Apple's Craig Federighi: Uncertainty About Face ID Will 'Melt Away' Once People Get iPhone X

[mrklaw]

I have a 6s, I was planning to switch to a plus model to get the dual camera and a bigger display but I haven't decided what to do yet.
X has OIS on both cameras, a fresh design and is slightly bigger than my 6s, but is pricey and I'm not sure I could use it one handed like I do with my 6s. 8+ is cheaper but still expensive, is far better in landscape but I'm afraid I'd get tired of the bezels and crave for the X or X+
No iPhone upgrade program in my country, so I can't buy the 8+ and get rid of it next year, I'm afraid I'd lose a lot of money buying it outright today and selling it next year.

Actually you'd likely save money compared to the IUP. IUP is a safety net - you know you'll get your phone cost covered if you upgrade. Selling privately or through a recycling service is technically more of a risk, but you'll almost certainly get a better price
[doublepost=1505723831][/doublepost]

FaceID? Never ever... I often unlocks the iPhone while its laying on my desk in "odd" angels, where it would be hard for the camera to see my face.

This time I will probably buy the iPhone8 (or just keep my iPhone6s)... But I surely hope the TouchID is back in X2, otherwise I will be closer than ever to do a radical change, that I'm currently hate even to suggest for myself... Which is shifting to the wonderful world of Android

And whats up with the "fast controls" in the upper-right corner?!?! No more access the phone with only one hand

Craig made some comments about FaceID needing to see your eyes, nose and mouth, and if your front camera can see those even at an angle, then faceID should work.

I just tried with my 6s on a table next to me at work, and the front camera is just seeing the ceiling. I have to have it surprisingly close to me for it to see my face, and even then I have to look down.

Unless the X has a much wider angle camera, I can see it being a bit annoying for desk unlocking.

 

[roeiz]

I just tried with my 6s on a table next to me at work, and the front camera is just seeing the ceiling. I have to have it surprisingly close to me for it to see my face, and even then I have to look down.

Unless the X has a much wider angle camera, I can see it being a bit annoying for desk unlocking.

yes it seems we will have to rise from our chair and get somewhat strait above the phone.
at least to get to a coverage of mouth. what a drag (not sure if i'm cynical or serious :/ )

 

[mrklaw]

yes it seems we will have to rise from our chair and get somewhat strait above the phone.
at least to get to a coverage of mouth. what a drag (not sure if i'm cynical or serious :/ )

I'm going to have to buy a new swimsuit too. And learn to swim.

 

[Michael Scrip]

Do we have to wait until November 3 to get our hands on the iPhone X at the Apple Store? Or October 27?

(or are they there now?)

I'm kinda sick of just reading about it. We need to see an iPhone X and an iPhone Plus side-by-side in a variety of modes: landscape 16x9 YouTube videos... portrait Safari web browsing and list view apps... etc.

It's gonna help the discussion by seeing actual examples.

 

[recoil80]

Actually you'd likely save money compared to the IUP. IUP is a safety net - you know you'll get your phone cost covered if you upgrade. Selling privately or through a recycling service is technically more of a risk, but you'll almost certainly get a better price

That's usually true if you sell it privately, but I don't like having to deal with this kind of stuff after I had bad experiences on ebay

Do we have to wait until November 3 to get our hands on the iPhone X at the Apple Store? Or October 27?

(or are they there now?)

I'm kinda sick of just reading about it. We need to see an iPhone X and an iPhone Plus side-by-side in a variety of modes: landscape 16x9 YouTube videos... portrait Safari web browsing and list view apps... etc.

It's gonna help the discussion by seeing actual examples.

They're going to be available in AS in November. If you go to an AS now you won't see any iPhone 8 or 8+, they'll be there on Friday.
That sucks, since you have to pre order based on pictures posted on their web page.
I remember when iPhone 6 and 6+ came out I went on the AS on Friday just to have a look at them, try both models in my hand and the day after I made the purchase. You have 14 days to change your mind and return a product, but I prefer to wait and make my decision based on what I saw in person.

 

[Michael Scrip]

They're going to be available in AS in November. If you go to an AS now you won't see any iPhone 8 or 8+, they'll be there on Friday.
That sucks, since you have to pre order based on pictures posted on their web page.
I remember when iPhone 6 and 6+ came out I went on the AS on Friday just to have a look at them, try both models in my hand and the day after I made the purchase. You have 14 days to change your mind and return a product, but I prefer to wait and make my decision based on what I saw in person.

I did the same thing when the iPhone 6 was first in stores.

I put my iPhone 5S next to an iPhone 6 and 6+ showing the same content... then took a picture with another iPhone to see the differences.

It really helps to see all the examples.

46 days to go....

 

[Jimrod]

sort of.. but not really.

if the iPhone X were a rectangle screen at 2436 x 1125 @ 458ppi ...with no notch or rounded corners ..then it would measure 5.86" diagonally instead of 5.8"

when you subtract the missing area of the notch and corners, the screen is left with the equivalent real estate of a rectangular phone measuring very very near the listed spec of 5.8" diagonal..

so, it appears they are giving an accurate area calculation and have not considered the corners and notch to be part of the spec.. but calling it a diagonal measurement isn't completely accurate since the screen isn't a rectangle.

for simplicity sake, naming the spec 'diagonal' is fair imo.. especially when you realize what you've assumed they've done.. that they are cheating you on this spec.. isn't the correct assumption.

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edit-
heh.. just noticed it actually says similar on the specs page for iPhone X.. (under Display)..
further, they're being generous with their spec by rounding down..
the actual measurement of the rectangular screen would be 5.8599" ..they're calling it 5.85" (whereas i called it 5.86" earlier)

View attachment 718634

sort of.. but not really.

if the iPhone X were a rectangle screen at 2436 x 1125 @ 458ppi ...with no notch or rounded corners ..then it would measure 5.86" diagonally instead of 5.8"

when you subtract the missing area of the notch and corners, the screen is left with the equivalent real estate of a rectangular phone measuring very very near the listed spec of 5.8" diagonal..

so, it appears they are giving an accurate area calculation and have not considered the corners and notch to be part of the spec.. but calling it a diagonal measurement isn't completely accurate since the screen isn't a rectangle.

for simplicity sake, naming the spec 'diagonal' is fair imo.. especially when you realize what you've assumed they've done.. that they are cheating you on this spec.. isn't the correct assumption.

----
edit-
heh.. just noticed it actually says similar on the specs page for iPhone X.. (under Display)..
further, they're being generous with their spec by rounding down..
the actual measurement of the rectangular screen would be 5.8599" ..they're calling it 5.85" (whereas i called it 5.86" earlier)

View attachment 718634

I think you're missing my point slightly, the screen size is technically right, I know that. My point was that those figures are a little disingenuous - at what size an you actually view unhindered content? No notch, no rounded corners. I make it around 5.4" based on those specs (being the largest diagonal you can see a squared off rectangle (ie Film/video/website) before it becomes impeded by any intrusions. It's still fine, just that anything past that notch starts to lose content so isn't pure "screen real estate".

 

[nviz22]

How long have you had your iPhone X for? How is it clunky?
[doublepost=1505691240][/doublepost]If this was the only thing that differentiated the X and the 8 you would maybe have a point. Maybe.

Because it is not fluid as TouchID. It requires an extra step for FaceID with the swipe up. If they offered an Iris Scanner like Samsung does that works just like that? Just as effective as TouchID.

 

[tigglepig]

Whilst I accept that we still don't know how FaceID will actually operate in real life situations I do wonder how well received it will be when used for things like mass transit payments. At the moment my iPhone can be in my pocket, as I walk towards the barrier on the London Underground I can put my hand in my pocket, place my finger on the TouchID sensor and be ready to tap to complete the transaction at the barrier with no slowdown and muttering of commuters behind me.

I would have thought (although like I said, we've not seen it operate in real life situations) that surely FaceID would make the process a little longer - and any delays on the London Underground during rush hour will not go down well with fellow (sometimes grumpy) commuters.

And even if it's not actually slower, I don't want people to assume I'm a tourist taking a selfie ;-)

 

[roeiz]

Whilst I accept that we still don't know how FaceID will actually operate in real life situations I do wonder how well received it will be when used for things like mass transit payments. At the moment my iPhone can be in my pocket, as I walk towards the barrier on the London Underground I can put my hand in my pocket, place my finger on the TouchID sensor and be ready to tap to complete the transaction at the barrier with no slowdown and muttering of commuters behind me.

I would have thought (although like I said, we've not seen it operate in real life situations) that surely FaceID would make the process a little longer - and any delays on the London Underground during rush hour will not go down well with fellow (sometimes grumpy) commuters.

And even if it's not actually slower, I don't want people to assume I'm a tourist taking a selfie ;-)

no Iphone X for you!

 

[Sledopyt]

Because it is not fluid as TouchID. It requires an extra step for FaceID with the swipe up. If they offered an Iris Scanner like Samsung does that works just like that? Just as effective as TouchID.

For me Touch ID seems more comfortable than Face ID. I mean I don't have to move screen to a special angel, no swiping, just touch the Home button.
So I'm not happy that iPhone X will come without Touch ID.
About Face Id. This guys say that they can make applications for "iPhone 3d scanner" and on the pictures we can see Face ID in action. Maybe this means that Face ID can have more uses than we think.

 

[EdT]

a different explanation:

here's the iPhone X and a standard 16:9 ratio:

View attachment 718550
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here's the 16:9 movie being played on the phone:
no missing video.. sides are letterboxed

View attachment 718551

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if you zoom the video to fill the screen width, yes, you'll lose some content 'under' the notch..
however, you lose a lot more (11x more) video which is being cropped out of the top&bottom.

View attachment 718552


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are you seeing what i'm saying now?

like, if it's such a concern of yours to lose some video due to the notch then it should be a much bigger concern of yours to lose 11x the amount of content to the screen edges.. but you're seemingly unaware that you're losing video if doing a zoom-to-fit type operation (on ANY phone except in the rare event that the content ratio matches exactly the screen's aspect ratio)

this will be even worse for video/images of a squarer nature (say, 4:3 or 3:2)

.

Good explanation, and it seems to check out. I think the reason a lot of people, myself included, thought that the ears were always going to eat into the screen is because most of the images and videos we've seen shows the screen that way. Probably so the image occupies all of the available screen. What people didn't know was expanding the image to full screen cropped the image.

 

[roeiz]

Good explanation, and it seems to check out. I think the reason a lot of people, myself included, thought that the ears were always going to eat into the screen is because most of the images and videos we've seen shows the screen that way. Probably so the image occupies all of the available screen. What people didn't know was expanding the image to full screen cropped the image.

it will be cropped on the X, but not on the + models

 

[JLL]

Based that on the fact thatT ouchID device is ready to use by the time you look at it. Whereas FaceID only starts to unlock ...

You can swipe up before looking and you'll be at the home screen right away.
[doublepost=1505746814][/doublepost]

yea, as i wondered on the other thread,
when videos are in the Iphone's native ratio full screen, we HAVE to watch them with the notch.
no other way around it.

What videos are in the native full screen ratio of the iPhone X?

 

[EdT]

Do we have to wait until November 3 to get our hands on the iPhone X at the Apple Store? Or October 27?

(or are they there now?)

I'm kinda sick of just reading about it. We need to see an iPhone X and an iPhone Plus side-by-side in a variety of modes: landscape 16x9 YouTube videos... portrait Safari web browsing and list view apps... etc.

It's gonna help the discussion by seeing actual examples.

Don't know how accurate this information is, although it came from an Apple sales rep I talked to last week. I asked if stores would have an iPhone X that you could look at and try some features and she said that the stores would not receive them until November, same as first customers who pre-order.

 

[fde101]

it will "melt away" once people experience the product. "You don't even think about it," he said.

​

​

More people will know it is a bad idea instead of being uncertain as to whether or not it is?

 

[flat five]

What videos are in the native full screen ratio of the iPhone X?

i don't think there's a standard size which is the same ratio as iPhone X width/height dimensions.. but..



there's 2:1 Univisium.. with that one, the video fits nearly exactly where the notch starts (ie- this is probably the best format to watch movies in on an iPhone X)

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the next one after that is 2.35:1 which is a current widescreen cinema standard.. with that one, it's skinnier than the iPhone X so it won't fill the screen top-to-bottom (in landscape)

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(there's also 1.85:1 which is a common US widescreen cinema standard (narrower than 16:9).. that one works well on iPhone X with no cropping or notch blockage.. similar to the 2:1 shown above)

--------------
what i haven't been able to find is what format the camera on the phone shoots at.. does anybody know?
i'd be interested in seeing how the videos/images shot on the camera will appear on the screen.


.
[doublepost=1505749534][/doublepost]

Craig made some comments about FaceID needing to see your eyes, nose and mouth, and if your front camera can see those even at an angle, then faceID should work.

I just tried with my 6s on a table next to me at work, and the front camera is just seeing the ceiling. I have to have it surprisingly close to me for it to see my face, and even then I have to look down.

Unless the X has a much wider angle camera, I can see it being a bit annoying for desk unlocking.

i don't think the front camera has anything to do with it and likely is not a determining factor in how wide the faceID sensors can see..

it's the IR camera, flood illuminator, and dot projector which are doing it.. not the normal front facing camera.

(that said-- i'm not saying you're wrong.. just saying that using the 6s front facing camera likely isn't much of an indicator as to what type of angle you'll need to be at for faceID)

 

[Parkin Pig]

Has Apple ever claimed to introduce anything that's not "perfect" or "magical"?

I know, Magic Mouse, Magic Keyboard, Magic Trackpad. It's just Bluetooth!

 

[mrklaw]

i don't think the front camera has anything to do with it and likely is not a determining factor in how wide the faceID sensors can see..

it's the IR camera, flood illuminator, and dot projector which are doing it.. not the normal front facing camera.

View attachment 718715



(that said-- i'm not saying you're wrong.. just saying that using the 6s front facing camera likely isn't much of an indicator as to what type of angle you'll need to be at for faceID)

Another common question is about what kind of angles and distances you can be at in relation to your iPhone to get it to unlock.

“It’s quite similar to the ranges you’d be at if you put your phone in front-facing camera mode [to take a picture],” says Federighi. Once your space from eyes to mouth come into view that would be the matching range — it can work at fairly extreme angles — if it’s down low because your phone is in your lap it can unlock it as long as it can see those features. Basically, If you’re using your phone across a natural series of angles it can unlock it.”

https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/15/i...ers-some-burning-questions-about-face-id/amp/

 

[flat five]

https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/15/i...ers-some-burning-questions-about-face-id/amp/

hmm. yeah.. i think he could of worded that better.
i interpret the first part he speaks of, the range, to mean how close/far you will need to be.. that's what he's using as a comparison to front facing camera..

then he switches to talking about angle which he describes as 'fairly extreme'..

(obviously, i could be wrong about that but i'm an optimist )

 

[Col4bin]

Don't expect Apple haters to get the actual device to actually experience the things they complain about. They have a narrative, they won't change their minds about the hate they have.

I'm a certified Apple lover, but can't get over that horrendous bump-in at the top of the screen. Anyone know how that will crop apps and such? (Perhaps was addressed but missed it. Maybe those pixels left and right of that sensor bump will be dead for gaming and other app uses?)

 

[flat five]

I'm a certified Apple lover, but can't get over that horrendous bump-in at the top of the screen. Anyone know how that will crop apps and such? (Perhaps was addressed but missed it. Maybe those pixels left and right of that sensor bump will be dead for gaming and other app uses?)

as discussed over the last few pages of this thread, it's landscape video viewing which the bump-in will likely be most intrusive seeming to some people.

with most apps however, the notch is going to be advantageous and you'll likely prefer it once you use it..

currently, all the status bar stuff is imposed over the app's canvas (or sometimes, blocks out available canvas space entirely).. numbers.app for example:






on the iPhone X, all that stuff up top has dedicated areas to sit in.. it won't be sitting on top of the app nor will the app be blocked by the notch.. you'll have more vertical space for the app without losing any of the status info.

 

[jeffsawyer]

How does FaceID work with iTunes purchases and in-app purchases? I've gotten to a payment screen a couple of times by accident or intentionally to see the total when the use touchId prompt comes up and I'm like -- oops, cancel out of this! But, this seems more difficult with FaceID? Unless it has some confirmation before just scanning your face maybe? Is there a good video demo of that working?

Just watched the video on the post: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-pay-cash-future-update-ios-11-watchos-4.2068746/ -- I can definitely see accidental purchases happening...

 

[antonis]

how do you tell which way is up with your current phone?

The place of port(s) suggest it.
The place of the side buttons suggest it.
The wallpaper as well as the time and date on top of it suggest it (especially on a phone that lights up just by turning it towards you, meaning you will always watch a turned on screen).

Finally, of course, the home button and the top and bottom bezels suggest it too. Since these are missing, would I choose a notch to tell me what side is up ? No. Would I personally prefer a narrow / super thin bottom bezel like the new Xiaomi instead of notch ? Definitely yes. But would I prefer the Xiaomi's OS ? Definitely not, so no cookie for me.

In all honesty, based on the apple I used to know; putting iPhone X side by side with the latest Xiaomi and ask me which one is from apple and which from a chinese company, while hiding the logos in the back ? I'd say the latter is the apple one and I'd feel sorry for the poor chinese designers that came up with the design of the former.

 

[flat five]

The place of port(s) suggest it.
The place of the side buttons suggest it.
The wallpaper as well as the time and date on top of it suggest it (especially on a phone that lights up just by turning it towards you, meaning you will always watch a turned on screen).

Finally, of course, the home button and the top and bottom bezels suggest it too. Since these are missing, would I choose a notch to tell me what side is up ? No. Would I personally prefer a narrow / super thin bottom bezel like the new Xiaomi instead of notch ? Definitely yes. But would I prefer the Xiaomi's OS ? Definitely not, so no cookie for me.

i'm still not exactly sure where the derogatory remarks and perceived raged aimed at me is coming from when i said..

"the notch makes it easy to see which way is up"

because if you used an iPhone X and i asked you how do you tell which way is up.. you almost definitely answer 'the notch'..

whether or not you personally like how it looks is a different matter entirely.. and you're making the mistake of taking that opinion to try to argue the fact: "the notch makes it easy to see which way is up".. because the opposite of what i said is "the notch doesn't make it easy to see which way is up".. which is false.

i like how it looks.. that's my opinion.. you don't.. thats your opinion.. argue me about that if you want.. the way you're going about it so far though just makes you seem like a jerk or someone i don't really care to converse with.
ymmv.

In all honesty, based on the apple I used to know; putting iPhone X side by side with the latest Xiaomi and ask me which one is from apple and which from a chinese company, while hiding the logos in the back ? I'd say the latter is the apple one and I'd feel sorry for the poor chinese designers that came up with the design of the former.

ok

going out on a limb here but i do think if you were faced with the situation you described, you might not so readily say the top pic was made by apple and the bottom by Xiaomi.


i would guess that you'd be more like "holy crap.. i don't like that bottom one but i'm going to guess that's the Apple designed product"