Try "toshcomputers" because I found him in about 15 seconds
Gotta look up the right name to find what your after <3
Yeah its not on the US ebay...I already checked that.
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AppleCare Protection Plan - problems
- Thread starter gray19lfc
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Yeah its not on the US ebay...I already checked that.
Thanks, Jens wants us to engage on these threads because he believes it is important to offer people the correct information, but I am not so sure this really is getting through. Oh well, it does produce sales, and that can't be wrongNo problem ... seemed like it was turning into a witch-hunt and I just wanted to add some support your way ... Merry Christmas.
Thanks, Jens wants us to engage on these threads because he believes it is important to offer people the correct information, but I am not so sure this really is getting through. Oh well, it does produce sales, and that can't be wrong
I hear ya ... tough crowd.
I get the jest of what you guys do. Buy 500 computers, and to get a discount you have to buy 200 AC plans.
sell 400 machines w/o AC ... now sitting on 100 extra AC.
cheers
Quite right, Apple has a huge profit margin in Applecare and so they add an Applecare purchase requirement if you want to be in the highest dealer discount category for their Macs. C'est la vie...
Apple can limit the transferability of a warranty if they want - for example they could not honor a warranty for the purchaser of a computer from a non-authorized dealer, even if it was a new machine. Similarly, they could limit AppleCare to the original purchaser if they wanted. They don't, in fact they specifically allow its transfer. That is different than not allowing the sale as of the item.
Similarly, they could prevent it's importation for sale in the US. Omega did this to Costco when Costco started selling grey market Omegas purchased legitimately overseas. AIR, they won on trademark or copyright grounds to prevent the importation and sale.
In short, separate from your issue, the law is not cut and dried on what can and can't be sold where and what warranty rights you have.
1. Transferability is not the same as a sale. Transferability kicks in once you have registered the AppleCare and then wish to transfer it to a new owner. Dealers do not enter into an AppleCare agreement with Apple when they stock items for sale; the terms only become effective when the end-user agrees to them by activating Applecare and then clicking to agree to the terms. Therefore, the terms regarding transferability do not apply when we buy AppleCare from Apple and re-sell it.
2. Aside from the fact that we do not sell in the US (and thus this issue seems to be for a different thread), Apple could not restrict the sale of its product in the US, and they do not, as it is easily available from a myriad of sellers who are not Apple resellers.
3. Our firm is owned by a group of commercial lawyers who know very well what manufacturers can and cannot do to restrict the sale of their products, and we have built a large business from this platform. Contrary to what you write, the law is quite clear (and that is the purpose of laws...) in what manufacturers cannot do, to restrict the sale of their product to their own dealer networks. Many countries have strict parallel importing rules which supercede manufacturers' trademark rights and are specifically enacted to allow consumers to pay market prices, not artificially inflated sole-franchise prices. That is the basis on which you can buy pretty much anything over the net in pretty much any country, and there is nothing a manufacturer can do about it. If you want more details, read up on "exhaustion of rights doctrine".
Since there seems to be considerable interest in what Apple dealers and non-Apple dealers can do, here is what Apple has written (and a scan of the original letter excerpt is on all of our listings):
"As we stated in our letter of 3 November 2010, in the event that a customer does not have the original proof of purchase from Apple or from an Apple Authorised reseller documenting the sale of the AppleCare Protection Plan, registration for the Plan can still be completed using the serial number which is recorded on the original Apple packaging.
All purchasers of Apple products are able top use the serial number to complete registration in this way, regardless of whether the product was purchased from an Apple Authorised reseller or not. Accordingly, Apple does not deny registration on the basis that the products were not purchased through an Apple Authorised reseller..." [color added]
This is about is clear as it gets, and refutes the scaremongering that (ill-informed) folks have posted here.
Happy holidays.
"As we stated in our letter of 3 November 2010, in the event that a customer does not have the original proof of purchase from Apple or from an Apple Authorised reseller documenting the sale of the AppleCare Protection Plan, registration for the Plan can still be completed using the serial number which is recorded on the original Apple packaging.
All purchasers of Apple products are able top use the serial number to complete registration in this way, regardless of whether the product was purchased from an Apple Authorised reseller or not. Accordingly, Apple does not deny registration on the basis that the products were not purchased through an Apple Authorised reseller..." [color added]
This is about is clear as it gets, and refutes the scaremongering that (ill-informed) folks have posted here.
Happy holidays.
Going off-topic with a quick message to toshcomputers. Have you guys ever considered going under a different name in the UK as your existing name with the word 'tosh' may have a negative impact on your business?
Just food for thought.
Merry Christmas.
Just food for thought.
Merry Christmas.
Going off-topic with a quick message to toshcomputers. Have you guys ever considered going under a different name in the UK as your existing name with the word 'tosh' may have a negative impact on your business?
Just food for thought.
Merry Christmas.
Yes, we did, and thanks for the thoughtful suggestion. It is a play on MacinTOSH Apple products and about the only name we found that satisfied Apple in not being infringing. It is also one of the few names that people seem to be able to pronounce and spell easily in non-English speaking countries, and so it seems we are stuck with it for the time being. We brand all of our stores to one name, and so the penalty is that not in all countries will the same name have the same 'values' attached.
its just that the word 'tosh' in the UK is slang for 'rubbish'. I do understand the need to keep things consistent in global branding and the difficulty in making exceptions and let's hope not many in the UK will interpret it the way I did.
I did come across your company a few months back but couldn't take you guys seriously just because I thought Del Trotter was running the show.
Anyway, that's the end of me going off-topic.
I did come across your company a few months back but couldn't take you guys seriously just because I thought Del Trotter was running the show.
Anyway, that's the end of me going off-topic.
Apple can limit the transferability of a warranty if they want - for example they could not honor a warranty for the purchaser of a computer from a non-authorized dealer, even if it was a new machine. Similarly, they could limit AppleCare to the original purchaser if they wanted. They don't, in fact they specifically allow its transfer. That is different than not allowing the sale as of the item.
Similarly, they could prevent it's importation for sale in the US. Omega did this to Costco when Costco started selling grey market Omegas purchased legitimately overseas. AIR, they won on trademark or copyright grounds to prevent the importation and sale.
In short, separate from your issue, the law is not cut and dried on what can and can't be sold where and what warranty rights you have.
2&3. Costco vs Omega shows that, in parts of the US at least:
a. Companies can control the sale of their products and pricing
b. Companies can limit the import of their products
c. The law,in the US at least, is not cut and dry.
First sale, in the US at least, is not a clear and universally applied doctrine; and the Supremes further muddy the water with their recent decision.
You keep referring to Apple's dealer network; I am clearly referring to non-authorized dealers; what Apple can and can do is not necessarily the same for both.
Similarly, they could prevent it's importation for sale in the US. Omega did this to Costco when Costco started selling grey market Omegas purchased legitimately overseas. AIR, they won on trademark or copyright grounds to prevent the importation and sale.
In short, separate from your issue, the law is not cut and dried on what can and can't be sold where and what warranty rights you have.
1. I never said transferability and sale are the same thing - Apple could limit their warranty on items sold by non-authorized dealers or on grey market products; they chose not to.
2&3. Costco vs Omega shows that, in parts of the US at least:
a. Companies can control the sale of their products and pricing
b. Companies can limit the import of their products
c. The law,in the US at least, is not cut and dry.
First sale, in the US at least, is not a clear and universally applied doctrine; and the Supremes further muddy the water with their recent decision.
You keep referring to Apple's dealer network; I am clearly referring to non-authorized dealers; what Apple can and can do is not necessarily the same for both.
With all due respect, your comments are incorrect and law and incorrect in fact.
What you claim Apple can do is incorrect and contrasted by their own statements.
It's very simple: You can buy AppleCare from anyone, and as long as it is the original, genuine AppleCare box, Apple will register your AppleCare, regardless where you bought. Period. End of Story.
I don't understand the reference to what you can or cannot do in the US. We do not sell in the US and none of our customers are in the US, so what does this have to do with this thread?
What you claim Apple can do is incorrect and contrasted by their own statements.
It's very simple: You can buy AppleCare from anyone, and as long as it is the original, genuine AppleCare box, Apple will register your AppleCare, regardless where you bought. Period. End of Story.
I don't understand the reference to what you can or cannot do in the US. We do not sell in the US and none of our customers are in the US, so what does this have to do with this thread?
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wait. what?
I think some of us in this thread are thinking about a retail boxed applecare (which anyone can sell) and the 'codes only' that dealers can add to a new machine upon sale.
There's no harm in buying applecare retail boxed from ebay, it's the codes that we (were) worried about.
You must be mistaken. There is no one on the planet selling AppleCare codes only, since Apple changed its system in October. The new AppleCare registration numbers are numerics and letters, and only work in conjunction with the AppleCare serial number from the box. We only sell AppleCare Apple-sealed boxes.
I am not arguing that - Apple has decided they want to do that. I never disagreed with that statement. I disagreed with your implication that Apple *must* do that.
As you have demonstrated, it is a good business model to buy Applecare and arbitrage the price difference in various markets to make a profit.
I do think, that if enough people would do that, the dealer network would force Apple's hand as they saw their margins erode.
My point is, under US law, they don't have to do that. You had earlier made a blanket statement that the law is clear that companies cannot forbid parallel importation because of the doctrine of first sale. That's not always true under US law, and the recent Supreme's decision is a clear example of that. What the law is in the rest of the world may vary.
I am happy to agree that we disagree. Apple had tried previously to enforce a sole-dealer distribution structure but abandoned that approach after they realized they would lose in a public battle with regulators. Therefore, they "must" act consistent with consumer protection/anti-competition rules.
As there are now dozens of companies selling Apple products in the US without being Apple-authorized dealers, it seems clear that legislation in the US would make it impossible for Apple to restrict sales of their product to themselves.
The central issue is usually that once you buy something and own it, you are allowed to dispose of it as you like, whether you give it away or sell it, and thus it is very hard for a manufacturer to enforce that a buyer of their product is not allowed to re-sell it. Especially with net sales operating globally, the system of sole-dealer network is winding down, largely due to lack of enforcement ability. We only see sole dealer structures remain in small and restrictive economies, i.e. Malaysia, Vietnam, etc..
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Well, at least we can agree to disagreeing - without being disagreeable.
Non-authorized resellers can buy from an authorized reseller, and it is hard for Apple, or any company, to control the gray marketing of their products. They could punish a dealer that lets too much stuff go out the backdoor to resellers; my guess is that it's simply not worth the effort.
Apple is also at fault here with the way they structure discounts and product margins - a small seller can often only compete by buying more product than they can sell and then dumping the excess.
This is not an Apple unique issue - I know jewelers who can get name brand watches or designer jewelry at a significant discount - they buy from authorized dealers who need a specific volume to get a decent discount but can't move that much product so they offload what they can't move to other sellers.
I agree, but unfortunately, in the US, it seems the courts and our legislature wants to limit the first sale doctrine. I think they are pissing in the wind; but that's another issue.
I was in on the AppleCare thread that got closed. Here is one of my replies:
"Well, maybe people are using "educational discounts" to their hearts content, but if you ARE NOT getting the UNSEALED BOX with that purchase price, there is something shady!
I emailed the guy who sold me the AC for my iPhone. I told him about this thread, and how there seems to be some shady (cracked codes, etc) deals on ebay. I asked him if he can include the box, unsealed. If he cannot provide the unsealed box, I am not willing to take that risk.
He didn't respond for a week and a half, then I sent him another messag, saying "By lack of response, I am assuming that you do not provide unopened boxes with your AC". He emailed within hours, stating that he no longer sells AC at this time. Try back in a few weeks. I can post his ebay ID. I mean my iPhone AC works, but if Apple asks for proof, I am SOL. I never received a box for the AC. I paid $50.
So if these sellers selling AC for $150 less than Amazon does, and do not provide boxes, just codes, something is wrong. If I can get AC from Apple for $183, why wouldn't everyone else? I am going to check what I can get AC for from Apple. I just don't see why anyone would bother buying AC on ebay, if indeed they can pick up AC from apple.com for less than $200. And you don't have to worry about anything."
I am glad that Apple finally wised up and needs more info. I know that there are several serial/registration numbers inside the box, on an insert, if you will.
As far as I know, as long as you get the sealed box, you are good to go, since you have proof the AC is legit.
"Well, maybe people are using "educational discounts" to their hearts content, but if you ARE NOT getting the UNSEALED BOX with that purchase price, there is something shady!
I emailed the guy who sold me the AC for my iPhone. I told him about this thread, and how there seems to be some shady (cracked codes, etc) deals on ebay. I asked him if he can include the box, unsealed. If he cannot provide the unsealed box, I am not willing to take that risk.
He didn't respond for a week and a half, then I sent him another messag, saying "By lack of response, I am assuming that you do not provide unopened boxes with your AC". He emailed within hours, stating that he no longer sells AC at this time. Try back in a few weeks. I can post his ebay ID. I mean my iPhone AC works, but if Apple asks for proof, I am SOL. I never received a box for the AC. I paid $50.
So if these sellers selling AC for $150 less than Amazon does, and do not provide boxes, just codes, something is wrong. If I can get AC from Apple for $183, why wouldn't everyone else? I am going to check what I can get AC for from Apple. I just don't see why anyone would bother buying AC on ebay, if indeed they can pick up AC from apple.com for less than $200. And you don't have to worry about anything."
I am glad that Apple finally wised up and needs more info. I know that there are several serial/registration numbers inside the box, on an insert, if you will.
As far as I know, as long as you get the sealed box, you are good to go, since you have proof the AC is legit.
Even though I am a long-time Ebayer, I wouldn't buy Applecare off of there because of the possibility of counterfeit keys/boxes, etc. Of course, I will get flamed for saying this...and to be honest, I don't really need any proof to have that opinion, and since it's my money, I will buy from where I feel the safest.
I recently bought Applecare for my MBP from B&H...$174.00...Certified Apple Reseller...I have no worries that it is genuine.
Of course, I am not suggesting that all Applecare sold on Ebay is bogus...I just like to find the point where my budget crosses the line of risk...I tend not to go for deals from unknown sellers just because they are deals. But that's just me...
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/582542-REG/Apple_MC246LL_A_3_Year_AppleCare_for_MacBook.html
I recently bought Applecare for my MBP from B&H...$174.00...Certified Apple Reseller...I have no worries that it is genuine.
Of course, I am not suggesting that all Applecare sold on Ebay is bogus...I just like to find the point where my budget crosses the line of risk...I tend not to go for deals from unknown sellers just because they are deals. But that's just me...
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/582542-REG/Apple_MC246LL_A_3_Year_AppleCare_for_MacBook.html
This would have been a reasonable approach before october, when AppleCare consisted only of numbers, and some were fake. Now that the codes include Letters and Numbers must match the (different) Letter?Number combination from the box, counterfeiting is pretty impossible (which is why all the fly-by-night foreign sellers have vanished from eBay and only those are left with genuine Apple product).
Even in the past you were safe when buying a boxed version as the fakers only offered codes but not also a box.
Apple has taken a leaf from Adobe's playbook and created a much stronger letter/number encryption of their product, so all is well now in Applecare land.
Even in the past you were safe when buying a boxed version as the fakers only offered codes but not also a box.
Apple has taken a leaf from Adobe's playbook and created a much stronger letter/number encryption of their product, so all is well now in Applecare land.
Correct, that is what Apple writes and how they work in practice.
Remember that Apple gets the sale in both cases, either through Apple US when we buy there, or through Apple in the foreign country, if the customer buys there, so Apple in the US is quite happy to book the sale... We have seen some heated e-mails between Apple Asia and Apple US, one asking the other to intervene, and Apple US usually takes the approach to tell the local region group to mind their own business.
There is ONE registration number inside the box, like this: U9PPR4242B57KSL and a serial number on the outside of the box, like this: DP9DLYWFPG13, and both must match on Apple's data base which means that it is pretty much impossible for a counterfeiter to guess correctly one number, and then also correctly guess the matching second number.
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Yes, AppleCare is quite reasonably priced when you take into account the value of the computer, the cost of either fixing a motherboard or a display (about the only things that can go wrong on these fully integrated machines) and the fact that it is a global warranty.
Agreed. AppleCare is well-worth it (though I have BOTH AppleCare and SquareTrade on my MBP.)
I WAS going to have ONLY AppleCare but SquareTrade was offering $35 off on 3 years AND I was able to get ADH with it.
...and I got my AppleCare for $174 anyway.
While some may not see it this way, it was well worth it for me to have both, though there is some duplication.
I WAS going to have ONLY AppleCare but SquareTrade was offering $35 off on 3 years AND I was able to get ADH with it.
...and I got my AppleCare for $174 anyway.
While some may not see it this way, it was well worth it for me to have both, though there is some duplication.