Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Tinder isn't just a dating app - it's also a social network where people message each other. A bit like iMessage.

Therefore Apple and Tinder are direct competitors even if they don't offer exactly the same products. App Store rules like 3.1.3 (which prohibits communicating details about your business to your customers) are clearly an abuse of market power and that's one of the things Apple needs to change.

Ok, but the article (and the Reuters article) specifically says the scope was narrowed to dating apps. Not social networks, not iMessage competitors, and didn't include discussion of business details beyond in-app purchases.

Whatever else Tinder might be, they were relevant here because they are a dating app and this ruling was about dating apps.
 
Last edited:
Users can choose. Developers can't really choose - they need to be on both platforms.

Or if they're only going to be on one platform, a lot of them pick iOS because demographically it tends to have a more profitable user base.
Don't need to be, choose to be. Unless the Dutch also have some law about apps needing to be cross-platform.
 
Judge disagreed with that.
Not the final judge, and not the final law.
Laws will change around the world(incl. in the U.S.), and even this judge won’t be able to say something against these new laws. Wait for the EU and the overall outcome, your jaw will drop.

✅ Third-party Payment
🔲 Third-party AppStore
🔲 Sideloading
🔲 OpenNFC
🔲 Different Browser Engines

Just a matter of time till the other checkboxes become ✅, too
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Rowdy07 and 0924487
Why!? I already have PayPal installed and signed in, why couldn't I use that!?
Because Apple itself is a big player and PayPal is expensive. Why would they want to deal with additional integrations and pay high fees when they can do it themselves for less? Registering a card once really isn't that much work.

lets fully set up Apple Pay as its better and secure...except that's useless to me as I almost never make in app purchase
In-app purchases aren't done with Apple Pay (so far, Paddle...).

I cannot use Apple Pay on my Desktop.
But you can use it to shop in the real world. Unlike PayPal. And it is actually great.

Back to your point: There are tons of websites and services that don't offer PayPal. Registering your card once more really shouln't get you worked up.
 
Wait for the EU and the overall outcome, your jaw will drop down.

✅ Third-party Payment
🔲 Third-party AppStore
🔲 Sideloading
🔲 OpenNFC
🔲 Different Browser Engines

Just a matter of time till the other checkboxes become ✅, too

The transformation to Android is almost complete!

Let's hope they also force Apple to add underscreen fingerprint readers and icons we can place anywhere on the screen. You know... the real important stuff.

I'd also like to play Halo on Playstation... can they work on that too?

:p
 
  • Like
Reactions: Krizoitz
And you’re absolutely right about the ignorance over how software distribution worked before the App Store. If they only knew, 30% to access 1.6B users would seem like the deal of the century.

Yeah, but imagine if I wanted to sell kumquats via gift cards through a Target popup inside a Wallmart in every nation of the world and process the transactions through a Raspberry Pi in a broom closet on the Isle of Man. Now do you see why Apple is a monopoly?
 
Users can choose. Developers can't really choose - they need to be on both platforms.

Or if they're only going to be on one platform, a lot of them pick iOS because demographically it tends to have a more profitable user base.
Developers can absolutely choose. No one has an inherent right to be an iOS developer, its a choice they make based on whether they think they can make enough money for it to be worthwhile or not. Running a business involves overhead, whether thats rent, or electricity, or fees. You can try and negotiate or shop around for the best deal, but that doesn't mean you'll always get it or someone should be forced to give it to you (absent true monopoly situations where there IS no effective choice).

The fact that iOS is, in general, a more profitable user base is a factor of the decisions Apple has made, they created that user base. If others want to benefit from it they have to agree to play by Apples rules. Its either worth it to them to do so, or its not. Its perfectly fine if its not, again, being an iOS developer is a choice, not a right. If a developer doesn't like the terms Apple (or Google, or Microsoft, etc.) offer they can do the following:
  1. Choose not to develop on that platform
  2. Try to privately negotiate a better deal with that platform owner
  3. Try to publicly convince the platform owner to change their terms, including using public criticism to pressure them to do so
  4. Develop on a competing platform and demonstrate a compelling user case so that the platform owner they don't choose will want to offer them a better deal
What they should NOT be able to do, IMO is force the platform owner to change its rules to what they want by law, ESPECIALLY when doing so reduces customer choice/is against customers interests.
 
Developers can absolutely choose. No one has an inherent right to be an iOS developer, its a choice they make based on whether they think they can make enough money for it to be worthwhile or not. Running a business involves overhead, whether thats rent, or electricity, or fees. You can try and negotiate or shop around for the best deal, but that doesn't mean you'll always get it or someone should be forced to give it to you (absent true monopoly situations where there IS no effective choice).
Couldn't agree more.

And if I may add, releasing an iOS app doesn't mean automatically success. Call me old school, but success always comes from a good idea and a ton of hard work. Regardless of whether it is iOS or Android, you may have a chance to be successful if you have a good idea and put in a lot of hard work.
 
And you’re absolutely right about the ignorance over how software distribution worked before the App Store. If they only knew, 30% to access 1.6B users would seem like the deal of the century.
Apple didn't invent the internet, and you both are ignoring how wonderful software distribution worked (and still works) without the AppStore.

Without the AppStore I can have access to 4.7B active internet users worldwide, directly through the so called ungated internet.

Just because the AppStore has 1.6B users(I didn't check if this is true), doesn't mean that all these 1.6B users runs across any App they have. Just like 4.7B active internet users does not run over every website.

Advertising in and outside the AppStore is the key to gain new users, but Apple is playing a gatekeeper here, choosing the ones who can succeed, getting a piece of the cake for nothing, except gatekeeping.
 
As for "access to 1.3B users"... our website is available to anyone via a google search. That's 4.3B users. We have no problems finding new users without paying a cent. And no customer has ever complained or hesitated to pay us directly.
In that case there's no problem, you've made a business decision based on your companies priorities. And Apple has made a business decision based on theres. You have both done what is best for your company, as you should.

As a consumer I can tell you I have no interest in your app, whatever it is, because IAP is a deal breaker for me in almost all cases. I'm willing to forgo an app rather than set up yet another account to have to pay for it. I don't want to have to sign up on your site directly. I don't want to have to sign up for some third party service either. For me, the benefit of using Apple's system is high. BUT its totally valid if you, as a business, decide its not worth your cost/time to cater to me as a customer. Thats fine! Not every company has to serve every potential customer. Apple has never been a company that tries to be everything to everyone and that is true with the App Store as well. Either its worth it for you or its not. Either a given feature is worth it to you or its not. Advocating for Apple to change it? Cool. Forcing them to change it by law? Not cool.
 
Yeah, but imagine if I wanted to sell kumquats via gift cards through a Target popup inside a Wallmart in every nation of the world and process the transactions through a Raspberry Pi in a broom closet on the Isle of Man. Now do you see why Apple is a monopoly?
I think I see the premise for a new Apple TV+ series. They clearly don’t have enough kumquat inclusion in their current programming.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Analog Kid
but Apple is playing a gatekeeper here, choosing the ones who can succeed, getting a piece of the cake for nothing, except gatekeeping.
Wrong. Apple is ABSOLUTELY providing value. If it wasn't no one would be using Apple devices and no developers would be making apps for them. Numerous studies have shown that iOS users spend more on average than Android users. If you know that one group is more likely to pay you money for your product thats a benefit. Further, while not perfect, Apples App Store vetting process means I, as the end user, have more trust and willingness to give your app a chance than I would otherwise. And the lack of friction Apples In-App Purchase process provides means I'm ALSO more willing to pay for things In App than I otherwise would. These (and more) are all things that add value.

Now, you, as a developer, are absolutely free to say that what Apple provides is not worth it to you or at least not worth the cost Apple charges. You shouldn't be forced to develop for iOS if you don't want to after all. But Apple shouldn't be forced to LET you if you don't like their terms and costs. Both sides have a choice, just because you don't get what you want doesn't mean you didn't have a choice.
 
I don’t like the fact that Apple can just ban apps for no legitimate reason and those apps have no way of reaching iOS users.
And its perfectly valid that you feel that way. But just because you don't like the way someone runs their store doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to. Since you have the option to move to a system where you can install those apps you have a choice. Some of us prefer Apples approach, warts and all, over the alternative. Forcing Apple to change it takes away our choice and the benefits it provides. How is that better?


Allowing open source apps to be installed on iOS is very important.
To you. And some other people. Its not to me, and also other people. I've said it before and I'll say it again, individual experience is not universal experience. Its fine for you to want it to be different. Its fine for me to want it to be the way it is. We can both voice our opinions and even try and convince Apple we are right. And when Apple makes a choice we disagree with we can be mad, and when it makes a choice we agree with we can be happy. But its wrong for you/people who agree with you to try and force Apple to change when you already have other options, especially when that means taking away the options of others.
 
Not the final judge, and not the final law.
Laws will change around the world(incl. in the U.S.), and even this judge won’t be able to say something against these new laws. Wait for the EU and the overall outcome, your jaw will drop.

✅ Third-party Payment
🔲 Third-party AppStore
🔲 Sideloading
🔲 OpenNFC
🔲 Different Browser Engines

Just a matter of time till the other checkboxes become ✅, too

you forget the third party OS.
 
How many world-class tech companies are based out of the Netherlands?
Quite alot, look up profit funneling.

Every software multinational with enough common sense to deploy a tax mitigation strategy will run shell companies to funnel profits from EU MEMBERS -> NL -> IL and pay minimal tax.

This is a landmark case and the dutch know it, those tall blonde beasts.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: 0924487
And its perfectly valid that you feel that way. But just because you don't like the way someone runs their store doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to. Since you have the option to move to a system where you can install those apps you have a choice. Some of us prefer Apples approach, warts and all, over the alternative. Forcing Apple to change it takes away our choice and the benefits it provides. How is that better?



To you. And some other people. Its not to me, and also other people. I've said it before and I'll say it again, individual experience is not universal experience. Its fine for you to want it to be different. Its fine for me to want it to be the way it is. We can both voice our opinions and even try and convince Apple we are right. And when Apple makes a choice we disagree with we can be mad, and when it makes a choice we agree with we can be happy. But its wrong for you/people who agree with you to try and force Apple to change when you already have other options, especially when that means taking away the options of others.
You can choose to not install, why would you prevent others from having the choice?

It’s like, if you don’t like hunting, don’t. It’s that simple. You don’t go around and make sure no one can hunt.
 
If it wasn't no one would be using Apple devices and no developers would be making apps for them.
Most people buy primarily iPhones because the life style and/or as a status symbol, not because of the AppStore nor because Ecosystem. Just like others buy Louis Vuitton handbags instead of a decent health friendly backpack. This is exactly why Apple is going this route, look at their site, it looks like made for fashion victims, their old iPods Ads reflects this, too.

And of course after a while you have to gain access to these lifestyle ads influenced people... and that's where the monopoly/duopoly circle closes.

But Verstager/EU and many other Countries are coming to the rescue!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rowdy07
Most people buy primarily iPhones because the life style and/or as a status symbol, not because of the AppStore nor because Ecosystem. Just like others buy Louis Vuitton handbags instead of a decent health friendly backpack. This is exactly why Apple is going this route, look at their site, it looks like made for fashion victims, their old iPods Ads reflects this, too.

And of course after a while you have to gain access to these lifestyle ads influenced people... and that's where the monopoly/duopoly circle closes.

But Verstager/EU and many other Countries are coming to the rescue!
Nicholas Ghesquiere's Louis Vuitton is so trashy
 
At some point you can expect the cost of developer tools to go up significantly. Developers will also have to pay license fees for the programming interfaces.

Exactly. Apple will simply find other ways to recoup any lost revenue.
Possibly even users having to pay for OS upgrades.

I doubt that as it would limit adoption as well as upset users.

Operating a business is not free, so the revenue will have to come from somewhere.

Exactly, and the small developers may get hurt the worst depending on what Apple does. A store full of freemium apps with 3rd party payments so Apple does not get a cut is not in the future. developers may wind up with significant costs before they make penny, which will make it hard for a small developer to make a go of it.
 
Developers can absolutely choose. No one has an inherent right to be an iOS developer, its a choice they make based on whether they think they can make enough money for it to be worthwhile or not. Running a business involves overhead, whether thats rent, or electricity, or fees. You can try and negotiate or shop around for the best deal, but that doesn't mean you'll always get it or someone should be forced to give it to you (absent true monopoly situations where there IS no effective choice).

The fact that iOS is, in general, a more profitable user base is a factor of the decisions Apple has made, they created that user base. If others want to benefit from it they have to agree to play by Apples rules. Its either worth it to them to do so, or its not. Its perfectly fine if its not, again, being an iOS developer is a choice, not a right. If a developer doesn't like the terms Apple (or Google, or Microsoft, etc.) offer they can do the following:
  1. Choose not to develop on that platform
  2. Try to privately negotiate a better deal with that platform owner
  3. Try to publicly convince the platform owner to change their terms, including using public criticism to pressure them to do so
  4. Develop on a competing platform and demonstrate a compelling user case so that the platform owner they don't choose will want to offer them a better deal
What they should NOT be able to do, IMO is force the platform owner to change its rules to what they want by law, ESPECIALLY when doing so reduces customer choice/is against customers interests.
And Apple can choose where to do and not to do business. Apple has no inherent right to do business wherever and however they want. Its a choice they make based on whether they think they can make enough money for it to be worthwhile or not. If Apple doesn’t like a country’s laws, they can do business elsewhere. There are certainly many more countries that they could choose to operate in than there are other platforms for developers to choose to develop on.
 
Not the final judge, and not the final law.
Laws will change around the world(incl. in the U.S.), and even this judge won’t be able to say something against these new laws. Wait for the EU and the overall outcome, your jaw will drop.

✅ Third-party Payment
🔲 Third-party AppStore
🔲 Sideloading
🔲 OpenNFC
🔲 Different Browser Engines

Just a matter of time till the other checkboxes become ✅, too
Okay, I'll wait. As shown in the epic vs apple trial, things don't always go the way some people want. (but sometimes they do)
 
You can choose to not install, why would you prevent others from having the choice?

It’s like, if you don’t like hunting, don’t. It’s that simple. You don’t go around and make sure no one can hunt.
Because in order to allow things like side loading or 3rd party stores Apple would have to compromise features that already exist. It would create a greater security attack surface for one thing, meaning higher odds of problems for me even if I never install such apps. But even if I don’t want to do so I might HAVE to do so (and likely would). As soon as 3rd party/side loading becomes an option major developers like Facebook, Google, Microsoft, etc are going to start using that instead because it allows them to have greater control over their apps AND take a bigger cut themselves. Suddenly Apps that were limited or prevented from tracking my personal info due to App Store rules no longer are. Suddenly Apps that allowed me to conveniently manage my in-app purchases through one trusted source (Apple), no longer do. There will be an effect that goes beyond the people who want to use 3rd party stores and side loading and it will be negative for those of us who prefer the current system.

TL;DR: You’re wrong that it won’t affect those of us who don’t want to use it.

And of course you already have the choice to get an Android device which allows you to do exactly what you want.

To use your hunting analogy, it’s like trying to force a nature preserve to become a hunting ground just because you can’t be bothered to go to the existing hunting ground. No one forced you to go to the preserve in the first place. No one forced a developer or user to get or keep using the iPhone.
 
Last edited:
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.