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When hiring for a senior developer then cost difference between the USA, Europe, and India is negligible. It is always around a 10% difference with the USA often being middle of the pack. Indian developers aren’t 10x cheaper, they know what they are worth and that they can command the same wages as everyone else. They also have the same expenses as any other developer and often have lived and studied in the UK.
Which just shows that the same people are exploited everywhere, and that the USA takes advantage of those same people twice when they outsource to nations without worker protection laws AND screwing American workers by refusing to hire them (no, it's not "nobody wants to work in America", and no, it's not "the skills don't exist here", though some of the latter may have merit, but was a direct consequence of companies deciding to pursue cheaper employment outside the US).
 
Points taken.. I see both sides of the pendulum. But, ultimately it is a business transaction for services from that regard. I have friends the work remotely here in Canada for Companies in the US. They are solid workers with a lot of brilliant ideas and products to show. My issue is when it comes to basic duties of being in the office when you are fully capable of being there. The employer is requesting what was expected of you when you were hired, but you are using your "credentials" and "self interests" to disrupt that expectation.. It is self entitlement to me. I think that is disrespectful. That's just my morals. My wife sees in her business that a lot of peopel have abused the luxury and moved towns during the pandemic without the employer even being aware. Now they are being asked back to work and the employees are surprising them with the news that they relocated. It's completely unethical. Sure, maybe it isn't exactly "Wokeness". But I don't know how to better describe that self entitlement expectation. I worked in an era of respect for your boss. You follow the expectation they laid out for you until you decide you would like to move on to something else. You can give suggestions but you don't tell them how to run their business just because you think you can.
I’ll throw a wrench into that just a bit. Some “self entitlement” is good. There are a lot of people out there who are entitled to better compensation than what they are getting because they don’t know their own value in the work place. I have managed a few and for some right out of school I have also pointed this out to them with the caveat “I won’t do this again.”
It’s a value judgement. And also supply and demand of labor. I’m this particular situation the employee no longer feels that the company is meeting their compensation because the situation changed, admittedly outside the control of the company, but it did. And it’s turning out that they _can_ demand that of the labor market. This is capitalism. And just like during our stronger unionization periods workers are starting to take control again. And while I can appreciate that it can look distasteful against where we were four years ago expectations were different then. I can’t see that as a fair comparison. The fit hit the shan, so to speak, in the last two years and we are all, businesses and individuals alike, renegotiating these deals. Get what you can from the business! It is always good to ask for more and be talked down in a negotiation than be working up to it.
That all said. Maybe I can get a yacht with satellite internet for my office… 🤔
I’ll keep ya posted…
 
I'm speaking from personal experience, not from claims made by others. I have no doubt that productivity can be much higher when working from home. But that productivity may be used to do the wrong things faster. It's like somebody once said to me: I love coffee. It makes me work so much faster. His wife then commented: yes, it allows you to do stupid things much faster.

The challenge is in creating the right interactions, whether remote or in person, such that the productivity is used todo things well. For some that requires very little interaction, and for others it requires a lot of interaction.
That's fine. The thing is, you made a lot of absolute statements and didn't follow them with any evidence. Since you're speaking from personal experience, that means it is anecdotal. Your experience does not act as a model to judge all other situations. That's why I reacted as I did (and because the phrases seemed to be very much like a copy/paste of other promotions of working in offices, such as the Apple statement, so it was a red flag to me).
 
Having to come in to the office 3 days a week isn't the end of the world...that is unless someone at work gives you COVID and you die! Then I guess it is the end of your world!

In the old days, people went postal too.

A heavily armed employee shot and killed seven co-workers today in the offices of a suburban Boston Internet company, "an incredible workplace tragedy" that may have stemmed from a tax dispute with the IRS, according to prosecutors and witnesses.

Amid Christmas wreaths and other holiday decorations, authorities said, Michael M. McDermott, 42, was armed with an assault rifle, a 12-gauge shotgun and a semiautomatic pistol as he methodically gunned down colleagues in the first-floor offices of Edgewater Technology Inc., an Internet consulting firm about 10 miles north of downtown Boston.

Four women and three men were shot dead, but none of the other 80 workers inside the building was injured, officials said.


-- Washington Post
 
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Good for him. He wasn't happy with the flexibility he was offering and he'll go on to find another rewarding career that fits in with his lifestyle.

Crazy how angry some people get because others don't want to work 40 hours in cubicles. It's 2022 and you shouldn't be forced to make a living like that.

Lots of fossil takes from people who do not work in IT, nor have ever written a single line of code.
 
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My office (not a cubicle, for what it's worth) was 20 degrees too hot in the winter and cold in the summer. Of course, the thermostat is regulated by facilities and I actually got a lecture by someone because I attached magnet vent blockers on the ones blowing directly at me.
Seems right, your just a human resource after all…
 
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I don't think that @dysamoria is a rarity. In my office, we have 50% of the people who are of their own accord coming back to the office 100% of the time, and 50% of the people are trying to find a new balance between 100% WFH and 80% WFH. Only about 1% of our people want 100% WFH. 50% want to work 100% in the office. Who is the rarity in my company?
You might be dealing with a selection bias here; if your coworkers are all in a similar line of work and socioeconomic status, your responses to this situation might also be similar. You asked if you were a rarity for a list of things that sounded like privilege to me (I'm not disparaging you; I'm saying that you probably are in a much better situation than most employees throughout the whole world of office work).

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, or mis-remembering your post.
 
I suspect a lot of the work can still be done from home. It's not like they are building Apple Watches with a box of radio shack parts.
Speaking as someone who’s done a bit of chip design the first phases of it are all in software simulation which can totally be done at home. By the time you get to actual chip testing you’re all masked up and in a clean room anyway so I would hope most of these folks stayed in the office anyway 😁. Can’t speak to larger systems integration tho.
 
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Did you see the guy's resume and list of impressive accomplishments, including books written about AI?

Obviously not.

So would you point to where in Apple's products machine learning has improved in the last two years, and also an argument why it would have been a worse improvement if they had worked from the office?
 
Everyone who says they don’t like working in the office due to interruptions from coworkers are severely undervaluing the positive role those interruptions actually have in the long term - IMO.

That said, I think a hybrid work model works well where you can realize the benefits of WFH and in office.
Everyone? Isn't it possible that there are people who hate their office experience for entirely valid reasons?

That's a rhetorical question, because I have heard and read countless comments by people about toxic workplaces and they have every right to want to leave them (but most cannot, because they don't have the power to dictate their conditions).
 
Speaking as someone who’s done a bit of chip design the first phases of it are all in software simulation which can totally be done at home. By the time you get to actual chip testing you’re all masked up and in a clean room anyway so I would hope most of these folks stayed in the office anyway 😁. Can’t speak to larger systems integration tho.

I have a friend at one of the big chip design companies and he told me the hardware that his engineers use. Very big systems. I suspect that these systems are on the cloud but we discussed this a long time ago. If it is on the cloud, then it could be done from home assuming a strong client and good bandwidth. His engineers (he oversees several hundred) were WFH as was he for a while so I assume that they could WFH on large projects.
 
There are some places working from home makes sense. But there are simply some lazy people as well. The government work from home are one of the most abused work situations during Covid.

My friend needs desktop work computer at hospital to chart. The comptuter is physically broken. Like hard drive failure. There is zero remote IT support that can fix a physically broken computer. Yet the lazy IT guys took them 2 weeks to come to the hospital to replace it. 2 freaking weeks. Cause only one IT guy visits the hospital (it probably has 1000 plus computers) each days. The other guys will not volunteer to come to face to face to the hospital.

These remote workers need to come to grip sometimes you gotta physically come in and fix the problem

Same with Human Resources. There are vital paper documents that need to be handed physically to processed.

So there has to be a balance.

I’m in the medical field. And you simply need face to face interactions for most visits. “Virtual ER visits” seriously. If u got a problem. Got to the hospital asap.
Wait wait wait. You said "the government work from home are one of the most abused work situations during Covid" and then you proceeded to describe a HOSPITAL's problem with IT people. Are you outside the US and talking about a government hospital? In the USA, I am unaware of government hospitals. Pretty sure we don't have those anymore.
 
Wait wait wait. You said "the government work from home are one of the most abused work situations during Covid" and then you proceeded to describe a HOSPITAL's problem with IT people. Are you outside the US and talking about a government hospital? In the USA, I am unaware of government hospitals. Pretty sure we don't have those anymore.

We have the VA hospitals.

There's the National Cancer Institute and they run clinical trials so they must have a hospital environment to run those trials.

But most hospitals are non-profit, or for-profit. Some are church-related. Some are university related.
 
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Working can be in the shower, at the beach, driving someplace, or seeing something that triggers an idea or solution. You might even come up with a solution while you are asleep.
Indeed. Kary Mullis, inventor of the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) method, off of which the standard covid-19 tests have been based, had the idea come to him while driving.

The great irony of course is that due to the exponential amplification (cycle counts) to which a minuscule sample is subjected per PCR, Mullis also insisted that it is not to be used in a diagnostic context—more so just for sample collection/analysis. Using the PCR to justify the modern “pandemic” is an unprecedented blight on scientific integrity and ethics; rather suspicious, too, especially given that he happened to die in August 2019.

“One Friday night I was driving, as was my custom, from Berkeley up to Mendocino where I had a cabin far away from everything off in the woods,” recalled Mullis during his 1993 presentation in Stockholm. On that dark road, he had “solved the most annoying problems in DNA chemistry in a single lightning bolt. Abundance and distinction. With two oligonucleotides, DNA polymerase, and the four nucleoside triphosphates, I could make as much of a DNA sequence as I wanted…”
 
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I work in the public sector and my employer has been bleeding IT and software developers since they mandated a return to the office in late 2020. Once someone realizes that it is ridiculous to get into slacks and sit in a cube city to RDP into a server, console into a SAN or vSphere, or access a git repository...you're never going to make them see mandatory in-office any other way than a wage cage. Tech also happens to pretty much perpetually be in demand so some other entity that offers full-remote or office optional is going to poach your talent...and nobody gives a damn that your whole university model value-add hinges on maintaining the appearances that in-person operations are happening.
I’d create a tiered pay plan remote work low, show up high. In 3 years I’d get rid of the low ones.
 
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Looks like Apple's work force is about 50% snowflakes. What a bunch of spoiled children. Apple should stand their ground and take on the thousands of others who would love to come to work and take their jobs at Apple.
I think they need to open the flood gates and over hire for a few years and run off the lazy bums
 
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I have a friend at one of the big chip design companies and he told me the hardware that his engineers use. Very big systems. I suspect that these systems are on the cloud but we discussed this a long time ago. If it is on the cloud, then it could be done from home assuming a strong client and good bandwidth. His engineers (he oversees several hundred) were WFH as was he for a while so I assume that they could WFH on large projects.
This fits. I’ve not done it for a decade or so but the chip simulation is not light computation. Not only are you seeing if the chip runs but you are measuring the thermals and voltage at all the junctures. And I can only imagine it has become more sophisticated.
 
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This guy has no respect for his employer. Must be nice to have the luxury to piss all over your employer and "protest". Good Luck finding a new job when your image is now, "My Feelings First". There are many more like him to choose from that would be more than happy to get back working as a team in person to get projects done. Unbelievable how entitled this culture thinks it is. Look at his picture, screams Entitled Woke Child 2.0. He made his choice, good luck finding a new job with your new reputation. Bozo.
🙄 This is like a game of antisocial bingo...
 
It's 37 pages because of the reason he quit.

Which is what I've already explained... We all have the freedom to make the choices that we feel are right for us.

This man wants to work remotely, it's nobody's business why. Maybe he wants to spend more time with his family, maybe he hates commuting, maybe he's lazy... Either way, he has made the choice that he felt suited him.

Now people are upset because a man that has choices of employment (and he does because he's well respected in his field) is exercising that choice?

This is the most ridiculous thing I've seen all week and it's Sunday. Imagine being this invested in the life choices of strangers lol.
 
I understand, but it’s a pretty dangerous game you are playing in the long run.

An experienced developer in California costs almost 10 times the price of an experienced Indian developer (I'm not talking of cheap consulting service, but real hiring an experienced dev here providing very good service).
How long will it last before companies understand that you are, in no way, 10 times more productive and they can hire 5 overseas devs while cutting costs by a factor of 2?

Right now, managers are happy because you are there. They are the boss and seeing you in person gives them this feeling of being a boss that remote work doesn't.
Once everyone is online, this big psychological factor stops being considered and it's all about productivity per $ spent.
And I'm sorry but we, western programmers, are way less productive per dollar spent than the other half of the world.

Okay, then let them hire foreign developers... They're free to do so.

There's a reason manufacturing is outsourced to Mexico and China. Labor is cheaper there. Nothing changes with programmers. If a company could get by with a workforce comprising of solely Indian developers, then that's all they would hire.

No one is doing you a favor by giving you a job. You're given a job because your output exceeds your compensation, it's simply business.

Companies need western developers, otherwise we wouldn't be hired.
 
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