If you’re talking about that idiot woman in New York City (Bronx Zoo, I think) and her viral video — it was a lion, not a tiger. Not being a jerk, just pointing it out.

Please! Carry on.
 
I am losing brain cells at reading these replies.

That key is to decrypt the SEP firmware and in no way makes actually compromising user data easier.

So many conspiracies and people who don’t know Siguza commenting on it, but you should actually take the time to educate yourself on the topic before making yourself look stupidly uninformed on the internet.
 
encryption algorithms and keys are protected under copyright law.
That seems like a reasonable generalization, but is technically inaccurate.

Put another way: deliberate, unauthorized circumvention of encryption measures creates a cause of action pursuant to the DMCA. (It does other things, too, many of them odious.) In this sense, the DMCA is not truly a copyright act, but a hybrid with patent. It has always been controversial.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: PC_tech
So you're okay with some dimwit (Siguza) publishing the keys to your "personal property"? Imagine if someone took the keys to your car and house, copied them, and handed them out to every passerby. Are you okay with that? How would you feel?

There's zero good that can come from compromising the Secure Enclave that I can see. Do you think it would somehow force Apple to strengthen the security even more? Yes, that would be good.

Regardless of the long-term benefits, I find behaviour exhibited by hackers like Siguza to be dangerous and irresponsible.

okay so:

“So you're okay with some dimwit (Siguza) publishing the keys to your "personal property"?”

Siguza did not publish any keys to your device. He published keys to decrypt a very specific version of the SEP firmware, which most security researchers already had.

“There's zero good that can come from compromising the Secure Enclave that I can see.”

It has already been compromised, just not publicly. It’s naive to assume otherwise.
[automerge]1576155474[/automerge]
encryption algorithms and keys are protected under copyright law.

encryption keys are just a number and are no way protectable under copyright law.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PC_tech and boswald
The amount of ignorance in the comment section here is huge.

People seem to think those keys can decrypt your personal data. That is not true at all! They keys can decrypt the SEP firmware and allow researchers to analyze it. This allows them to find vulnerabilities and help Apple fix them. In the end the user can benefit. The reason Apple doesn't like this is the fact that they still go with "security by obscurity" in some places, they don't want people to find security issues because that will give them a bad image, they want to be known as the most secure platform.

Now let's talk about jailbreak haters. You think jailbreaking is useless? Good for you, enjoy your device but don't call other people out because they do, it's none of your business what people do with their devices. You think jailbreaking is illegal/unethical? It isn't, it's a EULA breach, but there are no legal implications in doing that.
[automerge]1576156367[/automerge]
You absolutely own the device - And you're agreeing to the EULA which states you cannot modify it (software, NOT hardware) at all. Also, you don't own the software AT ALL - you're just allowed to use it. I see your point. Hey - they can probably give you the hardware for free - If you'd agree to pay them for the software usage.

Nothing forces one to comply with the EULA they agreed on. There could be implications from the vendor (like limited service even if within warranty etc) but no legal implications. There's absolutely nothing wrong, unethical or illegal on breaking an EULA as long as you know what you're doing.
[automerge]1576156533[/automerge]
The only time details should be released is after a company has been made aware so they can issue a fix.

That is debatable depending on what kind of vulnerability you're releasing, however it's not applicable in this situation. Nobody released a vulnerability, Siguza released SEP firmware decryption keys so that it can be analyzed by researchers, in order to find vulnerabilities.
[automerge]1576156658[/automerge]
My thoughts exactly. It would be pretty reckless to use one encryption code for all iphones in the world! I hope this isn't the case?!

That's not what it is. This key cannot decrypt your private data, it can decrypt the SEP firmware.
 
Last edited:
All this talk about legislation in governments about having ways to decrypt smartphones....and yet there was a backdoor afterall....
If you are a person who is really worried about this encryption debate, just do yourself a favor and get a Motorola Razr from 2006, a cheap 40 cellphone plan.
 
According to the actual story (by Motherboard), Apple rescinded the DMCA order and asked Twitter to repost the tweet.

I’m wondering why they also requested the repost? Isn’t the retraction sufficient?

As someone has posted earlier, the leaked key was for a beta version of iOS 13.4, and is probably very easily changed and not that much of a threat in the long run.
 
So you're okay with some dimwit (Siguza) publishing the keys to your "personal property"? Imagine if someone took the keys to your car and house, copied them, and handed them out to every passerby. Are you okay with that? How would you feel?

There's zero good that can come from compromising the Secure Enclave that I can see. Do you think it would somehow force Apple to strengthen the security even more? Yes, that would be good.

Regardless of the long-term benefits, I find behaviour exhibited by hackers like Siguza to be dangerous and irresponsible.

I agree. That key should not be published and should be removed by all means. The user who posted it should suffer quite a bit too.

There is no benefit (except negative) to reverse engineering the Secure Enclave. He just made every iPhone vulnerable with this ****. It's not funny, cool or edgy. It's ****ing stupid.

Real or not.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.