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dannyyankou

macrumors G5
Mar 2, 2012
13,046
28,066
Westchester, NY
The argument about activating Blood Oxygen with a jailbroken phone is so weak. Jailbreaking your phone allows you to install a plethora of unauthorized software. If someone is able to install a tweak that gets around restrictions on your phone's carrier, can Verizon seek an import ban on iPhones? Not to mention, Apple actively tries to prevent people from jailbreaking.
 

kc9hzn

macrumors 68000
Jun 18, 2020
1,603
1,909
Masimo isn't a patent troll.
Yes and no. While they do have products on the market (which means that they don’t qualify under the traditional definition of patent troll), when you look at their complaint, it looks like they’re trying to enforce a patent (an expired one, I might add) on the very idea of a pulse oximeter. Overly broad patents held by a firm with significant market power in captured markets (the highly regulated market for professional grade pulse oximeters, ie for hospitals and the like) weaponizing patents against would be competitors in the consumer space would probably qualify as a patent troll in most people’s eyes.

Masimo claims that Apple wouldn’t have been able to bring the sensor to market without having poached employees, though Masimo doesn’t actually seem to be pursuing any legal action on those grounds or corporate espionage grounds, only the patent grounds. (Also, in California, non-compete and anti-poaching clauses are unenforceable, and both companies are based in California.) Masimo also happens to be a very well connected business politically (good ol’ regulatory capture, no doubt), so, while Apple has a substantially bigger market cap than Masimo, this is hardly David vs Goliath. It’s more like, for lack of a better analogy, Goliath vs Achilles.
 

gpwdeux

macrumors member
Nov 2, 2015
65
114
Masimo seems like a child right now. They are actively trying to hurt consumers. I hope apple gets the patents invalidated and successfully appeals the ban.
Why? They are protecting their patent. I am not sure how this hurts consumers anyway? Small fluctuations don't mean anything and no one who actually needs to monitor their pulse oximetry uses an Apple Watch to do so. They already have an FDA approved medical device that costs maybe $15 -$20. It's also pretty simple. 93 and above, good job. 88 to 92, call your doctor. 72 to 88, go to the ER. Below 72, call a mortician.
 

Chazak

macrumors 6502
Aug 15, 2022
457
692
patent trolls are the worst
Perhaps you can explain why protecting your IP and taking legal steps to do that makes Masimo a patent troll. Patent trolls are generally firms that buy up patents for the sole purpose of filing profitable lawsuits. This is not Massimo.

Masimo is anything but a patent troll. They actually have a working product they developed and were manufacturing and selling. Whether Massimo sought to receive a royalty beyond actual value and reasonableness or not is an issue separate from an accusation of being a patent troll.

I am a long time Apple fan and purchased my first Apple products during Jobs' first go round at the helm. I am a frequent defender of Apple, but in this case they were wrong and clearly tried to bully their way to what they wanted. Massimo's demands may or may not have been unreasonable, but Apple thought they could just bulldoze them. It didn't quite work out that way, did it? And that does not make them a patent troll.

I love Apple, but can readily admit they have their moments of displaying unmitigated evil.

(the edit was to correct my misspelling of Masimo's name.)
 
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orbital~debris

macrumors 68020
Mar 3, 2004
2,166
5,679
UK, Europe

kc9hzn

macrumors 68000
Jun 18, 2020
1,603
1,909
You do understand that if Masimo doesn't assert and protect its IP, it loses it right?
I’m not a lawyer (let alone an IP lawyer), but I think that’s only the case for trademarks and not patents, if I’m not mistaken. Firms have to protect their trademarks to prevent them from being genericized (a la Dumpster or Kleenex, or Band-Aid [look at Band-Aid’s insistence on “Band-Aid Brand” in their marketing]). But that concept doesn’t apply to patents, if I understand correctly.
 

Chazak

macrumors 6502
Aug 15, 2022
457
692
Why? They are protecting their patent. I am not sure how this hurts consumers anyway? Small fluctuations don't mean anything and no one who actually needs to monitor their pulse oximetry uses an Apple Watch. They already have an FDA approved medical device that costs maybe $15 -$20. It's also pretty simple. 93 and above, good job. 88 to 92, call your doctor. 72 to 92, go to the ER. Below 72, call a mortician.
Well said.

I used to be amazed how people who normally have character and integrity can rationalize it away. Fanboys run amok!
 

Apollo68

Suspended
Dec 17, 2023
200
430
I’m not a lawyer (let alone an IP lawyer), but I think that’s only the case for trademarks and not patents, if I’m not mistaken. Firms have to protect their trademarks to prevent them from being genericized (a la Dumpster or Kleenex, or Band-Aid [look at Band-Aid’s insistence on “Band-Aid Brand” in their marketing]). But that concept doesn’t apply to patents, if I understand correctly.
I'm not a lawyer yet, and not specializing in IP, but my understanding, taken from someone who is an expert in IP, is that patents can still be substantially weakened by a failure to defend.
 

iStorm

macrumors 68000
Sep 18, 2012
1,774
2,207
The non-functionality only applies to the USA.
So, if I purchase an Apple Series 9 outside the USA, such as on a business trip to Europe/Japan; and I activate it in Japan .... does it work?
Probably, but the next time you update the software in the US it'll probably disable it
It will work. Apple Watches with the sensor disabled have a hardware/firmware revision and a different part number (ending in LW/A).

The oxygen sensor on watches purchased in another country (and old watches) will work in the USA, as long as its part number doesn't end in LW/A.



The ability to measure Blood Oxygen is no longer available on Apple Watch units sold by Apple in the United States on or after January 18, 2024. These are indicated with part numbers ending in LW/A.
 
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johnsc3

macrumors regular
Apr 2, 2018
175
186
Apology? Don’t hold your breath. Every disgruntled CEO is playing victim when it's run ins with Apple.
 

MallardDuck

macrumors 68000
Jul 21, 2014
1,575
2,911
For those watches still functioning in 2028 that is.

It'll be really telling to see if the new models this fall have the sensors even included.

We'll have to see what the USPTO says - if the patents are invalid, then O2 should all be reactivated in the next year or so. But if they are valid, then Apple is going to have to eat crow on this one (and will look very much like a big bully). They're either very arrogant (well, that's always true) or pretty darn confident that the patents are invalid to push things this far.
 

Apollo68

Suspended
Dec 17, 2023
200
430
For anyone who doesn't seem to understand what a patent troll is, here is a brief primer. A Non-producing entity, known colloquially as a patent troll, is an individual or business entity that holds onto an intellectual proprerty portfolio with the intentions of using them to profit through litigation. They have no intention of actually commercializing anything in their portfolio. Masimo does actually bring devices using the patent in question to market. You cannot just call a company a patent troll in good faith because they are asserting their IP rights.
 

kc9hzn

macrumors 68000
Jun 18, 2020
1,603
1,909
The argument about activating Blood Oxygen with a jailbroken phone is so weak. Jailbreaking your phone allows you to install a plethora of unauthorized software. If someone is able to install a tweak that gets around restrictions on your phone's carrier, can Verizon seek an import ban on iPhones? Not to mention, Apple actively tries to prevent people from jailbreaking.
Right, that seemed like a pretty huge reach on their part. Especially since it required running an older version of iOS. That reeks more of entitlement on Masimo’s part than anything else, like they were trying to punish Apple by blocking all sales of the Apple Watch Series 9 in the US entirely* just as punishment for having the temerity to try to get around their patent fees (which must be quite high, that’s the only reason any of this would make any sense).

* Did they really expect Apple to put out a revision to the Series 9 for the US without the blood oxygen sensor hardware? The hardware is probably an integral component to the heart rate monitor hardware, meaning removing it would be nigh impossible (would almost certainly require FCC re-approval and other regulatory approval as well). Not to mention the supply chain logistics issues of removing hardware like that for one country. No, they were clearly aiming to prevent Apple from selling any version of the Apple Watch Series 9 or Ultra 2 in the US. Either to clear the market for their own health sensing watch or just to punish Apple.
 

kc9hzn

macrumors 68000
Jun 18, 2020
1,603
1,909
According to the article the patent (or the last of them that apply) expires in 2028.

Given how much whining there is on this forum about Apple's overpriced RAM and storage upgrades I'm surprised that Cook's unethical business practices are getting so much support.

In my case, I have to point out that Masimo isn’t exactly a paradigm of ethics either. They’re clearly using their political connections in this case.
 

Mr_Ed

macrumors 6502a
Mar 10, 2004
719
708
North and east of Mickeyland
* Did they really expect Apple to put out a revision to the Series 9 for the US without the blood oxygen sensor hardware? The hardware is probably an integral component to the heart rate monitor hardware, meaning removing it would be nigh impossible (would almost certainly require FCC re-approval and other regulatory approval as well). Not to mention the supply chain logistics issues of removing hardware like that for one country. No, they were clearly aiming to prevent Apple from selling any version of the Apple Watch Series 9 or Ultra 2 in the US. Either to clear the market for their own health sensing watch or just to punish Apple.
In one word: Yes.

All those complications you describe are commonly known as “consequences”. Apple took a gamble by poaching Masimo employees. It didn’t pan out. Simple as that.

Or they could try to work out a licensing deal and move on.
 

Mlrollin91

macrumors G5
Nov 20, 2008
14,124
10,114
You do understand that if Masimo doesn't assert and protect its IP, it loses it right?
Not true. As another posted mentioned, in trademarks, if you don't protect the right, it might become genericized, but not patents. Unlike a trademark, which does not have a fixed time period, a patent is 20 years. You do not lose your rights just because you do not police your patent in those 20 years. Does it make it harder to license it to an exclusive licensee if you are not policing infringements? Absolutely. But you do not lose your rights if you chose not to police.

Disclaimer - I am an IP attorney. This is not legal advice, only legal information.
 
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Apollo68

Suspended
Dec 17, 2023
200
430
Why the hate on Masimo? The other reaction seems childish.

Apple has trillions, they should pay the fees and in the meantime aquire Masimo or something similiar, end of story.
But THIS outcome, removing an existing feature in the US, what is even that?
How can any customer support that and just think, "Ok, I am still loving it"
no, they should not acquire Masimo. Apple should license the patent and move on. Apple also is worth trillions, but does not "have" trillions per se. Market valuation and equity are very different things. Apple as a company has about 62.15 Billion dollars in equity as of 2023.
 
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