Apple's Greg Joswiak Talks Mobile Gaming

[DNichter]

Fair enough, closer than I thought.

There's obviously still a huge market for PC/console gaming, but I feel like the mobile market will continue to grow at a different level. An iPad with a controller and some high quality games is a great gaming platform. I actually feel like there has been a revival for PC gaming as of late so that could certainly change.

 

[Bishope1999]

Because they don't have nearly the user base that mobile does. This means something to developers. The majority of money is in mobile gaming as well.

Really? PC gaming has about 35 million users, the PS4 has sold nearly 80 million console's, Xbox One is somewhere above 30 million since the last time they actual numbers, Nintendo Switch has sold close to 15 million. Consider that user base and the fact that when a game is released, it's usually priced at $60, although it will drop in price down the road. Average game may sell between 5 million to 11 million, GTA 5 being an abnormal one selling over 70 million and all the money it keeps making online. Also, consider the "optional" DLC content and season pass, which developers also make money from.

If it's based off numbers alone, have all the Candy Crush players help out in revenue.

Then we can talk about actual gaming performance and gameplay, which is what actually matters, if you want to.

 

[Vanilla35]

I can't get on board with the touch screen controls, far too finicky and inaccurate for any of the kinds of games I enjoy playing.

Completely agree with this here. It's just not going to be a great experience on a touchscreen. You can do alright with shooters as casual gaming, or casual racing games, but until you get a 3D controller instead of just a 2D glass surface (where you constantly feel like you're smashing your fingers; which doesn't seem important until you actually think about it, or switch to a controller). There is just a certain freedom to it that encourages enjoyment.

I can't imagine spending hours playing an RPG on an iPhone (and I play a lot of games), sounds like torture.

As a heavy iOS gamer, it pisses me off greatly that Apple limits the brightness lower and lower anytime I play an graphically intense game.

What’s the point if I can’t see the enemy because the brightness is so low

They have to curb the massive throttling that takes place after playing games for 15+ minutes. Nothing they can really do about it, expect maybe make their displays twice as efficient. I agree it's a limitation though.

 

[DNichter]

Really? PC gaming has about 35 million users, the PS4 has sold nearly 80 million console's, Xbox One is somewhere above 30 million since the last time they actual numbers, Nintendo Switch has sold close to 15 million. Consider that user base and the fact that when a game is released, it's usually priced at $60, although it will drop in price down the road. Average game may sell between 5 million to 11 million, GTA 5 being an abnormal one selling over 70 million and all the money it keeps making online. Also, consider the "optional" DLC content and season pass, which developers also make money from.

If it's based off numbers alone, have all the Candy Crush players help out in revenue.

Then we can talk about actual gaming performance and gameplay, which is what actually matters, if you want to.

Okay, so if you combine all of the different platforms you mentioned, you get about 160M users. iOS right now has 800M users. I am not hating on PC/console games, I am not a gamer at all, I just see a much higher potential for gaming in the mobile sector. Sure, you can take PC's and consoles with high specs and of course they will have better gameplay and performance. I am not talking about that at all.

 

[nwcs]

SpellTower creator Zach Gage told TechCrunch that games have "never had the cultural reach that they do now" because of the App Store

Um, tell that to Pac-Man in the 1980s or the original Super Mario Brothers... Heck, Pac-Man also had a cartoon, a breakfast cereal and a top 25 song (Pac-Man Fever) among other things. I’d say it had a very big cultural reach — more than most of these games.

 

[DNichter]

Um, tell that to Pac-Man in the 1980s or the original Super Mario Brothers... Heck, Pac-Man also had a cartoon, a breakfast cereal and a top 25 song (Pac-Man Fever) among other things. I’d say it had a very big cultural reach — more than most of these games.

Times change

 

[Bishope1999]

Okay, so if you combine all of the different platforms you mentioned, you get about 160M users. iOS right now has 800M users. I am not hating on PC/console games, I am not a gamer at all, I just see a much higher potential for gaming in the mobile sector. Sure, you can take PC's and consoles with high specs and of course they will have better gameplay and performance. I am not talking about that at all.

So it's only about installed user base? I disagree with you, although I'll respect your opinion. Almost everyone has a mobile phone, so naturally the user base will be larger. Having said that, there are so many limitation on Mobile gaming that developers would not seriously consider that platform to release Triple A games. Also consider that I didn't include stats from last gen systems, PC's don't even need "next gen."

Since you mentioned that you are not a gamer, games on mobile may be outstanding for you. If you ever give true gaming a chance, you will understand why developers can't bring a $100 million to $200 million production cost triple A game as a free download to mobile. The massive limitations on mobile gaming prevents them from even creating a game they envision.

 

[DNichter]

So it's only about installed user base? I disagree with you, although I'll respect your opinion. Almost everyone has a mobile phone, so naturally the user base will be larger. Having said that, there are so many limitation on Mobile gaming that developers would not seriously consider that platform to release Triple A games. Also consider that I didn't include stats from last gen systems, PC's don't even need "next gen."

Since you mentioned that you are not a gamer, games on mobile may be outstanding for you. If you ever give true gaming a chance, you will understand why developers can't bring a $100 million to $200 million production cost triple A game as a free download to mobile. The massive limitations on mobile gaming prevents them from even creating a game they envision.

Yes, my original statement was about mobile gaming and developers. iOS is a great place to be for developers because of the user base, new tech and tools every year, and consistency across the platform. They have access to a whole different level of users than they ever had before. I am not saying mobile games are outstanding, I am saying that mobile gaming as a whole is a much more lucrative market for developers.

 

[DevNull0]

Back in the iPhone 1 to 4s era, I was into mobile gaming. Now the genre is so full of f2p iap hell that I just can't stand the whole platform. So many games now are defective by design just to trick the suckers into puking up tons of cash, and Apple is a huge contributor to the problem by featuring so many of the worst offenders at their keynotes. Oz anyone?

I haven't downloaded an iOS game in years, and don't plan to any time soon. The whole market is a cesspool.

And while I'm well aware that a few games don't have the disease, even some mentioned in the summary, a few good Apples in a rotten bushel don't save the bushel. A console with 2 good titles and truckloads of shovelware would be crap, and that's where iOS/Android gaming currently is.

 

[Bishope1999]

Yes, my original statement was about mobile gaming and developers. iOS is a great place to be for developers because of the user base, new tech and tools every year, and consistency across the platform. They have access to a whole different level of users than they ever had before. I am not saying mobile games are outstanding, I am saying that mobile gaming as a whole is a much more lucrative market for developers.

I don't agree with it being more lucrative, but ok. Games in general are different in mobile vs the rest. Mobile will have to keep inviting new developers, because most major companies won't and can't release these games on a mobile phone.

Which is why it puts the Nintendo Switch in a great spot. They can deliver the games developers want, with limitations, but no throttling or taking hit in other areas. It leaves it in a unique place as a mobile gaming device and a home console.

 

[DNichter]

I don't agree with it being more lucrative, but ok. Games in general are different in mobile vs the rest. Mobile will have to keep inviting new developers, because most major companies won't and can't release these games on a mobile phone.

Which is why it puts the Nintendo Switch in a great spot. They can deliver the games developers want, with limitations, but no throttling or taking hit in other areas. It leaves it in a unique place as a mobile gaming device and a home console.

See the link below for more detail on the numbers. Obviously you can see the trend here through 2020. Mobile gaming is the most lucrative place for developers. That's true, Nintendo made a good choice there to play is both spaces.

https://newzoo.com/insights/article...-108-9-billion-in-2017-with-mobile-taking-42/

 

[Bishope1999]

See the link below for more detail on the numbers. Obviously you can see the trend here through 2020. Mobile gaming is the most lucrative place for developers. That's true, Nintendo made a good choice there to play is both spaces.

https://newzoo.com/insights/article...-108-9-billion-in-2017-with-mobile-taking-42/

Thanks, yes I've seen that report, although it mentions that a large portion of Mobile game revenue comes from Asia, which isn't mainly controlled by iOS as their companies are making great phones. If Asia takes that large portion, that revenue isn't tapping all those iOS users you mentioned.

Yes, the revenue is there for the mobile market, but at the same time these are different developers from the rest of the industry. I still don't think this qualifies as PC and Console not being at the level of Mobile gaming, but since you mentioned that you are mainly focusing on install base, ok then. Don't see it as the most lucrative as the mobile market is flooded with f2p games, while one Console or PC game vs the biggest mobile game will show a big difference in revenue for that developer.

 

[69650]

I’ve stopped playing games on iPhone/iPad because they constantly push you buy in-app purchases to continue. It destroys the enjoyment of the game and ends up costing a fortune.

 

[denisvj]

Moved away from my iPad Pro , tired of IAP and a lot of good indie titles not coming, only free titles with paywalls .

With Wife and a kid I can't sit in from of a TV and needed a portable gaming device , then Ninteno Switch came and omg this is all I wanted , AAA titles and my favorite indie games , premium games without IAP and .

 

[CampbellSoup]

This is why Nintendo Switch is so great. It takes what’s great about current mobile hardware and bundles it with great control options and a unique software library.

At some point, it should be as simple as buying a dock for your phone and universal controllers can allow anyone to use their phone like a Switch is used today.

There are still markets for console and pc due to them being able to introduce high end gaming before the tech can be miniaturized for mobile. Mobile is complimentary to existing consoles and PCs and allows typically-non-gamers to have a platform already in their pocket if they find a reason to use it that way.

Agree. The major failure was a combination of non-console-like games (littered with in app purchases), and the fact that Apple nor anyway else just made a real nice set of "Joy Con" attachments to go on an iPhone or work with an iPad (wireless or via lightning to recharge and keep using). The power of the device is there and maybe the graphics will be inferior, but the success of the Nintendo Switch demonstrates that high-quality, AAA games at a cost that can be taken on the go would be highly successful. Even better if single purchase allowed Cloud handoff to Apple TV when at home (in lieu of needing a dock for the iPhone/iPad). It's a combination of poor hardware to supplement a vast but lackluster space of mobile games.

Note: Lifelong console gamer and Apple fan / owner of PS4 Pro, Switch, iPhone X and iPad Pro.
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iOS is the most advanced and powerful gaming platform in the world. Coupled with the incredible performance and capabilities found in Apple devices such as iPhone X and iPad Pro, this is the place serious gamers now come to play.

Most "advanced" and "powerful" platform? An iPhone with iOS is more powerful and advanced than a PS4 Pro or Xbox One S?

 

[ChrisCW11]

It's all fine and dandy PR speak until you realize a large number of the top games also come out on Android at the same time, with the same features and performance quality as on iOS.

Also iOS is "NOT" homogeneous, not since iOS 11, where a large percentage of the customer base has not upgraded, and since older iPhone models do not support newer iOS models, there is still a lot of fragmentation in the iOS ecosystem.

Also considering that most app/game development platforms support parallel development, targeting iOS and Android easily, the gap between an iOS version and an Android version is often negligible these days. Sure, someone writing a Metal API game on iOS will have a harder time getting to Android, or someone using specialized AR Kit, but in the long run most game developers use cross-platform API's available on both platforms.

I agree that iOS is where a lot of game/app developers want to get on first, but Android is not that far behind and considering there are so many more Android users you will simply be losing money the longer you don't have an Android app out there.

 

[spiddyman007]

I don't even bother with mobile games anymore. They monetized them into oblivion. It's quite sad actually.

na. you just gotta know how to run the system, every time an add pops up you close the app and go back in. and fortunate is just a good way to have fun for a couple hours. don't spend money on it. theres some good games with no in app purchases like grid auto sport too

 

[ChrisCW11]

I'll never take iOS gaming seriously until they find a way to stop removing your games from existence on the app store after a few years. When I by a game - I expect it's availably for life, such as is the case with PC gaming and consoles. If I still own an iPhone in 20 years I damn well expect to be able to play all my old games. Because Apple has removed some of the classics I payed good money for - I will no longer support their con market.

iOS gaming is designed as a throwaway market for a throwaway generation. I'm not into that and have already made the mistake of giving Apple to much. I still buy a selection of well designed apps - but that's it. If I game It'll be on my Nintendo 3DS, WiiU, PS Vita, Switch etc. Were I can come back to my catalog continuously.

I have never seen a game disappear on iOS (or Android), not one that I was wanting to play years later anyways.

I don't think Apple has a habit of removing games just because they wanted to. The only reason for a game to disappear usually is either the developer no longer wanted to support it and keep it up to date with the latest OS versions, or the developer violated platform rules and Apple was forced to remove it.

At some point the platform owner (Apple) needs to make a decision where the quality and or performance of a game will degrade to a point where it is no longer feasible to support the antiquated API's that was used to develop it, and if the developer is disinterested in keeping the game code up-to-date, then really Apple has no choice but to remove it.

Phone platforms are far different then your consoles or hand-helds where the hardware and software OS running on them do not change much over they years and are required to support games developed for them.

Honestly you would not like your iPhone experience today if it was required to support ALL the API's and frameworks used to make a game or app from 10+ years ago.

And nobody payed "good" money for an iOS game. Even from the start most games were $0.99 to $4.99 at the most until the freemium model took over, and if you dumped hundreds into a game for Smurfberries or bucks, that is your own fault.

Finally, unless you deleted the game yourself just because it is not on the app store doesn't mean it can't be played on a legacy phone or iPod Touch. If you got rid of it expecting it to stay in the cloud forever, I don't think anybody has that expectation for mobile gaming.

 

[nwcs]

Times change

They do but that doesn’t make the incorrect statement any more true.

 

[Marshall73]

This close enough? https://gamevice.com/collections/mobile-console-gaming

Yeah, but you need full support from Apple to push it out, of course Apple would charge 500 bucks for the controller adaptor. Haha

 

[DNichter]

Yeah, but you need full support from Apple to push it out, of course Apple would charge 500 bucks for the controller adaptor. Haha

iOS and tvOS have supported controllers for some time now.

 

[DevNull0]

See the link below for more detail on the numbers. Obviously you can see the trend here through 2020. Mobile gaming is the most lucrative place for developers. That's true, Nintendo made a good choice there to play is both spaces.

https://newzoo.com/insights/article...-108-9-billion-in-2017-with-mobile-taking-42/

And for every person taking pictures with a DSLR, there are 100 using a smartphone as their primary camera. Smartphone cameras are a much larger and more lucrative market than DSLRs. It doesn't make the smartphone a better camera experience than a DSLR, it's reflective that for every possible category there are more casual occasional users than hardcore fans.

For every person with a $2000+ gaming rig spending $1000+/year on gaming software, there are 100+ casual people playing an occasional game on their phone. Going by your link, it makes the markets on the two platforms comparable in dollar value. But it doesn't make the smartphone a better gaming experience. Dedicated controllers, more GPU power than 1000 iPhones combined, and high speed gaming monitors are a much, much better gaming experience than playing on a phone. And if high end gaming remains a niche for 1% of the market it still remains a far better experience than mobile gaming.

 

[DNichter]

And for every person taking pictures with a DSLR, there are 100 using a smartphone as their primary camera. Smartphone cameras are a much larger and more lucrative market than DSLRs. It doesn't make the smartphone a better camera experience than a DSLR, it's reflective that for every possible category there are more casual occasional users than hardcore fans.

For every person with a $2000+ gaming rig spending $1000+/year on gaming software, there are 100+ casual people playing an occasional game on their phone. Going by your link, it makes the markets on the two platforms comparable in dollar value. But it doesn't make the smartphone a better gaming experience. Dedicated controllers, more GPU power than 1000 iPhones combined, and high speed gaming monitors are a much, much better gaming experience than playing on a phone. And if high end gaming remains a niche for 1% of the market it still remains a far better experience than mobile gaming.

I didn’t say anything about that, but okay. You gamers sure are sensitive.

 

[star-affinity]

Right. When they get on the same level as mobile, I'll say hello.
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I more so mean that Apple will likely create A series processors for their Macs in the short term future that will be very very powerful. With a huge developer base and a unified app store, it will certainly drive more advanced games being created.

Sounds good – looking forward.

Still think there will be difficulties in the short term future for A series processors to compete with the computational power of a dedicated desktop GPU. I mean Apple is even about to have official support for external GPUs (the macOS 10.13.4 update if I understand correctly). Just look at the size of a dedicated GPU compared to Apple's A series SoC – it's two different worlds both when it comes to size and computing power (and of course power requirements).

But again, things can change…

 

[DNichter]

Sounds good – looking forward.

Still think there will be difficulties in the short term future for A series processors to compete with the computational power of a dedicated desktop GPU. I mean Apple is even about to have official support for external GPUs (the macOS 10.13.4 update if I understand correctly). Just look at the size of a dedicated GPU compared to Apple's A series SoC – it's two different worlds both when it comes to size and computing power (and of course power requirements).

But again, things can change…

Yea I totally agree, don't think we are at that level yet, but I have been impressed with the A-series chip so far and I am sure Apple could make some noise here given the space.