Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Same, but I concluded that this is only because very few people truly care about their work here. They're just coasting and taking the big paychecks. I used to WFH all the time before covid at a startup, and stuff got done. Anyway yeah I'm interviewing elsewhere now, after having my job for almost 4 years.
Careful; some of these commentators will call you a jumper for not staying around longer at that job...
 
"the pandemic is pretty much over and done with"

what planet are you on?
Planet Earth 🥰 Seems many with the mental illness that is ‘long covid’ (clutch pearls here) left long ago….

Do what thou wilt, but stop thinking you’re in the right for telling people to stop living and suffocate themselves over a spicy cold/flu that disproportionately affects the diabetic, obese, and ventilated (who die because of diabetes/obesity/ventilators btw).
 
Lol really? Show me 5 major corporations where the entire team is ok with work at home and allowed to do so now that pandemic is pretty much over and done with and has major expensive commercial property’s. Especially those with major impact on the world and is publicly traded not a small team of 100 or less.

I’ll wait.
I was at an in-person conference for work last week. They know of several dozen people — adding up to about 10% of attendees — who have tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 infection since, and I'm sure there are more still who didn't think to notify the sponsor organization upon receiving their positive test result.

But sure, the pandemic is "pretty much over."
 
If you pay less then the workers leave and get a job with a higher wage than what you where paying before. If I changed job now for any reason I am looking at a extra 20% on what I earn just now for a office job or a WFH job. The market for developers is very competitive and due to COVID I could now get hired by someone in Germany, Scotland, or even Japan.

Apple is just one of many companies and not necessarily the best to work for nor the most prestigious. It is just a job, like any other. Jobs pay so I can do my things, I don’t live to do my job.
Well, companies in general, pay you based off the cost of living where you live, it saves a company money by not overpaying. I get moving jobs for a better paying one. But assuming you'll get paid a Silicone Valley salary when living in places like North Carolina, Iowa or Ohio is too fantasy land.
 
Apple and other tech companies don't even have unions, at least not for these full-time engineering employees. Lo and behold, we're paid above min wage to say the least.
Wait. What? You think you're paid above minimum wage BECAUSE there's NO union?
 
Being off-topic I'll still reply and say I do hate having to pay for your poor choices. You made the decision to persue higher education. You made the decision to get a degree in a poor paying profession.

I and others should not have to pay YOUR bills.

We actually have a history of paying for college bills:

Back in the 1970s and 1980s, there was far more grant money than loans in aid so those of us that went to college back then had much lower college prices and more grant money. The lower college prices were probably the bigger factor though. UMass Amherst was $800/year in my first year of college. I believe that states did more to support higher education as well. California is an example of a state that does a good job at this today but a lot of other states don't provide the level of affordable higher ed compared to what they used to.

There were nice tax credits to companies to provide tuition reimbursement to employees for college courses leading to degrees. These seem to fade quite a bit in the mid-1990s. I had all but one year of college paid for by employers and therefore paid for by the Federal Government due to education tax credits.

The company that I retired from had a program to help with student loan expenses as a recruitment tool. It doesn't benefit those without college loans but a lot of young graduates with Computer Science degrees that have lots of options are looking for student loan assistance. It would be nice if it were extended to other degree areas.

Some employers, like McDonalds and Starbucks, do provide tuition reimbursements. Things might be better with more generous tax credits for tuition reimbursement.
 
That just incentivises everyone to live in the highest cost of living area they can find, because then they’ll be best positioned for retirement.
That is what ends up happening anyways. Just look at the Bay Area, NYC or other up and coming cities. However, cost of living will eat into any salary increase you see. That's why all companies use the cost of living as one of the metrics for salary/compensation.
 
Wonder how his next employer reacts when he asks why he quit Apple and his answer is “I wasn’t allowed to work from home anymore”
Obviously he's not going to accept a job offer from a company that does not allow him to work from home, at this point...
 
  • Like
Reactions: BootLoxes
There is another interesting phenomena of work life. When I shifted from engineering to finance, I got involved in a lot of budget negotiations. It amazed me how many issues would not be resolved by email or teleconference, but would get resolved face-to-face. I suppose there is something about observing body language and human contact that facilitates arriving at a common understanding. On some level, I guess we are still social animals. Perhaps, this is one reason everyone from heads of state to small business owners still make an effort to meet in person.

To be honest, at this point in time, I have no idea what you’re on about. But my opinion on this subject is as I stated.
1, if you can do your job from home, then great. It’s better for the mind and the soul to be free from the shackles of the 9-5.
2, in some situations, it’s better to be working as a unit, chatting, bouncing ideas, just being ‘as one’ in a close knit environment.

This is hugely dependent on the type of sector you work in, so I’m targeting the higher echelons of Apple as per the op.
I see it as if a job can be done remotely, but if you can't adapt to being a remote worker or working with remote workers you need to be replaced. Sure, some tasks benefit from face-to-face interaction, but often that's due to one or more people dragging their heels and being unwilling to change the way they approach problems.

In the 2000s if you couldn't learn to use a computer you were let go. In the 2010s if you couldn't adapt to online in the office you were let go. Employees need to understand that not every employee will be in the office, and if you can't adapt you will be let go.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dysamoria
It’s not like they have been doing a stellar job. Good riddance. Apple can actually hire somebody who will actually move Siri forwards and compete with google.
Or maybe it has nothing to do with this guy and everything to do with Apple management's choices, as reported by a MacRumors article some time ago...
 
Many people here think that individual productivity (or the feeling of individual productivity) is important. It's not. Company wide productivity is not the sum of individual productivity. You can have a lots smart people working very hard, and still produce cr*p, buggy, and un-interesting new products. I've seen lots of startups, with smart people, fail, after eating millions in investment.

Apple has the data. They know whether the stuff they started developing 3 or 4 years ago has better sales, better customer satisfaction potential, and less bugs than the new projects started last year (where employees felt more productive due to less commute time, etc.). If that data says slightly miserable employees (due to commuting) produced better stuff, and the best competition is only offering equally miserable jobs, then they will make them come back to work in the office.

And that will be good for both Apple's customers... and shareholders.

Was this like the data that they had on keyboards in 2016?
 
  • Love
Reactions: nebojsak
At least we can count on the massive deficit of employees at large, for now at least.

I don’t remember where I read it anymore, but “unretirement” is a thing, and not only because inflation, but because many many jobs are not being replaced and people that got bored doing nothing decided to give it a shot a little longer.

There were also points to so many important jobs taken by senior people with absolutely no one in line to replace them afterwards.

For your point location, while true, I might use that to get away… I live in a crowded city not because of my own liking, but because “that’s how it’s done”: go to the city, to its university, then job, build career… make sure to always suffer the crowded spaces, packed metros, noisy alarms of ambulances running around, etc.

All of this from a personal point of view that is… some people love that permanent chaotic state.

 
  • Wow
Reactions: dysamoria
Because YOUR commute is 6 minutes, and your wife's commute is 4 minutes, then everyone else must have the same commute. 🙄 Come on...
i didn’t say that. On the other hand the person I responded to said ABSOLUTELY no reason to go the office….I was much more flexible in my wording asking that people not exaggerate the truth.
 
An example is the price of a barrel has dropped significantly compared to what it was 2 months or so ago, yet prices at the pump are still artificially kept extremely high. I’m in the U.K., I can go to a Shell or BP petrol station and still pay over 170 pence a litre, that’s about 2 dollars 22 I think, yet Shell and BP are the very companies who own all the gas and oil rigs digging it out the ground, they directly control the markets, they have both announced the biggest profits for a decade in the first quarter of this year, all due to massive increases in heating and fuel costs being paid to them all approved, and in the case of heating bills, enforced by the British government.

Working from home is very attractive if you don’t have to line the pockets of oil executives and share holders to do it. And control your own heating as the weather warms. I’m sure it’s more complicated then this, but record profits for a decade in the multi billions due to price increases is very black and white.
It's astounding that people can have these facts staring them in the face, and STILL reject the reality, blaming their pet hate for inflation, etc., and voting against their own interests. It's indistinguishable from religious zealotry.
 
Tell that to the programmers at game companies, who were laid off by their employers to boost the quarter financials, after finishing all that crunch time demanded by management to complete a video game by an overly optimistic arbitrary release date... And this even gets the CEO a bonus.


"If you're in tech" really does a LOT of heavy lifting there in your sentence.

I was in tech, and it did nothing for me. Tech support was turned into a cheap labor position filled by anyone who can read a three-ring-binder and hand someone a replacement disposable device, because corporations don't want skilled workers when it's cheaper to hire anyone who can read scripts and to treat products like disposable garbage (and that's how they treat their employees). So then I went to tech training. HAH, no one wants to pay for that either (and my boss was a sociopath). Why train people on the tech when you can just throw them in on the deep end and expect them to have the skillset of 12 different job titles.

But game developers being laid off to make more profit... those workers are definitely in possession of far deeper skills than I ever had, they often came with degrees, and yet they were STILL disposable to their employers.

The majority of people aren't making a ton of money. If that's the circle you travel in, you really need to examine your privilege.

I tend to think of tech like Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, Google, Facebook, Salesforce, etc. And tech jobs as engineers. Sorry if I was unclear.

Activision stock was about $12 ten years ago. It is $78 as of Friday so that's a really great return for a decade. But you could also have just put the money into an S&P 500 Index fund and had pretty good gains.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dysamoria
I do hope you get there too. I would wish for everyone to love their job. After all, you spend a significant part of your life doing work. My boss once put it nicely: life is too short to spend it with people you don't like, and doing things you don't like.

If I won the lottery I would also still be working. I would probably work remotely from nicer places on the face of the earth. I would travel in business class, probably :) .

How about if you got cancer?

Getting cancer changed my perspective on work quite a bit.
 
  • Sad
Reactions: dysamoria
People can be connected to reality without standing in front of each other in the same space. Social interactions are different, yes. Creative interaction is probably different, too. However, the majority of office work does not require face-to-face interaction. Video conferencing has existed for decades, and has facilitated plenty of "reality-based" interactions with people and businesses that would otherwise never have been able to work together.

The question of there being a qualitative difference does not negate the fact that a LOT of people want to stop being in offices to do work for they can do without wasting time on a commute, office socializing, meetings that could've been emails, getting illnesses from coworkers, being micromanaged, etc.

Forcing everyone into the one monolithic model that YOU believe is good will only result in annoying or driving away the people who aren't like you. So of course everyone who dislikes WFH has chosen to attack this resigning Apple employee, instead of accepting that he exercised his free agency and left Apple because they wouldn't accommodate his working preferences. That's his choice to make.

Most jobs require a collaboration with a team. Unless you are a craftsman or something along those lines.
So for all other jobs, the importance to be face-to-face is there.
 
"Worker output"...

I think people are just fed up, on a mass scale. I don't think morale is low enough for a general strike across all industries, but it's certainly enough for people to stop working and trying so hard, especially when they realize there's zero loyalty shown to them by their employers and that their pay is a fraction of a fraction of an executive's pay. The general awareness of just how abusive this system is has finally started to seep into the public awareness.

The reason is the Omicron wave.

People can't seem to read charts.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dysamoria
I did not know that, I assumed that everyone at least worked some time at home during the crisis. The example is indeed moot.

But Apple is so paranoid (for so many reasons) I don’t think it can keep the work at home system. It should also try to find solution to problems like housing and travel time.

It’s not that long ago but I’m pretty sure what shocked me most was they downloaded all of this data inside Johny Srouji’s lab. I cannot imagine that happening in Ive’s lab and not because of any ill intent towards Srouji - just that maybe Apple has slackened off in some ways and is now going after the wrong targets.
 
I understand, but it’s a pretty dangerous game you are playing in the long run.

An experienced developer in California costs almost 10 times the price of an experienced Indian developer (I'm not talking of cheap consulting service, but real hiring an experienced dev here providing very good service).
How long will it last before companies understand that you are, in no way, 10 times more productive and they can hire 5 overseas devs while cutting costs by a factor of 2?

Right now, managers are happy because you are there. They are the boss and seeing you in person gives them this feeling of being a boss that remote work doesn't.
Once everyone is online, this big psychological factor stops being considered and it's all about productivity per $ spent.
And I'm sorry but we, western programmers, are way less productive per dollar spent than the other half of the world.
So what you're saying is, employers need to be better regulated in order to get them to participate in civilization, rather than leaching off of it...
 
Thanks for mentioning the open floor-plan office layout at Apple's main campus. When they moved in, it was very much in the tech news about how many workers HATED the place for this very reason (and also the glass walls and doors that were a human hazard). People who need to FOCUS on tasks HATE open floor-plans. Bosses usually have offices with walls and doors, yet many of them want a panopticon for their reports.

Jobs said that Apple should go its own way, not be busy asking "what would Steve do"... And yet we continue to see Jobs' notions adhered to like he was a deity. He was wrong about some things. Citing Jobs for ammo to get people back into an open floor-plan building that many (if not most) workers actually hate is one of the striking examples of why adhering to his ideologies mindlessly is a BAD THING.

Declaration: I’m a senior dev and I’m also on the wrong end of the autism spectrum. They made me work in an open plan office for years. It was dreadful - people not operating at my level cannot begin to comprehend the disastrous impact of interrupting me, before you add in autism’s disdain for breaking concentration. That’s why I’ve worked from home for ten years and actually did my best work during the lockdowns. I was no longer tied to an arbitrary 9-5 and one of the mechanisms local government in the UK used to get COVID support payments out to people was based on an API I wrote at 4am one morning.

May have got done in the office but certainly not on time and not with the same quality.
 
  • Love
Reactions: dysamoria
I think they should give people the option to work from home BUT have a camera on the entire time they're on work hours and be monitored while they're working. If they have a problem with this then they need to work from the office as their other option. You cannot be away from your desk at home during work hours. If you're ever off camera for longer than 5 minutes, (3 warning rule) then fired. Shouldn't be an issue since people are super productive at home and way more productive than in the office lol.

I was on a customer call many years ago. A large HMO's patient management system was down and I was sent to diagnose and fix the problem if possible. So I flew there, checked into my hotel, got dressed and went to the office. They explained the problem (it was vague) and the put me in a chair in front of a terminal with two VPs and a sales manager in the room. I looked at crash dumps, logs and did some database page dumps for about five hours. During that time, the people in the room asked me a bunch of questions about what I was doing and what I was trying to do.

You can imagine how helpful that was.

So I said that I was leaving at night and went for a drive for about an hour to work out the problem in my mind. I had some ideas from looking at all of the data and tried to piece together my best analysis of what happened. Eventually I put it together and went back to the hotel, told them that I likely had it figured out, got a few hours of sleep and then went back in in the morning and explained the problem and the solution.

Working can be in the shower, at the beach, driving someplace, or seeing something that triggers an idea or solution. You might even come up with a solution while you are asleep.

They did manage to get their system back up and running so that their doctors could get back to work.

I have another example of this with a large airline parts manufacturer where their production line was completely shut down. That was one time when we worked around the clock in the office as I needed another engineer with specific expertise. Sometimes you need to work alone without distractions. Sometimes you need to work closely with other people.

Fredrich August von Kekule, a famous German chemist, was attempting to determine the shape of the benzene molecule, which was known to have six carbon atoms. In 1865, reflecting upon his discovery of the hexagonal-ring like structure, he asserted that the solution came to him in a dream1; however, it is not clear if he was in rapid eye movement (REM) sleep dreaming or if he was in non-REM (NREM) sleep imagery. It is possible to think of this type of discoveries as an expression of creativity, i.e. the ability to use existing pieces of information and combine them in novel patterns leading to greater understanding and new solutions. Preliminary support of the role of sleep in creative thinking comes from a recent study by Wagner et al.2; these authors asked normal participants to perform a cognitive task, the Number Reduction Task. In this task, participants are required to understand a set of stimulus-response sequences and supply a single representative numerical answer. Improvement in task performance may be gradual (i.e., by slowly increasing response speed), or abrupt (after insight into an abstract rule underlying all sequences). They found that 59% of the participants that were allowed to sleep were able to perform the task in a time that was 70% shorter than the other group that did not sleep and suggested that sleep may facilitate insight-related problem solving. Here we report the results of the first study showing a direct complex correlation between sleep architecture or microstructure and creativity in normal controls.


 
Last edited:
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.