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Finally, someone who gets it. It seems quite a number of commenters here lack the foresight and imagination to see where the Lytro technology can go.

Unfortunately Lytro is still very much limited by law of physics. It suffers from relatively poor image quality and a limited control over depth of field because it uses a very small sensor for a dedicated camera. The first part (high noise) can be overlooked a bit but the later part is almost a deal breaker because the whole point of the camera is that you can control the focus plan after the picture is taken.

This is why most of the samples of Lytro are macro/close up shots with some background far away because otherwise the effect just isn't that great due to its small sensor. It would all be fine if Lytro was using a technology that didn't have any trade off but it does pay a hefty price to have that information by sacrificing the resolution heavily.

As far as I know, this problem cannot be solved by anything other than increasing the sensor size. At the end, the only way to make Lytro truly worthwhile, IMHO, would be to equip it with a larger sensor to extend the control over the depth of field. Something like the standard APS-C size sensors found in most of the modern DSLRs will be good. However that'll up the price greatly and I just don't know if it's economically feasible at that point. Also with that sensor size, it'll be very difficult to equip it with a large zoom lens like now and the lenses will be more expensive on top the increased body price.

So to summarize it all, Lytro seems to me a neat gimmick that's too costly to make anything worthwhile out of its original premise. Personally I'd much rather see Apple go into the mirrorless market if they are going into the cameras.
 
To Apple, focus later, wide range light, temporal data capture, and convenience features for mass-consumers, are mere selling points and differentiating features.

If Apple were to make such a thing I think it more likely they would make a doo-dad feature for an existing product like the phone or something like a nano form factor camera.

But once they do, the capabilities it has would have applications for pro-sumers and pros. maybe an SDK leading to inclusion of patented features into pro cameras would be the next step.

Apple is running up against the law of large numbers and even a piece of a $60B industry is more of a side-job than a 5th leg in a stool for them. But photography is a central part of the cultural norm and Apple does like that.

Rocketman
 
Oh wait, but Nikon and Cannon already make amazing cameras, I never thought a phone was particularly cool (at all ever) until the iPhone.

At the moment it's sort of like Apple trying to beat out Ferrari in sports cars starting from practically zero.

People love Cannon and Nikon, they aren't going to be jumping to switch to an apple system. Especially since they have hundreds-thousands invested in lenses.

And at the time the iPhone was released, wasn't the Motorola Razr one of the greatest and best-selling phones on the market?

Lamborghini was able to come to the market and compete very well with Ferrari because they were able to build a better vehicle at the time. People said then that a farming equipment manufacturer should stay out of the sports car market.

And they should love them because they are great companies that make great cameras. That does not mean though, that Apple wouldn't be able to improve upon existing technology or even adapt an existing technology mainly used for cellular or computers to be used in photography. And perhaps Apple wouldn't be making a camera for those professional photographers that require that equipment. They would however, try to get the people that buy the $100-$200 digital cameras to move over to their ecosystem. And they could also include Aperture as part of the purchase and get people to use their higher-end photo suite. This of course is all speculation, but I would like to see it happen.
 
And regardless, they stopped being a "just computer" company years ago, and look at how they're doing now.

Seems like they're making the right choices.

Apple couldn't compete with windows and google so they moved to ipads. Now we are almost forced to go into that direction. What if users don't want to use ipad / tablet technology. We just want great OS's and personal computers which is what they have stopped focusing on. I don't want toys.... apple has shifted to mainstream consumer products so they can make as much money as possible they don't make good products any more they just make good money.

No we need more ******** that apple can make money from by moving away from computers, ie apples first phones then ipads now TV's next cameras ?
 
No

No, no, no, no, no.... You have a good thing going, don't screw it up. The iTV will work, you already have your foot in the door with movies and TV shows you can get off of iTunes and don't forget the Apple TV. But I am never giving up my Cannon DSLR. I'm sorry, I know it was Steves wish but, god rest his soul, he's gone now. I am starting to get tired of the revolutionary stuff you guys keep doing, SLOW DOWN! I am tired of hearing "This year we have a brand new revolutionary product for you guys" and it looks almost the same the year before. At every Keynote.... Also I am starting to not enjoy the mac ecosystem. Everything looks the same, what are we in 1984? Is Big Brother watching, Black or white with phones, only aluminum with computers, 2 kinds of iPods are actually free with some different colors. The iOS has looked exactly the same since the first iPhone, with few cosmetic differences. Cut the bull crap with the App store, let any app run on the phone, aslong as it doesn't steal my id, I'm fine. I pay $xxx for the damn thing, the least you could do it be different.
 
Unfortunately Lytro is still very much limited by law of physics. …

As far as I know, this problem cannot be solved by anything other than increasing the sensor size. At the end, the only way to make Lytro truly worthwhile, IMHO, would be to equip it with a larger sensor to extend the control over the depth of field. Something like the standard APS-C size sensors found in most of the modern DSLRs will be good. However that'll up the price greatly and I just don't know if it's economically feasible at that point. Also with that sensor size, it'll be very difficult to equip it with a large zoom lens like now and the lenses will be more expensive on top the increased body price.

So to summarize it all, Lytro seems to me a neat gimmick that's too costly to make anything worthwhile out of its original premise.

You start by saying the technology is limited by the laws of physics (which can't change of course), but then go on to say it's more about the current economic feasibility (which can and does change).

Remember when computers were so big they took up entire rooms? We had funny predictions like this one from Popular Mechanics in 1949: 'Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.' Certainly no one was predicting that more powerful computers would one day be affordable enough for a kid to buy with his pocket money, or indeed that he might walk home from the shop with that computer in his pocket! I'm willing to bet that one day you will be explaining to your grandkids how in the old days we had to focus our photos before we took them! :)
 
Apple couldn't compete with windows and google so they moved to ipads. Now we are almost forced to go into that direction. What if users don't want to use ipad / tablet technology. We just want great OS's and personal computers which is what they have stopped focusing on. I don't want toys.... apple has shifted to mainstream consumer products so they can make as much money as possible they don't make good products any more they just make good money.

No we need more ******** that apple can make money from by moving away from computers, ie apples first phones then ipads now TV's next cameras ?

EXACTLY! and everything is the same!
 
You start by saying the technology is limited by the laws of physics (which can't change of course), but then go on to say it's more about the current economic feasibility (which can and does change).

Yes I should clarify that. First the economic feasibility of camera industry doesn't change as fast as computers do because for computers, you bring costs down by make faster chips smaller but that cannot be done for the cameras. The sensor size, by its very definition, cannot be made smaller. Thus you do get cheaper sensors over time, but the price doesn't come down as quickly as computers do because of that fact.

Second, a Lytro using a DSLR size sensor will be big. Actually it'll be huge if you put a 35-280mm (35mm equivalent) lens like it does now. To cover the large sensor, a large lens cannot be made much smaller or cheaper that easily. A large superzoom lens like that will be really expensive. (edit: well..if you want a nice lens that is ;) ) If you combine that expensive lens with the body..that'll be one expensive camera, not to mention humongous. Improving digital technology alone won't be able to help that.

Thus unfortunately for Lytro, the economic feasibility situation in the camera industry isn't quite the same as it is in the computer industry. If you want to say they'll get more resolution and faster burst shots over time, I'd agree, but to make its raison d'etre truly meaningful, you need to equip it with a large sensor and that's extremely unlikely to happen.
 
Well... it's one of the many reasons Apple changed it's name from Apple Computers to just Apple.

I have too many things in my pocket as it is right now....
 
if its true It'll be one Apple product I won't be interested in, since I can guarantee it'll be for photographic newbies, who think they are a photographer, because they can take a photo of a pair of shoes and or a cup of coffee add a retro filter and then uploader it to Instagram.

To me though cameras like Sony NEX series have dumbed down photography, the whole enjoyment for me was learning the manual controls of my DSLR and Film SLR's understanding ISO, Aperture etc. Makes you a better photographer that way.

The iPhone 4S camera is amazing for a phone, but when you compare it to my higher end Nikon DSLR, the Nikon is in a different league. My iPhone 4S camera is really poor in any sort of dull conditions as it becomes rather granny. Although the majority of, all phones and point n shoots cameras tend to suffer this problem due to the fact that their sensors are so tiny.

The only time I can take outstanding shots with my iPhone is on a bright summers day, any other time it becomes just too grainy. Manual controls and lens options are everything to me. Digital grain is not a nice effect at all, not like film grain, now thats a true art form.
 
Apple couldn't compete with windows and google so they moved to ipads. Now we are almost forced to go into that direction. What if users don't want to use ipad / tablet technology. We just want great OS's and personal computers which is what they have stopped focusing on. I don't want toys.... apple has shifted to mainstream consumer products so they can make as much money as possible they don't make good products any more they just make good money.

No we need more ******** that apple can make money from by moving away from computers, ie apples first phones then ipads now TV's next cameras ?

What are you talking about? I genuinely can't tell if you're being serious, or if you're just trolling.

In any case, Apple clearly COULD compete, considering they surpassed Microsoft last year :/ They're still selling really well, with no signs of decreasing their sales any time soon. They still focus on personal computers... It's really likely they'll refresh their line in just a few weeks, along side Mountain Lion. How is that not focusing on the PC's?

Phones/Tablets =/= toys.
They see markets in which they think they can contribute great things to, and go for it. And they've had a lucky streak of being right a lot. They did it with music, they did it with phones, they did it with tablets, and who knows, they may do it with TV's some point soon, and if they see a chance at making something great else where, what's the big problem? They've done great so far, why expect failure?

Tough luck if you can't deal with change, but it's really likely tablets will replace PC's for some people. Not the computer generation much, but the younger generation, people that just use computers for web surfing, music, video, social life and occasional writing work and so on. It's capable of all that, and it's cheap, it'll be convenient, people with light use computing live's will go for it.

Get over it.
 
WiFi cards and Samsung use iCloud? I didn't realize.

Why do you need to use iCloud?

Oh wait, is this average Apple user now so thick they can't set up a simple piece of technology?

Eye-Fi can upload directly to you iPhone, iPad etc, no need to be part of iCloud. The same with Samsung.

*what is Cannon?

I've been wondering the same thing the whole thread. Are Apple going into the military hardware industry.

It is spelt CANON.
 
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This rumor is unfounded at best. Jobs already transformed the digital camera before he passed and it took place in the iPhone/iPod. Aside from the mega-pixel count, which I expect to increase as needed, the one thing lacking in comparison to virtually all other point-and-shoots is an optical zoom which is not out of the question when remembering that the 4S has a 5-element lens. That's quite a bit of lens to fit inside a super slim housing. All that said, the continued research and partnerships with camera tech companies and technology with be incorporated into future iDevices.

I would be interested in hearing if anyone would regularly use an optical zoom on an iPhone or even wanted one before the forums starting suggesting such an addition. I would wager that, given the common scenarios of picture taking with any smartphone, an optical zoom is quite low on priority list of most users.
 
I hope this never happens. Leave the cameras to companies like Nikon and Cannon please.

And phones to companies like Nokia.

Only joking. The phone was about software and clean hardware. A good camera is about hardware, especially the glass. It's not like there is a glaring need for the development of glass quality that is being missed by Canon or Nikon.

Apple can't revolutionise this market with a point and shoot. I am not saying that SJ didn't have another revolutionary idea, just that if he did, it wasn't a point and shoot. If it was then it will be in the speaker and ping category of apple products: that rare mistake when apple makes something because it thinks it has to.
 
I hate the copy in that mockup. "Todays cameras confuse users with way too many options based on legacy concepts."

Is this really what its come to? Don't learn anything? Don't understand how anything works? Start insinuating that a skills based task is actually bad? This is the one mentality Apple has brought to the table that I loathe.

It's why photography as an art form has taken just a spill the last ten years, with the rise of digital photography things have become more accessible to everyone. That has led to the rise of the "purchased artist" I guess you could call it. People who make great digital photos -- thanks to their equipment. They buy an incredibly expensive DSLR and touch up their photos contrast, color, etc in Photoshop often afterwards and claim they're "photographers" when if it wasn't for all the automated settings on their $3000 camera they couldn't shoot a kids' birthday party decently.

They know nothing about how lens focal length effects a photo, only rudimentary info on aperture and shutter speed creative usage, or using composition other than 4/3rds, judging exposure manually or anything a real photographer does.
 
What are you talking about? I genuinely can't tell if you're being serious, or if you're just trolling.

In any case, Apple clearly COULD compete, considering they surpassed Microsoft last year :/ They're still selling really well, with no signs of decreasing their sales any time soon. They still focus on personal computers... It's really likely they'll refresh their line in just a few weeks, along side Mountain Lion. How is that not focusing on the PC's?

Phones/Tablets =/= toys.
They see markets in which they think they can contribute great things to, and go for it. And they've had a lucky streak of being right a lot. They did it with music, they did it with phones, they did it with tablets, and who knows, they may do it with TV's some point soon, and if they see a chance at making something great else where, what's the big problem? They've done great so far, why expect failure?

Tough luck if you can't deal with change, but it's really likely tablets will replace PC's for some people. Not the computer generation much, but the younger generation, people that just use computers for web surfing, music, video, social life and occasional writing work and so on. It's capable of all that, and it's cheap, it'll be convenient, people with light use computing live's will go for it.

Get over it.


If you want a computer for light use, you don't need to spend apples premium prices...... premium cutting edge hardware and sophisticated architecture in OS and hardware at a premium price for light you say, fair enough.

Apple surpassed microsoft in terms of what exactly? _________ < your answer goes here.

Did they surpass Samsung Google or Microsoft in market share in anything other than tablets ?

Their sales are steady but so insignificant compared to all of its competitors in computers and phones. And apple may be successful financially and surpassed some companies financially, so they are just good at making money right. I rest my case
 
My 2 cents...

The core question is whether Apple would enter the photography market with a killer product. They could do so like they did with the mp3 player market. So, let's take a look at what Apple did to achieve that.

1) They build a simple and cool mp3 player, but that wasn't enough
2) They released iTunes

We have to remember that Apple builds both hardware AND software. Their primary strength in competing with everyone is the fact that do both and the rest of their competitors do one or the other.

The result is Apple is able to make a complete system for the consumer's experience from how the user can play their music to how they can organize and share their music. Nobody has been able to overtake Apple because no one competitor builds both the hardware and the software.

So, I believe Apple would enter into any NEW market if they saw a way to do replicate the same strategy - make a cool piece of hardware and easy to use software experience.

The secondary question is whether the photography market or Apple, itself, is ready for Apple to enter this market.

So, what would be the cool product for this market?

It is a well documented fact that the point and shoot market is rapidly dwindling because of the smartphone cameras. And surprisingly, talking with a local pro camera store, they have seen an increase in sales of DSLRs because the "low end" point and shoot market is being replaced by the smartphone cameras, but that many users of the smartphone cameras are NOT getting the shots they want.

Logically, Apple wouldn't compete with itself by trying to make a point and shoot that would compete with it's own iPhone. It would make more sense if they go after the consumer market by making the iPhone camera "experience" better.

To go after the "pro" market will take more than just what the Light Field camera is offering. Readjusting focus is only problem that many of us have when taking photos.

The iLounge report makes one statement ("...legacy concepts - ISO, aperture, and shutter speed hugely impact images..."), but fails to address how Apple might "solve" what all three of the concepts do.

ISO is a legacy concept from the film days but is in fact still relevant to digital image sensors. It is the scale by which we measure how little ambient light we need to get a good exposure. It is also the scale by which we determine how much digital noise we get in our images. This has to do with the physical properties and characteristics of the image sensors. There is no mention of any technology that solves this problem outside of what the pro camera makers are making right now.

Aperture controls depth of field in addition to the amount of light coming into the camera.

Shallow of depth of field is part of what the Light Field camera addresses. That's really cool. It's file size worries me a little and the amount of time it's going to take to "fix" my focus in post for the hundreds of photos I can potentially take per job (think catalog photography) versus getting it all right during the original photo shoot which probably was only a few hours.

On the other extreme, aperture allows me to have everything in focus which Light Field according to one poster says it doesn't do, but I'm sure genius programmers at Apple would figure a way out to "merge" multiple outputs of shallow depth of field shots into one final shot where everything is in focus. Once again, I'm concerned about file size and how much time that will take, multiplied out over a large volume of photos.

I laugh at how many times I hear people taking photos and saying they'll fix it in photoshop. It took less than a second to snap the shot, but they're happy to spend minutes to hours fixing their photo later.

Shutter speed is the ability to stop the wings of a hummingbird in flight on the fast end of the scale to blurring water flowing in creek bed on the slow end. No mention of any technology that can do this in post.

Additionally, why is there a "pro" dslr market in the first place? More specifically, why are there $1000+ still photo camera lenses? Because even before the light hits the image sensor, it has to pass through glass. Digital photography has come a long ways since Apple's Quicktake, but nothing in the electronics realm can manipulate light better than good glass...yet. I for one would love to see it happen some day, but I haven't heard anything that's going to replace the image quality coming from $1000+ lenses.

Just think, if that were true or we (collectively as humanity) were remotely close to developing something to replace this fundamental physics problem, NASA would not have spent billions of dollar (or millions, I don't remember) on making the massive telescope we call Hubble.

So, will Apple make a killer camera to replace all cameras? Nope.
Can they make a better iPhone camera? MOST DEFINITELY

On the software side, what's the ecosystem? iPhoto? How does Apple make money off of iPhoto like it does off of iTunes?

I don't see it right now. Doesn't mean that Apple isn't working on something.

But it does mean that I don't see enough evidence to even support speculation that Apple will enter into the photography market and revolutionize how the world takes photos like Apple did when they revolutionized the mp3 market and changed how will all listened to our music.

One last point...
For all the market share Apple has made with it's great products, surprisingly there are enough competing products out there to show that there are enough "consumers" out there who don't see things the Apple way. For example, the Android market. Apple's iPhone doesn't own the whole market. Why not? We are not all the same. We all have different reasons for doing things differently.

The photography world is very much an example of this. Everyone has different needs and requirements. Journalists take photos one way. Sports photographers take photos another way. Wedding photographers take photos another way. Product photographers take photos another way. A killer camera that will take all these photos without the photographer understanding ISO, aperture and shutterspeed would indeed be revolutionary.
 
For all the market share Apple has made with it's great products, surprisingly there are enough competing products out there to show that there are enough "consumers" out there who don't see things the Apple way. For example, the Android market. Apple's iPhone doesn't own the whole market. Why not? We are not all the same. We all have different reasons for doing things differently.

The photography world is very much an example of this. Everyone has different needs and requirements. Journalists take photos one way. Sports photographers take photos another way. Wedding photographers take photos another way. Product photographers take photos another way. A killer camera that will take all these photos without the photographer understanding ISO, aperture and shutterspeed would indeed be revolutionary.

Apple has done extremely well, but they've all been in markets which are in their infancy and or haven't really taken the world by storm. I.e

The iPod. No other MP3 player was really competitive at the time.

The iPhone. Smartphones before it were rather laughable, like the Blackberry 7730 and were not considered by consumers or even known well in the mass market.

The iPad. Tablets, again like the iPhone, the market was still rather small and hadn't took off, due to companies not really offering many options.

Unlike these markets, the digital camera market has been very well established for the past 8-10 years now. There are more than enough manufacturers in the camera world and I personally always buy Nikon, its been the best for me with DSLR's and stuff.

To your latter statements. Everyone has different photographic needs. Thats why manufacturers make so many lens options all for different purposes. Making a camera whats dumbed down isn't going to benefit anyone. The whole enjoyment for me was learning manual controls and experimenting with them. People who don't want to learn these skill are quite simply ignorant and I, like many others would never consider them a real photographer. Photography is more than just composition, its all the setup and control process for the perfect image. The whole art of photography is being able to manipulate on camera manual controls. A dumbed down camera would be more like painting by numbers and being a killer of creativity and artistic merit.
 
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Image

A cannon is any piece of artillery that uses gunpowder or other usually explosive-based propellents to launch a projectile. Cannon vary in caliber, range, mobility, rate of fire, angle of fire, and firepower; different forms of cannon combine and balance these attributes in varying degrees, depending on their intended use on the battlefield. The word cannon is derived from several languages, in which the original definition can usually be translated as tube, cane, or reed. The plural of cannon is also cannon, though more commonly in America, cannons. In the modern era, the term cannon has fallen out of common usage, replaced by "guns" or "artillery" if not a more specific term such as "mortar" or "howitzer". In aviation, cannon remains a common term for aircraft guns.
First used in China, cannon were among the earliest forms of gunpowder artillery, and over time replaced siege engines—among other forms of aging weaponry—on the battlefield. In the Middle East, the first use of the hand cannon is argued to be during the 1260 Battle of Ain Jalut between the Mamluks and Mongols. The first cannon in Europe were probably used in Iberia in the 11 and 12th centuries, and English cannon were first deployed in the Hundred Years' War, at the Battle of Crécy, in 1346. On the African continent, the cannon was first used by the Somali Imam Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi of the Adal Sultanate in his conquest of Ethiopia in 1529.[1] It was during this period, the Middle Ages, that cannon became standardized, and more effective in both the anti-infantry and siege roles. After the Middle Ages most large cannon were abandoned in favor of greater numbers of lighter, more maneuverable pieces. In addition, new technologies and tactics were developed, making most defences obsolete; this led to the construction of star forts, specifically designed to withstand artillery bombardment though these too (along with the Martello Tower) would find themselves rendered obsolete when explosive and armour piercing rounds made even these types of fortifications vulnerable.
Cannon also transformed naval warfare in the early modern period, as European navies took advantage of their firepower. As rifling became commonplace, the accuracy and destructive power of cannon was significantly increased, and they became deadlier than ever, both to infantry who belatedly had to adopt different tactics, and to ships, which had to be armoured. In World War I, the majority of combat fatalities were caused by artillery; they were also used widely in World War II. Most modern cannon are similar to those used in the Second World War, although the importance of the larger caliber weapons has declined with the development of missiles.
In addition to their widespread use in warfare, cannons have found peaceful applications, notably in avalanche control.


ooh. they make camera too?
 
It's why photography as an art form has taken just a spill the last ten years, with the rise of digital photography things have become more accessible to everyone. That has led to the rise of the "purchased artist" I guess you could call it. People who make great digital photos -- thanks to their equipment. They buy an incredibly expensive DSLR and touch up their photos contrast, color, etc in Photoshop often afterwards and claim they're "photographers" when if it wasn't for all the automated settings on their $3000 camera they couldn't shoot a kids' birthday party decently.

They know nothing about how lens focal length effects a photo, only rudimentary info on aperture and shutter speed creative usage, or using composition other than 4/3rds, judging exposure manually or anything a real photographer does.

What annoys me is people who know all about aperture, shutter speed, exposure and think it makes 'them' better than 'they' and a true artist / photographer. It's an industry / attitude that needs a shake up !!
 
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