Apple's Greg Joswiak Talks Mobile Gaming

[paulcons]

Almost since it's inception, Apple has thumbed it's nose at games, gamers and gaming. BUT mobile is a whole 'nother world... I recently tried a mobile games via my iPad. The business model is way, way different from the desktop guys (FWIW, my preference is for MMORPGs, I mostly enjoy the social aspect of them). I eventually put away the plastic on the mobile game I was playing... still trying to keep some contact with the people whose company I enjoyed, but that too is diminishing. Mobile game developers are the most greedy SoBs in the world, everything, but everything they do serves only to keep you spending like crazy. There were folks who had literally tens of thousands of dollars invested in games like Mobile Strike. I can be reasonably competitive in my desktop based MMORPG spending 50 bucks every 2 years, but using in-game gold I get by putting an hour or so each day to pay for the subscription. For the mobile game, MUCH more time devoted is necessary AND several hundred dollar EACH MONTH.

My fellow Mac folks, PLEASE don't ever fall into the money pit known as mobile gaming!

 

[DevNull0]

I didn’t say anything about that, but okay. You gamers sure are sensitive.

You were saying Mobile is becoming the focus of the gaming industry because lots of casual non-gamers are starting to play casual games on mobile.

 

[DNichter]

You were saying Mobile is becoming the focus of the gaming industry because lots of casual non-gamers are starting to play casual games on mobile.

Nope. All I said was that mobile gaming is a much more lucrative market for developers. It is, they make a ton of money off mobile games.

 

[DevNull0]

Nope. All I said was that mobile gaming is a much more lucrative market for developers. It is, they make a ton of money off mobile games.

You said:

Right. When they get on the same level as mobile, I'll say hello.

You're saying mobile on a higher playing field than PC/Console and mobile is so much better you'll ignore console and PC until they catch up (though it's clear you believe that never will and mobile will increase the lead you believe it has.

From the article you linked to, mobile is still trailing the market though growing faster and set to overtake it by 2020. So from a financial standpoint, PC/Console is still ahead of mobile.

So what do you mean by "when they get on the same level as mobile"?

As far as gaming experience, are you trying to say that a 4-10 inch relatively low-res screen with touch controls is somehow better than dedicated controls, a 65" 4k display, and several hundred times the processing/graphics power? That somehow, that experience has to catch up to moblie?

 

[DNichter]

You said:



You're saying mobile on a higher playing field than PC/Console and mobile is so much better you'll ignore console and PC until they catch up (though it's clear you believe that never will and mobile will increase the lead you believe it has.

From the article you linked to, mobile is still trailing the market though growing faster and set to overtake it by 2020. So from a financial standpoint, PC/Console is still ahead of mobile.

So what do you mean by "when they get on the same level as mobile"?

As far as gaming experience, are you trying to say that a 4-10 inch relatively low-res screen with touch controls is somehow better than dedicated controls, a 65" 4k display, and several hundred times the processing/graphics power? That somehow, that experience has to catch up to moblie?

Yes, that was a response to someone who typed "LOL" or the like from my first post, which was "iOS is the only place to be for developers". That is my comment about the article, which is about mobile gaming. My comment was focused on how iOS is a great place for developers when it comes to mobile games.

That's all. I didn't say anything about what you are describing, but I will if you want.

 

[Radon87000]

None of these compares with PC gaming.

 

[Stelph]

I don't even bother with mobile games anymore. They monetized them into oblivion. It's quite sad actually.

Actually thats not quite true, there are some excellent developers sticking out quality premium priced games like Rome:Total war, GRID:Autosport, X-com, CiviliVation IV - its more accurate to say that FTP games are considerably more successful which is true, but then as long as the FTP is implemented in a way thats non-invasive (i.e. its not pay to win) then its not a bad thing, non FTP gamers can win big - playing the new Shadowngun legends for example, which is basically mobile destiny, that makes total sense in a FTP setting, as a paid game destiny makes no sense

What is frustrating with mobile gaming is the massive opportunity that Apple missed and continues to refuse to take full advantage of - icloud support between mobile and the apple TV was doing what the switch can do years before it arrived, MFI controller support for years made it easy for devs to add controller support but its been left to rot without even an easy way to tell what games have support included (why tvOS was released without requiring controller support to be built into its games I will never know), and if they only courted games developers like Nvidia did to port games across to their shield platform then you would have some real stunners on tvOS and iOS, as it is its taking a few dedicated devs to bring AAA gaming so its slowly picking up but its in spite of not thanks to Apple

 

[tipoo]

"Console quality" has been thrown around since the 5 iirc, and there's always a console it can compare to (4S was console quality! That console being the Wii) on hardware performance, so just barely passable on technicalities.

But this time they really are creeping up there, the iPhone 8 has a better CPU and GPU even after throttling than the Switch undocked, and still a better CPU and pretty equal GPU when the Switch is docked.

The difference is in software title quality, where mobile lags far behind. The Switch can run a AAA game as impressive as Doom, while mobile games trail far behind that quality. I'd love Apple to fund some iOS gaming exclusives, especially for that actively cooled A10X ATV.

 

[Applemaniac7]

iOS is the most advanced and powerful gaming platform in the world. Coupled with the incredible performance and capabilities found in Apple devices such as iPhone X and iPad Pro, this is the place serious gamers now come to play.

Lol, I'm new around here, so arnt sure if you are serious or trolling, but come on.. have we forget about the ps4 pro? Or the mental 100 core custom built water cooled windows gaming rigs? But sure angry birds on a 4 inch screen rocks!!!

 

[LordVic]

Lol, I'm new around here, so arnt sure if you are serious or trolling, but come on.. have we forget about the ps4 pro? Or the mental 100 core custom built water cooled windows gaming rigs? But sure angry birds on a 4 inch screen rocks!!!

i was so confused about your post, than i realized you were talking to someone I had ignored... took a peek. yup now I remember why.

save your sanity. Nothing this poster says ever is factually accurate or even remotely in the realm of realistic.

 

[Applemaniac7]

i was so confused about your post, than i realized you were talking to someone I had ignored... took a peek. yup now I remember why.

save your sanity. Nothing this poster says ever is factually accurate or even remotely in the realm of realistic.

Lol, is he a paid Apple stooge? He speaks like a key notes so each, unreal....

 

[chucker23n1]

I play many games from the mid-to-late 90s still on my Windows 10 machine. Some run under Windows 10 without any help, like Alpha Centauri (1999), Half Life (1998), Starcraft (1998), Age of Empires II (1999), Jedi Knight (1997). Pretty much anything after ~2004 runs without too much work, such as Day of Defeat (2003), Unreal Tournament GOTY (2000), Civ III (2001), Half Life 2 (2004).

You ran Starcraft 1.0.0 in Windows 10?

Why then, does Blizzard bother making patches for it, such as 1.18.0, which (among other things):

– Improved compatibility with Windows 7, 8.1, and 10

(This is leaving aside the fact that Windows already does plenty of stuff built-in as compatibility layers.)

For any that don't run in Windows 10, it's easy to use DOSBOX or a Windows virtual machine (XP can work well for this). I have yet to come across a single piece of software, let alone game, that I can't still run one way or the other on my modern computer. Heck, a company I worked for still used software from around 1992 by launching a Windows 98 VM. Not a problem!

Yes. I specifically asked about running a game from twenty years ago without patches and without emulation. I'm quite aware you can patch games to make them compatible, or emulate or virtualize them to work in entirely different environments.

And that's great. But it's irrelevant to the discussion here, because the original point was about taking an existing iOS game that is no longer being maintained and running it 20 years later. Without maintenance, there's no patches. And virtualization on iOS isn't currently a thing.

I have iOS apps/games from just 2-3 years ago that are no longer supported and iOS updates broke 'em, and there's no way to revert back.

I've actually lost an iOS game I love to the great 32-bit purge of iOS 11, and that's sad.

But we don't actually want to live in a world where all the old stuff still works, because it would seriously hamper the potential for new stuff.

 

[Altis]

Yes. I specifically asked about running a game from twenty years ago without patches and without emulation. I'm quite aware you can patch games to make them compatible, or emulate or virtualize them to work in entirely different environments.

And that's great. But it's irrelevant to the discussion here, because the original point was about taking an existing iOS game that is no longer being maintained and running it 20 years later. Without maintenance, there's no patches. And virtualization on iOS isn't currently a thing.

Tons of old software works that hasn't been updated in ages.

Meanwhile, anything in iOS (or macOS for that matter) seems to be constant updating or it won't work very, very soon.

I've actually lost an iOS game I love to the great 32-bit purge of iOS 11, and that's sad.

But we don't actually want to live in a world where all the old stuff still works, because it would seriously hamper the potential for new stuff.

What's all this great "new stuff" that warrants not being able to use "old stuff"?

There's nothing inherently wrong with things that are older, especially when it comes to games. Chess is still popular after how long?

 

[chucker23n1]

Meanwhile, anything in iOS (or macOS for that matter) seems to be constant updating or it won't work very, very soon.

That's the price we pay for a connected world. It's not feasible to keep updating old software with security patches. Nobody would pay for it, and even if they did, nobody would want to keep maintaining the codebase.

 

[Altis]

That's the price we pay for a connected world. It's not feasible to keep updating old software with security patches. Nobody would pay for it, and even if they did, nobody would want to keep maintaining the codebase.

Nobody is saying the old software should be updated.

However, it wouldn't be too difficult to not break all the old stuff when updating the operating systems or allow for some compatibility mode.

The point people are making is that iOS is so incredibly locked down that you can't even install an old version of iOS to run your old software if you want to. You're stuck, and every iOS update has an exceedingly high chance of breaking any software that isn't updated.

 

[chucker23n1]

Nobody is saying the old software should be updated.

However, it wouldn't be too difficult to not break all the old stuff when updating the operating systems or allow for some compatibility mode.

As someone who's maintaining a ~12-year old codebase, it absolutely is difficult. It's a pain. It prevents you from making great strides forward, all the while offering limited benefits for the sake of legacy compatibility.

The point people are making is that iOS is so incredibly locked down that you can't even install an old version of iOS to run your old software if you want to.

True.

Maybe they'll eventually offer security updates for older releases. And maybe there'll be a compatibility layer at some point. Not holding my breath, though.

You're stuck, and every iOS update has an exceedingly high chance of breaking any software that isn't updated.

That seems a bit hyperbolic to me.

 

[Altis]

As someone who's maintaining a ~12-year old codebase, it absolutely is difficult. It's a pain. It prevents you from making great strides forward, all the while offering limited benefits for the sake of legacy compatibility.

What are these great strides we've had that allowing older software to continue working would have impeded?

It's great for developers as people rely on their updates for the software even just to work, so they're largely moving to the software-as-service (ie. subscription) model. In my humble opinion, this is overall a bad thing for consumers as they're stuck in these contracts and continuous payments.

I'm happy that I can still use Photoshop CS3 (2007) without touching a thing, despite it not having been updated and having now updated from Windows 7 through to 10. I don't think that allowing it to work properly has hindered whatever "great strides forward" they're making these days (I certainly haven't seen many on the desktop or iOS in years).

True.

Maybe they'll eventually offer security updates for older releases. And maybe there'll be a compatibility layer at some point. Not holding my breath, though.

It certainly is unlikely indeed. They wouldn't even have to go that far, just let people revert back at their own risk or in some kind of sandboxed compatibility mode.

That seems a bit hyperbolic to me.

It isn't hyperbolic. Heck, even macOS major releases break the Adobe suite half the time, which can be really bad for people who rely on it for their productivity.

The bottom line is that iOS as a super locked-down operating system makes it so users can do pretty much nothing when an update breaks an app they use. They're at the mercy of the developers updating it (which of course some won't keep doing). It's a rather unusual situation in computing where backwards-compatibility is rarely an issue.

 

[chucker23n1]

What are these great strides we've had that allowing older software to continue working would have impeded?

Are you saying iOS 1 and 11 are virtually the same?

It's great for developers as people rely on their updates for the software even just to work, so they're largely moving to the software-as-service (ie. subscription) model. In my humble opinion, this is overall a bad thing for consumers as they're stuck in these contracts and continuous payments.

And yet, people aren't really offering an alternative suggestion.

I'm happy that I can still use Photoshop CS3 (2007) without touching a thing, despite it not having been updated and having now updated from Windows 7 through to 10.

You can, but it's irresponsible to do so, because Adobe no longer provides security updates for CS3. It's only through luck that nobody is exploiting the sheer number of outdated, never-patched machines out there as, for instance, zombies in a botnet.

I don't think that allowing it to work properly has hindered whatever "great strides forward" they're making these days (I certainly haven't seen many on the desktop or iOS in years).

It certainly is unlikely indeed. They wouldn't even have to go that far, just let people revert back at their own risk or in some kind of sandboxed compatibility mode.

It isn't hyperbolic. Heck, even macOS major releases break the Adobe suite half the time, which can be really bad for people who rely on it for their productivity.

The bottom line is that iOS as a super locked-down operating system makes it so users can do pretty much nothing when an update breaks an app they use. They're at the mercy of the developers updating it (which of course some won't keep doing). It's a rather unusual situation in computing where backwards-compatibility is rarely an issue.

I understand your position. I also understand Apple's.

 

[Altis]

Are you saying iOS 1 and 11 are virtually the same?

Of course not. But there's nothing stopping iOS 11 from being able to run apps from earlier versions of iOS. The beauty of it is that the earlier stuff took a fraction of the resources available today to run.

I know it doesn't really work with iOS as well as with other operating systems due to its locked-down nature.

And yet, people aren't really offering an alternative suggestion.

SAS is the alternative. Owning software has always been the standard.

You can, but it's irresponsible to do so, because Adobe no longer provides security updates for CS3. It's only through luck that nobody is exploiting the sheer number of outdated, never-patched machines out there as, for instance, zombies in a botnet.

That's where the operating system comes in. You can easily sandbox an app/block it from internet and run it without risk.

What's irresponsible is expecting people to continuously pay hundreds of dollars per year to keep the application "up-to-date" as the software matures and people no longer need to buy new versions every year or two. With Photoshop, CS3 does everything I need it to. CS6 would be nice and I'll probably buy that at some point.

 

[Applemaniac7]

Of course not. But there's nothing stopping iOS 11 from being able to run apps from earlier versions of iOS. The beauty of it is that the earlier stuff took a fraction of the resources available today to run.

I know it doesn't really work with iOS as well as with other operating systems due to its locked-down nature.



SAS is the alternative. Owning software has always been the standard.



That's where the operating system comes in. You can easily sandbox an app/block it from internet and run it without risk.

What's irresponsible is expecting people to continuously pay hundreds of dollars per year to keep the application "up-to-date" as the software matures and people no longer need to buy new versions every year or two. With Photoshop, CS3 does everything I need it to. CS6 would be nice and I'll probably buy that at some point.

Illustrator CC 17 is a dog, I more more than happy using CC 13, we skipped 15 as it had issues, then we'e told to move onto 17, big mistake.. just cos it' newer doesnt make it better..

 

[Altis]

Illustrator CC 17 is a dog, I more more than happy using CC 13, we skipped 15 as it had issues, then we'e told to move onto 17, big mistake.. just cos it' newer doesnt make it better..

Indeed.

If it has all the features you want and works well, you're good to go.

 

[Bruno Jenso]

I have never seen a game disappear on iOS (or Android), not one that I was wanting to play years later anyways.

I don't think Apple has a habit of removing games just because they wanted to. The only reason for a game to disappear usually is either the developer no longer wanted to support it and keep it up to date with the latest OS versions, or the developer violated platform rules and Apple was forced to remove it.

At some point the platform owner (Apple) needs to make a decision where the quality and or performance of a game will degrade to a point where it is no longer feasible to support the antiquated API's that was used to develop it, and if the developer is disinterested in keeping the game code up-to-date, then really Apple has no choice but to remove it.

Phone platforms are far different then your consoles or hand-helds where the hardware and software OS running on them do not change much over they years and are required to support games developed for them.

Honestly you would not like your iPhone experience today if it was required to support ALL the API's and frameworks used to make a game or app from 10+ years ago.

And nobody payed "good" money for an iOS game. Even from the start most games were $0.99 to $4.99 at the most until the freemium model took over, and if you dumped hundreds into a game for Smurfberries or bucks, that is your own fault.

Finally, unless you deleted the game yourself just because it is not on the app store doesn't mean it can't be played on a legacy phone or iPod Touch. If you got rid of it expecting it to stay in the cloud forever, I don't think anybody has that expectation for mobile gaming.

Yep some fair points - I guess I did expect a bit much of iOS gaming legacy. I did foolishly plow too much into iOS games as soon as the app store started. On reflection I regret buying many of those games, which is my bad - c'est la vie. But some of those games where quite special - and did disappear from my purchase history. I guess I'm just disappointed I can't go back to them one day. But I am more accepting now of the nature of iOS gaming and will invest more in other platforms for any games that appear to be more than a throwaway quick fix. Anything with depth and lasting appeal I'll by elsewhere. Thanks for your good points.
[doublepost=1523633816][/doublepost]

What 1998 game can you play, without emulation, without patches, on a current computer?

I see what your saying - on PC I'd say quite a few - but your point is very valid.